Blackwater Muskogee tribe

[loudcrow]

Here is the second letter. Again, the original has been altered.
I had to reduce the size in order to post it here.

[zoi lightfoot]

Now let me spell this out for everyone exactly as I intend it to be heard,this is not a discussion.Larry Nicholes has never given me cause or concern that would warrent my questioning his ethnicity or right at any time to represent the Blackwater Clan. Yet he is a member of the International Intertribal Community as is another member of that specific Clan.The IIC is not "a club/group/etc,it is a recognized ethnic minority presence in the International community.
If anyone has a problem with the Blackwater Clan,then they not the IIC are the ones you should be talking directly to,the details are on the paperwork.
Until such time as someone proves their assumptions,as to why members of the Blackwater Clan residing overseas,should not be accepted and recognized as members of the International community,then my message is simple.Do not interfere in matters that do not concern NAPFS,I am the current director for legal affairs on behalf of the IIC,that is a QUALIFIED position and one the ex patriots themselves have determined me to to be and not one whereby they or myself sought 'permissions' from any NAPFS member outside that International community.
I will remind all of you the Nations and peoples I have personaly represented over the last thirty five years DEMAND I answer to them and account directly to them on matters relating to them.Word to the wise peoples don't gossip,make assumptions or determine everyones guilt by alledged associations,above all make sure someone actualy said or claimed something publicaly before you go castigating them in public,or presuming to 'judge' ANY member of the Indian Nations.Its not clever and it undermines everything NAPFS first set out to do in that presuming the guilt of any Indian until you have evidences to the contrary will alienate you with the wider Indian community.

[educatedindian]

Actually it IS a discussion, Zoi. You can't come in here and essentially make a demand that no one talk about a subject. You don't help things when you try to bark orders at people.

I have no idea why you then demand no one question an organization that has not even BEEN questioned by anyone.

For the docs posted, I realize it took awhile to figure out how to post them. But I'd strongly suggest making a copy of them, then blackening Nichol's DOB out and reposting it. Having his DOB posted online could easily be used for ID theft.

Again, thanks for going to the trouble with the docs, but they still don't answer some of the original questions. I still don't see any sign that the Blackwater are recognized as a tribe by other Muscogee, only that Nichols has descent.

I'm also not sure what to make of "chief in training for honorary members."

[zoi lightfoot]

Al with respect i mean you nor Napfs any personal offence,but I suggest you read the thread after the NNN statement I made.I didn't post Larry Nicholes paperwork,yet as he joined Napfs yesterday I am sure he can answer any quiries directly.If people have a problem with Black water i suggest they contact them and accertain from them who does or does not recognise them and verify that from there.
What you have is three threads not oneMomas consistant demands for personal answers from Napfs members yet with no recourse apparently for these people to be treated with respects akin to those given out.two;dismissal of the Billingtons as unimportant,two individuals who blatently lie,assault members of the Indian Nations and host the very fakes considered the most dangerous on your own site. and three;the Black water band itself,which Ive already answered.
If I am not permitted to make a demand on this site,and that i can respect,then that applies to everyone across the board of Napfs mmembership AL,no fear or favour yes?

[loudcrow]

For the record, my real name is Elizabeth Roemer. Members of the
Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee are my family. I am doing
my very best to be objective and put my personal feelings aside
regarding this sitation but there are some things which need to
be discussed and clarified.

There is no problem that questions have been asked. The problem is
the way in which the questions have been asked and some of the
comments made by Mama when answers have been given to her.

1. The first item is this post is a list of tribal leaders and their
     natural names. What  gave the impression they are PODIAs
     and/or not Native? Their first names? Their last names? Their
     natural names?

2.  The second item is a link to a photo of tribal leaders. In an earlier
     post, I asked Mama if we were supposed
     to look at these photos and determine the ethnicity of these
     people. Her response was: "No, not in itself. It's just one clue."

3.  Another "clue" we are PODIAs, frauds, phonies, etc. is
     the very brief history about my people. Fair enough. Where is
     the proof this information is a lie, misleading, etc.

4. I asked if Mama had come to the conclusion Native Americans
     residing in Europe cannot possibly be considered Ambassadors
     for their people. This was her answer:  "I don't agree that people of
     distanty ancestry (PODIAs) who are mostly non native are really
    "Native Americans", and I definently don't agree that people of distant
    ancestry who are mostly non native and have not been a part of a
    continuosly existing tribal community  have a right to represent
    themselves as a Nation in Europe." To me, this answer sounds
    again, like she is calling me and my family PODIAs, has assumed
    none of the family grew up together in a Native  community
    and is insinuating we are no longer in contact with our family and/or
    nation because we reside in Europe..

