Blackwater Muskogee tribe

[Moma_porcupine]

This group has come up a few times in other threads . They have an ambassador in Germany   .....

http://web.archive.org/web/20040804175908/http://theblackwaterband.tripod.com/id17.htm

Tribal Leadership
Chief:  Robert Watson  "Bear Hunter"
Vice Chief:  Timothy Tolbert "Turkey Caller"
Secretary:  Sarah White "Bear Heart Who Sings"
Treasurer: Dobbie Williamson "Cloud Thunder"
Tvstvnvke & Representative to Germany : Larry D. Nichols "Strong Wolf"Tribal Tvstvnvke: Leon Watson

Council Members:                                                                                 
Steve Ford "Screaming Eagle"
Aubrey Freeman "Lone Eagle"
Donnie Thompson "Lightning Bear"
Jeane Nichols "October Moon"
Bobby Tyree "Winddancer"

Registered Agent:
Brenda Tolbert "Emerald Waters"
Tribal Mother:
Diane Watson "Fire Wolf"

Tribal Princes
Erin Ford "Rising Fawn"                                                         


CHIEF ROBERT WATSON  "BEAR HUNTER"
 TRIBAL MOTHER DIANE WATSON "FIRE WOLF"

A picture of a few of the tribal leaders ....
 http://mitglied.lycos.de/langer_frank/newsletter12.htm

http://home.arcor.de/muskokee/pow.htm

Reception in Untergruppenbach Creek Indians fight for  their rights

 "This day is a step in the  history of our tribe," said visibly moved Strong Wolf.  His real name is Larry Nichols.  He is the brother of Creek-Häuptlings Blue Eyes and lives in Heilbronn.  "We need help so that our American government recognizes as a people," said Nichols, Europe ambassadors of his tribe.   And the official reception nUntergruppenbach show the American leadership that people of other countries recognize the Indians. Mayor Haiber went even further: "If they go back home, you have the certainty that this new found friends."

Does anyone know if the Blackwater Muskokee are recognized as a tribe by the federaly recognized Muskogee /Creek ?  That would seem to be important if they are soliticing politicians in Europe to put presure on the US government to recognize them , and calling themselves ambassadors for their tribe.


The Blackwater Muskogee also seem to be involved in giving Indian names and phoney certifiations to Europeans ...

http://www.nativevue.org/blog/?p=547

Three thousand people walk past the craft tables, watch my film, and attend the Aztec fire dance presentation. Taking up the largest area is a roped off museum style display with mannequins dressed like plains Indians, and inside the tipi is Berndt Briefs (not his real name).

He turns to me, beats his chest and says something in what sounds like Klingon. He quickly translates, "my name" he says, "is Apple Inside Out." A quick thought runs through my mind of what an apple really is, it's an Indian who is white on the inside and … well, I think you get the picture.

He reaches into his briefcase and pulls out a laminated Indian Name Certificate from the Muskogee Creek Nation, he was named by Chief Larry Nichols of the Blackwater Band of Lower Muskogee(Heilbronn), Germany.

Larry Nichols is Muskogee Creek and makes it his job to fight the Indian cliches and those who promote it.

I doubt giving out Indian names to Europeans helps ....

Chief Larry Nichols says this character never earned the name, "he wanted the name because he felt like his heart was red."

So maybe this certificate was Larry's idea of a joke ? If so, the guy who got it didn't seem to understand that

Germans are genuinely interested in the Indian culture, so much so that they even taken to learning Indian languages. Larry teaches Creek if there is enough interest.

There have even been people who look Indian but are not Indian, and still claim to be Indian, even so far as to claim to be descendants of Geronimo.

"Some fall for the imposter here." Larry says, "we have caught several imposters. They have their stories worked out right down to the name of their fictional Indian grandparents, and their story is believable and on track with our experiences in residential school, up to the contemporary racism against Indians."

Just because people point out an imposter doesn't mean their claims about themselves are true.

The German people's only real interest in Indians is the clichè, Indian on horseback. A real Indian is not accepted until he looks like something he's not, a part of the cliché.

In the movie Thunderheart,  the FBI character "Cooch" says that we are a conquered people. But we're not. We're a treatied people, with rights like any independent nation. For co-operation, collaboration and co-existence. Instead we have been intimidated, interferred with, interned and institutionalized.