I was the one who posted the 2 letters on this site. It wasn't Zoi.
Those letters were not altered in any way other than having had
their size reduced.  Those letters will not be altered in any way
because I do not want to next be accused of falsifying documents.

Now you know who I am and who my people are. Take a look at
the letter from Poarch Band .... a federally recognized tribe.  Does it
or does it not say Larry is sixth generation Creek? If he is Creek
according to that letter and the Blackwater Band of the Lower
Muskokee are his family does that or does that not also make
them Creek?

I am not going to nitpick with anyone right now with how Muskokee
is properly spelled, whether or not we are official Ambassadors and
whether or not we have business offices, a staff, etc. or anything
else not directly related to the issue at hand. Are my people/family
Native or not? Are we PODIAs or not? Are we a bunch of frauds
or not?

Since Mama has refused to tell us which nation she is from, no
further information about my family will be given out.

Let the Nations judge for themselves.

Liz Roemer

[educatedindian]

If people have a problem with Black water i suggest they contact them and accertain from them who does or does not recognise them and verify that from there.

What you have is three threads not one Momas consistant demands for personal answers from Napfs members yet with no recourse apparently for these people to be treated with respects akin to those given out.

two;dismissal of the Billingtons as unimportant,two individuals who blatently lie,assault members of the Indian Nations and host the very fakes considered the most dangerous on your own site.

and three; the Black water band itself,which Ive already answered.

I separated your points to make them clearer, but didn't alter them.

The paperwork posted was supposed to show that Blackwater was recognized as a Muscogee tribe by the federally recognized Muscogee. So far we haven't seen that, just excuses.

Moma P simply asked the same thing I am asking now, for clear answers. And for that, there have been a lot of attempts to distract people from those original questions. As was pointed out in another thread, the rancor and anger of those being questioned doesn't help them at all, just the opposite.

The Billingtons were absolutely NOT dismissed as unimportant. If you think so I suggest you go back to the thread on them, with all the research done on them and the subsequent long series of attacks they made. And of course you know that last part, because it was people you knew who were among those being attacked.

And three: No, that hasn't been answered, as I said at the start of this post. Does Blackwater have recognition as a fellow Muscogee tribe by already recognized Muscogee tribes? A paper saying Nichols has ancestry doesn't address that.

[loudcrow]

Al, I don't know what gave you the impression the papers would should
the Blackwater Band is recognized by a federally recognized tribe. Zoi
Lightfoot has already asked you contact them and ask that question
yourself.  I am asking you to do the same. Contact them yourselves.

6173 N. Stewart Street
Milton, Florida 32570
(850) 626-3380

Zoi Lightfoot is NOT the legal representative of the Blackwater Band of
the Lower Muskokee and has never claimed to be. Two of its members (former as far as enrollment cards go) are members of the IIC: me (Liz
Roemer) and my cousin, Larry Nichols.  Zoi Lightfoot has no authority to
speak on behalf of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee. She
does have the authority to speak on behalf of myself and Larry Nichols.
Any questions you have concerning the Blackwater Band of the Lower
Muskokee should be addressed to them.

If you don't wish to contact the Blackwater Band and ask them
questions,  here is the address and telephone number of the Poarch Band of Creek Indians. Call and ask them if they do or do not recognize Blackwater Band and/or its members.

Poarch Band of Creek Indians
5811 Jack Springs Road
Atmore, AL 36502
334-368-9136 FAX 368-4502

To the best of my knowledge, the Poarch Band of Creek Indians
will only allow residents of the state of Alabama to be eligible for
enrollment at this time.

Liz Roemer

[educatedindian]

Oh brother...

That's still doing everything possible to avoid answering the questions.

It's very simple Liz. Do you or Nichols have any proof that Blackwater are recognized or not? Don't push this question off by insisting I call up anyone. You should already know.

My guess is that you don't and will do anything to avoid answering the question.

Unless you prove otherwise, I'd say we should consider Blackwater a heritage group.

I'm also still waiting to hear something as bizarre as "chief in training of honorary members" over in Germany explained.