Chief Nichols says, "There is alot of opportunity for our North American Indian youth, the possibilities are endless."

I recall an elder who spoke at a treaty governance gathering on my reserve. He said, "we are not the descendants of a once proud race of people, we are the same people."

The Blackwater Muskogee have a reserve?
 

"So," Chief Nichols says. "The struggle continues, for respect. The opportunity is there for us to represent ourselves as who we are."

But who are these people? Just because they claim to be concerned about respect for Native rights doesn't mean they are a tribe or that they are of American Indian descent.

If these guys are just a bunch of PODIAs claiming to be a tribe and Cheifs claiming to be ambassadors in Europe, that can't be good for  creating respect for the real American Indian people and soverienty of real tribes...   

It sounds like the Blackwater Muskogee also is handing out some kind of memberships to people in Europe claiming to be descended from other tribes . Reportedly it was this group that gave Tonya Billington some kind of tribal membership certificate ...

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1006

 
Grey Wolf & Tonya
Reply #35 on: January 20, 2007, 12:49:00 am »
dabosijigwokush

The Blackwater Tribe of The Lower Mvskokee ring a bell thats whats on you addopation forgies the real name is The Blackwater Band of Lower Mvskokee inc. a 501 c3 club not FEDERALLY NON-RECOGNIZED not STATE RECOGNIZED not FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED a club and that is all not native bye any means

Re: Grey Wolf & Tonya
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2007, 03:07:13 am »
loudcrow

I contacted the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee regarding the certicates FB has so proudly displayed on his website. They have informed me their tribe (which is actually a clan) perfomed a wedding ceremony for this couple because they had been led to believe T/T/T was American and Cherokee. Although they would not go into any great detail, they told me their was an incident in the UK between this couple and some recognized Native Americans. T/T/T was asked to provide them with proof of her being part American and proof of being Cherokee. When the proof was not presented, they had no other alternative other than to revoke their Honorary Memberships and have since turned their backs on this pair.

[zoi lightfoot]

Nope the Blackwater Band is not officialy recognized by the Federal Gov,yes Francis Billington and Tonya Billington were given 'honorary'membership by the Blackwater clan.Yes the Billingtons assaulted members of the Indian Nations residing overseas and their 'honary membership was revoked as a result and yes Tonya Billington still falsely asserts she is Cherokee.Larry Nicholes does exist as does the Black water Band and many other notable non federaly recognized Bands whom the Indian Nations themselves recognize.Tell me moma,is your query in regard to Larry Nicholes who has attempted to halt the shamastic progress of these two correctly discribed"pains in the ass" The Blackwater Band or the Billingtons themselves?
I raised this matter in my statement to the autonomous sgs,interest groups and charities last year.a statement which was on this site for some reason if memory serves me.

[loudcrow]

Moma Porcupine, I am quite curious about what appears to be insinuations
and I have some questions I would like to ask in regards to your post.

1. Have you come to the conclusion Native Americans residing in
    Europe cannot possibly be considered Ambassadors for their
    people? Do you not think they "represent" their nations in Europe?

2. I'm a bit confused about the link to the pictures of their tribal leaders.
    Are we supposed to view the pictures and determine their ethnicity?

3.  Do you think it's wrong for Native Americans living in Europe
     to enlist the aid of European governments,  leaders, etc.  to pressure
     the US/Canadian governments about Native American issues?

4.  What has made you come to the conclusion the Blackwater Band of
     the Lower Muskokee are not Native American?

You quote:
I recall an elder who spoke at a treaty governance gathering on my reserve. He said, "we are not the descendants of a once proud race of people, we are the same people."

This was a quote made by John "Blackbird" Summers,  Cree, in a rather scathing article he wrote
about German Hobbyists.  Your quote is a small portion of that article and, when taken somewhat
out of context, can be misleading.

Your comment:
The Blackwater Muskogee have a reserve?

I'm assuming you are Canadian since Americans call them reservations or rez for short.
I didn't realize a tribe needed a reserve (reservation)  in order to be authentic.  I am
assuming you are referring to John "Blackbird" Summer's comment about his reserve.

Your quote:
If these guys are just a bunch of PODIAs ......

I'm not sure what PODIA means. Could you define PODIA  please?

Your quote:
Just because people point out an imposter doesn't mean their claims about themselves are true.

Larry Nichols had 4 lawsuits filed against him in Germany by Henry Reyna
because Larry Nichols had ruined Henry's reputation and wallet by saying he was
not Native American. Henry dropped the first 3 lawsuits but was foolish
enough to proceed with the 4th one. Larry Nichols and Elizabeth Roemer
were required by the German court to produce documents supporting their
claims of being Native American as was Henry Reyna.  Both Larry and
Elizabeth submitted their enrollment cards and genealogy and, during the
course of the trial, their documents were deemed by the German court as
being valid.  Henry's documents consisted of  a note written by his "father"
which simply stated he is Apache and descended from Geronimo. This note was
notarized but held no weight in the German court.  Larry and Elizabeth supplied the German
court with Henry's genealogy (done by Elizabeth) and Henry did not
protest or state the genealogy was incorrect. The judge simply did not believe
Geronimo hooked up with Henry's great-great grandmother (age 21)
at age 73  and sent her off to Mexico with the horses when he learned
of her pregnancy so she and the baby would be safe.  As far as I know, both
Larry Nichols and Elizabeth Roemer are well-respected within the Native American
community both at home and in Europe and have always been on the front line fighting
for the rights of all Natives. If you have information to the contrary, please share that with us.

Indeed, the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee presented
T/T/T and Francis Billington with honorary membership certificates.
This is NOT a tribal membership and offers no benefits whatsover.
Their honorary memberships have been revoked because of T/T/T's
failure,  after numerous requests, to produce documents which
support her claim of being American and Cherokee.  Now I don't
claim to be up to date on every thread/post here, but  I believe
we are waiting for Mrs. Billington to meet with Zoi Lightfoot with
her birth certificate and/or passport.  I could be wrong, but I
don't think Mrs. Billington has responded to Zoi's request which was
made over 3 weeks ago.  Perhaps Zoi will read this post and can
update us about the status of this requested meeting.

You quote:
The Blackwater Tribe of The Lower Mvskokee ring a bell thats whats on you addopation forgies the real name is The Blackwater Band of Lower Mvskokee inc. a 501 c3 club not FEDERALLY NON-RECOGNIZED not STATE RECOGNIZED not FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED a club and that is all not native bye any means

This was a post made by someone who signed in as guest and seems to
think the Blackwater Band is a club and is not native. How much credibility
should be given to someone who does not identify themselves, does
a drive-by and offers no proof of his own claims?  Do Natives HAVE to be
state and/or federally recognized in order to be Native? If so, I'll let the Natives
in Virginia know they aren't Native .

[zoi lightfoot]

I can indeed comfirm that as Francis and Tonya Billington are dropping in and reading this site,I did indeed respond to their PM to myself publicaly on this site,whereby I made it clear i would not meet them and them alone at some vague cafe in London UK.That I expected ALL parties to gather up their paperwork and meet me face to face.The Blackwater Band can and has a right to speak for itself.To date Mr and Mrs Billington have not taken me up on this.However if anyone else is curious as to who I AM talking about,please take the time to look through the Grey Wolf and Tonya thread.

[crazyeagle]

I am genuinely curious Moma Porcupine as to your interest in the Blackwater Band, as to date I have not seen or heard of any fraudulent activities there in the US or Germany.But you do seem to have an avid interest going on with them..is it idle curiousity or do you have information which pertains to this particular Nation and its people as I fail to see where this thread is going?

Linda Lou

 

[educatedindian]

1. Have you come to the conclusion Native Americans residing in
    Europe cannot possibly be considered Ambassadors for their
    people? Do you not think they "represent" their nations in Europe?
...

3.  Do you think it's wrong for Native Americans living in Europe
     to enlist the aid of European governments,  leaders, etc.  to pressure
     the US/Canadian governments about Native American issues?

Momma P has been here quite a bit longer, so unless you were to check back through the archives, you probably would not be aware of one thing:

Some exploiters tell Europeans that they are official "ambassadors" of their tribes, and in some cases the tribes are themselves not real either. The Washitaws, for example. And some time ago, Annika reported an exploiter who passed himself off as a "tribal ambassador" in Sweden. Again, both of those happened some time ago.

If you're talking about NDNs being ambassadors in the same sense that all visitors are ambassadors when they travel or live abroad, then I see your point. But Larry Nichols is clearly not claiming to be that. If you mean an actual official post in an actual tribal govt, I have to say I've never heard of one, and don't think any of the tribes with fed recog have them, in Europe or anywhere else.

I realize some activists and activist groups do work with Europeans, urging them to pass resolutions through the European parliament or UN. I met some of those same people when I traveled over there myself. But again, I don't know of a single tribal govt with fed recog who has an official post with someone devoted to doing that.

[Moma_porcupine]

zoi lightfoot

Larry Nicholes does exist as does the Black water Band and many other notable non federaly recognized Bands whom the Indian Nations themselves recognize.

I think that is the most important point- whether their closest federally recognized relatives say "Yes this is a tribe". But I don't just mean a few eccentric individuals. When these unrecognized tribes are real , it is something almost every member of the federally recognized tribe acknowledges. If the Muskogee Blackwater band has this recognition it is probably legit. I'm just not sure it does .

Tell me moma,is your query in regard to Larry Nicholes who has attempted to halt the shamastic progress of these two correctly discribed"pains in the ass" The Blackwater Band or the Billingtons themselves?

My query was about the Black water band .

I raised this matter in my statement to the autonomous sgs,interest groups and charities last year.a statement which was on this site for some reason if memory serves me.

Yes I think that statement and some questions it raised are here;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.0

Zoi i'm curious, as you have mentioned being a legal advisor ...are you actually a lawyer with a law degree and you are licenced to practice law ? Or do you just do some sort of free lance advocacy work ?     

loudcrow

1. Have you come to the conclusion Native Americans residing in
    Europe cannot possibly be considered Ambassadors for their
    people? Do you not think they "represent" their nations in Europe?

I don't agree that people of distanty ancestry (PODIAs) who are mostly non native are really "Native Americans", and I definently don't agree that people of distant ancestry who are mostly non native and have not been a part of a continuosly existing tribal community  have a right to represent themselves as a Nation in Europe.

2. I'm a bit confused about the link to the pictures of their tribal leaders.
    Are we supposed to view the pictures and determine their ethnicity?

No, not in itself. It's just one clue.

Another major clue is here;

http://web.archive.org/web/20040804181648/theblackwaterband.tripod.com/id18.htm

 

BLACKWATER  BAND  OF   LOWER MVSKOKEES   
    During the removal of 1838, many American Indians had to hide to escape being sent to Oklahoma. Many tried to enter the population as mulatto, French and as black. Of these, many were taken in and helped by some of the white settlers and some were taken in and treated as slaves.

    Many from Alabama and Georgia fled to Florida to hide in the deep woods and swamps. Not all who came to Florida went to the peninsular. Some stayed in the panhandle with friends and relatives that would hide them, and some simply survived in the wilderness.

     As years passed, the white population did not fear the Indians as much and soon ignored them when they would see them. Some were lucky enough to find work and some lucky enough to gain a piece of property and farm. Soon, the whites began to intermarry again with the Indians as many had done before the removal.

     Most of Indian descent tried to hide that fact and would not teach their children the old ways. They had to "BE WHITE" in order, or so they thought, to keep from being sent to Oklahoma. This belief continues on even today with many of Indian descent.

    Many of us have learned of our heritage and we are trying to live as such. We practice the language and participate in many cultural activities. Some of us may have light hair and blue eyes, but we are Indian. We may not be 100% blood, but we all have proven our linage back to American Indians before the removal.

loudcrow

3.  Do you think it's wrong for Native Americans living in Europe
     to enlist the aid of European governments,  leaders, etc.  to pressure
     the US/Canadian governments about Native American issues?

I don't think it's wrong if the issues are truly issues that concern real American Indian people and real tribal Nations. I do think it is wrong if the issues being represented are the interests of people who are only of distant descent and are mostly non native. That would be one more instance of non native people displacing Native people and voices.

4.  What has made you come to the conclusion the Blackwater Band of
     the Lower Muskokee are not Native American?

I haven't come to that conclusion -- though based on what I see,  they look and sound like they are probably the same as many other groups of people with some possible  distant ancestry who have got together and declared themselves a tribe.

I don't know any Native people on this side of the water, who support that sort of behavior.   I'm sure there are always a few who support anything, but for the most part it just seems really presumptuous and disrespectful. More information on these "new " tribes and how they affect the real tribes is here;

http://www.cherokeephoenix.org/News/News.aspx?StoryID=2389

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=846.0

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1111.0

Loud crow

Your comment:
The Blackwater Muskogee have a reserve?

I'm assuming you are Canadian since Americans call them reservations or rez for short.
I didn't realize a tribe needed a reserve (reservation)  in order to be authentic.  I am
assuming you are referring to John "Blackbird" Summer's comment about his reserve.

I was quoting a statement made by what appears to be Larry Nichols, and I also thought it was odd an American would call it a reserve . Maybe I misunderstood who made the comment - but it did sound like it was Larry talking.   

I'm not sure what PODIA means. Could you define PODIA  please?

People of Distant Indian Ancestry
loudcrow

Larry Nichols had 4 lawsuits filed against him in Germany by Henry Reyna
because Larry Nichols had ruined Henry's reputation and wallet by saying he was
not Native American.

(continues...)
I don't know if these people have some Native ancestry , how much ancestry they have or  if the Black Water Muskogee might deserve federal recognition. These isssues are complex and I don't think it is up to a German Court to decide these matters. I would like to know what the federally recognized Muskogee have to say as IMO they are the only rightful authorities on who constitutes a member of the Muskogee Nation. I don't see how whatever anyone does as a Native rights activist should have any bearing on whether they are Native or should be recognized as a tribe. That is a whole different issue . 

Besides the fake Indian names and  membership certificates , the only reason I have concerns about this group is that  when non native people ( or PODIAS ) move into positions of authority they are not entitled to and take over the identities and displace real Native people, it confuses and undermines the recognition of real American Indian Nations. Just because some people look more credible than something that would be found in a circus side show, doesn't mean they are legit, and in fact, it is those who look legit who often do the most damage.

I find your acceptence of people claiming to be Cheifs and tribes and ambassadors to be puzzling when you are so offended by Tonya Billington . I am not saying i think what Tonya Billington is doing is OK, and she is obviously not who she tries to say she is, but as far as I can see, the claims made by the many groups like the Blackwater Muskogee - if they are not extremely well founded- do much more real damage to recognition and respect for tribal soveientythan the Billingtons ever will .

How much credibility should be given to someone who does not identify themselves, does
a drive-by and offers no proof of his own claims? 

I take everything posted here with a grain of salt, but from what I have seen at least 19 out of every 20 groups claiming to be a tribe that is just now coming out of hiding , are at best a bunch of presumptuous PODIAs  . The evidence that mtDNA is providing seems to be showing that almost 9 out of 10 of the people who were told great great grandma was an Indian were told wrong , which probably means , on average, that about 9 out of 10 people claiming to be a PODIA are actually completely non native . More information can be found in the thread below.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1375.0 

Do Natives HAVE to be
state and/or federally recognized in order to be Native?

I feel a lot of sympathy for PODIAs and I think depending on family and community circumstances, it is possible for people to have only a drop of Native blood and for this to be an important part of who they are.

When PODIAs use this drop to support Native rights and the proper authority and leadership of the federally recognized, continuously existing tribes , I think thats great.
When they use this drop to try and reconstruct a culture they know only small parts of, or they use this drop to set themselves up as political entities or to discount and displace the authority of long standing First Nations leaders , I think this is an act of colonization on the part of people who are mostly non native and I think this is wrong.   

Ya know the saying = it's not how big it is but what is done with it that counts ...

Crazy eagle   

I am genuinely curious Moma Porcupine as to your interest in the Blackwater Band, as to date I have not seen or heard of any fraudulent activities there in the US or Germany.

IMO claiming to be a Chief or ambassador of a Muskogee band that isn't recognized as such by the federally recognized Muskogee would be a fraudulent activitiy - though I am still not sure where the federally recognized Muskogee stand on this group. I also think non recognized groups claiming to be tribes giving out honourary memberships and Indian names in Europe comes pretty close to a being a fraudulent activity , but that is just my opinion.   

But you do seem to have an avid interest going on with them..is it idle curiousity or do you have information which pertains to this particular Nation and its people as I fail to see where this thread is going?

Well actually I see Zoi Lightfoot posting here , and she says she represents the IIC to the UN and this questionable Blackwater Muskogee band is a memebr of the IIC . As I believe these groups of PODIAs confuse and undermine recognition of real Native people and Nations , I am thinking this is something folks might want to consider...

Which is why I started the thread...

If you all live overseas maybe this is stuff you just haven't run across to the same degree people over here have ...

From some of the other thread I posted links to above you can see this is a general concern I have posted on many times before.

Sorry this is so long ...

[zoi lightfoot]

Up until seven years ago when I began checking the paperwork of these so called 'Ambassadors' I would have agreed with educatedindians comments 100%.But sadly our Nations and their leadership do not require the permission nor do they require to notify anyone if they take the Sovereign position they name and nominate their own Ambassadors.
For every ten fakes there is a genuine Ambassador(mostly active are the Lakota Nation) with official tribal authorization in place to be recognized as such.Rosebud for instance has Melvin Custer Jordan in the Netherlands like him or loath him (he's a bit of a twinkie magnet) he's Rosebuds choice and unless you are from Rosebud,we cannot question that until the guy stuffs up.He's far from unique.
Moma,now to you,where in this post did it say(or any other) that I personaly represent the Blackwater Band?I represent ex pats and like it or not some members of that Clan are ex pat Indians.Second I've been a recognized attorney for over thirty five years and yes i am part of the vast intertribal legal team based at the UN. Tell me moma how come you get to ask confrontational questions about everyone else yet no one apparently is permitted to know anything about you?what Nation/Band are you from for instance.

[zoi lightfoot]

Ps I am not British Moma I am just based here and spend as much time AT HOME as i do in europe,when the nations no longer have need of me then i go home that simple.I presume if folks spend time out here such as the indigenous working committee at the UN or IITC for instance then we are no longer 'in touch' and therefore unqualified to comment on anything? Interesting but naive in the extreeme

[Moma_porcupine]

Moma,now to you,where in this post did it say(or any other) that I personaly represent the Blackwater Band?

I think part of where I got that impression is here;
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1390.0

 

Statement from Zoi Lightfoot - Director of Legal Affairs Treaty House UK 

from the first post
Zoi Lightfoot

Our Peoples overseas are not just a “few??? Indians scattered across Europe, the IIC represents approximately one eighth of our combined sovereign nations populous residing overseas

Larry D. Nichols IIC member based in Germany.

Reply #2 on: November 02, 2007, 11:45:31 am »   
crazyeagle

OK..IIC stands for International Intertribal Community...this is merely another way of saying ex-pat natives

I think it has been mentioned befor that you represent the IIC and as the Blackwater band is part of the IIC that you represent them and people like them seems a logical conclusion.  You yourself just said you represent people like and including the Blackwater Muskokee .

Zoi Lightfoot

I represent ex pats and like it or not some members of that Clan are ex pat Indians
 

Second I've been a recognized attorney for over thirty five years and yes i am part of the vast intertribal legal team based at the UN.

Is there any way people could verify that? Is there a website that lists you as a part of a law firm or private practice? When I do a search on your name , nothing comes up except your posts in NAFPS and your involvment in bringing awareness to the plight of Leonard Peltier.

Tell me moma how come you get to ask confrontational questions about everyone else yet no one apparently is permitted to know anything about you?what Nation/Band are you from for instance.

I don't make any claims about myself so there is nothing that needs to be verified . I am careful to provide links so people can see if what I say about the issues is true , and people can find whatever might be of value in my own opinions, without knowing details of who I am or how I got my particular point of view. Lots of people here are anonymous and ask questions. Why do you only protest to that when it is people you support who are being asked the questions? If people have nothing to hide I doubt these questions about claims people make, would feel confrontational. I have been giving you the benifit of the doubt thinking maybe because you live overseas you just aren't aware of some of the issues with these so called tribes of PODIAs.

Is there a particular person on the federally recognized Muskogee tribal council people could contact to verify if they recognize the Blackwater band? Is there someone on the tribal council that could confirm that  the federally recognized Muskogee support Larry Nichols to acting as an ambassador in Europe?

[zoi lightfoot]

I repeat just for the hard of hearing.
The Blackwater Band/clan has its own voice and I challange you to state EXACTLY where I said I represent the Blackwater Band.Once again WHO ARE YOU moma?

[Moma_porcupine]

I repeat just for the hard of hearing.
The Blackwater Band/clan has its own voice and I challange you to state EXACTLY where I said I represent the Blackwater Band.Once again WHO ARE YOU moma?

LOL Zoi, EXACTLY where did I say you represent the Blackwater Band -without fully explaining how I arrived at this conclusion?

Does your response mean you can't name anyone in the federally recognized Muskogee tribal council who would vouche for these people ? If so, don't expect me to be supportive of a group that may be colonizing their identity . This is getting silly. I gotta go to work. Have a good day.

[educatedindian]

Up until seven years ago when I began checking the paperwork of these so called 'Ambassadors' I would have agreed with educatedindians comments 100%.But sadly our Nations and their leadership do not require the permission nor do they require to notify anyone if they take the Sovereign position they name and nominate their own Ambassadors.
For every ten fakes there is a genuine Ambassador(mostly active are the Lakota Nation) with official tribal authorization in place to be recognized as such.Rosebud for instance has Melvin Custer Jordan in the Netherlands like him or loath him (he's a bit of a twinkie magnet) he's Rosebuds choice and unless you are from Rosebud,we cannot question that until the guy stuffs up.He's far from unique.

I'm not too clear about what you're saying in your answer. At first you claim they don't require anyone's permission, but then you say they actually have it.

I did check your claim that the Lakota have many ambassadors over in Europe. It's sometimes not clear.
http://www.thejordantradingpost.com/lakotaphylosophy.htm

He's a dancer that describes himself as the Ambassador to Denmark in one section, but doesn't mention it at all in his bio. Again, no sign of him actually working for the tribal govt, just doing his dances for Europeans.

The Rosebud tribal govt site has no mention of ambassadors.
http://www.rosebudsiouxtribe-nsn.gov/govt.htm

I suppose it's quite possible that there is a council of traditionalists who asked him to think of himself as an ambassador.

Joseph Chasing Horse also often gets listed as Lakota ambassador to the UN. Ironically I haven't found that listed at either UN sites or Lakota ones, but only at NASA websites when he did some science consulting work for them. It seems what he actually did was be part of a delegation of over 180 Native reps for a presentation to the UN on global warming.

Activists, yes. Doing important work, yes. Actual ambassadors the way most national govts understand them to be, fulltime working at embassies on official relations between nation-states, etc, no.

At least one claiming to be Lakota ambassador looks suspicious. Nikos White Feather is largely an artist. Besides claiming to be ex Lakota ambassador, on another site he only claims to be "flying Greek/Cherokee" and a "student of shamanism".
 http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=23282539

[zoi lightfoot]

What i am actualy saying is Rosebud has its own authorised 'Ambassador' as such Rosebud doesn't need or require our 'permission' no more no less nor do I disagree with the rest of what you say.However you yourself have stated Larry Nicholes HAS NOT claimed to be an Ambassador,nor have we ever heard him mention this position in europe.However in response to Moma Porcupines assumptions Larry Nicholes who is at work at the moment,called to state I will have the paperwork from the Fed recognized tribe AND his e mailed to me by the end of the day at which point it will be posted on NAPFS.
Sorry Al but I still want to know who Moma is

[educatedindian]

However you yourself have stated Larry Nicholes HAS NOT claimed to be an Ambassador,nor have we ever heard him mention this position in europe.However in response to Moma Porcupines assumptions Larry Nicholes who is at work at the moment,called to state I will have the paperwork from the Fed recognized tribe AND his e mailed to me by the end of the day at which point it will be posted on NAPFS.
Sorry Al but I still want to know who Moma is

Actualluy I said the exact opposite, that Nicholes does seem to be claiming to be an official ambassador for the tribal govt.

Glad to see the paperwork will be posted, thanks.