[LittleOldMan]

This is what the Poarch Bands Constitution has to say.     ARTICLE I - MEMBERSHIP

Section 1. Eligibility

Membership of the Poarch Band of Creek Indians shall consist of:

(A) All persons enumerated as Indian on the following official documents:

(1) 1870 U.S. Census of Escambia County, Alabama

(2) 1900 U.S. Census of Escambia County, Alabama and

(3) 1900 U.S. Special Indian Census of Monroe County, Alabama.

NOTE: For the purpose of computing blood quantum of their decedents, for tribal membership, all Indians eligible under Section 1(A) are hereby declared as fullblood (4/4) Creek Indians and shall constitute the base roll of the Poarch Band of Creek Indians.

(B) All living descendants of those eligible under Section 1(A) of at least one fourth (1/4) degree Indian blood, provided they are not enrolled as members of any other tribe, group or band of Indians.

(C) All children of at least one-fourth (1/4) degree of Indian blood born to an enrolled member of the Poarch Band of Creek Indians.

Section 2. Powers of to Determine Membership

he sole authority to determine membership of the Poarch Band of Creek Indians. No decree of any Court purporting to determine membership in the Poarch Hand of Creek Indians, paternity, or degree of Creek Indian or other blood shall be recognized as determination of membership in the Poarch Band of Creek Indians.

Section 3. Membership Ordinance

The Tribal Council shall enact an ordinance establishing procedures for processing membership matters including application procedures and blood degree corrections of the roll as provided in Article I, Section I of this Constitution, within six months of the First Tribal Council's Election to office under this Constitution. That ordinance shall contain procedures, including the right of appeal.

Section 4. Adoption and Loss of Membership

The Tribal Council shall have the power to prescribe rules and regulations governing the adoption of members and loss of membership
"LittleOldMan"

[dabosijigwokush]

i dont know how to put this but heres what i find
the address of the blackwater muskokee tribe


Ron's Place Pawn & Gun
6173 Stewart St
Milton, FL 32570 Map

(850) 626-3380  Review This Business!

ron's place has many stores in many states , check the yellow pages
photos of the address show a sign and a parking lot with a store

wheres the nation's band office
for that matter wheres the nation

[loudcrow]

I will answer some of the questions that have been asked
because I want this matter ENDED and SOON. I also have
some comments I am going to make.

1. The  German newspaper/magazine/whatever article
    states "said Nichols, Europe ambassadors of his tribe". At
    that time, Larry Nichols was, indeed, the Ambassador
    for the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee. He was also
    our Tvstvn'ke (War Chief). However,  since  Larry and/or myself
    are no longer enrolled members,  that document is null and void.
     
2. Larry Nichols HAS NEVER given Indian names to Europeans
    to the very best of the knowledge.  Someone else gave him the
    man in question his  name and Larry simply commented on the name.
    Ya can't believe everything you  hear on tv, radio, etc. and you can't
    believe everything you read  in a magazine, newspaper or
    the Internet.

3.  If the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee or any other
      clan/tribe/nation decided to give someone an honorary
     membership, that is their business.  None of our business!

4.  Are we or are we not clear about whether or not Larry Nichols
     is sixth generation Creek Indian? According to the document from
    Poarch Band, he is.

5.  Indeed, the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee gave honorary
     membership cards to Tanja and Francis Billington based upon her
     assertions of being Cherokee. We were foolish enough to believe
     her and were foolish enough to wait 3 years or more for her to
     produce documents (birth certificate, passport, genealogy, etc)
     which would  validate her claims. We're still waiting. Zoi Lightfoot
     is still waiting (according to her last post about them) for them to
     contact her and arrange for some type of meeting. To be honest,
     I think we'll still be waiting 10 years from now. Meanwhile, T/T/T
     is  telling people both in Germany and the UK she  is Cherokee, has
     proven it, has an enrollment card  and I have personally seen Francis
     Billington carry the Cherokee flag in the "grand entry" at "PowWow"s
     here in the UK.  Since I am of both Creek and Cherokee blood, how
     do you think that makes me feel??

6.  Like it or not, whether or not someone is American or not, is Native
     American or not DID become the business of the German court during
     the course of the trial. Since Henry Reyna's lawsuit revolved entirely
     around statements made about his NOT being American and NOT
     being Native American he had to prove WE are not American and
     are not Native American. He was also required to prove he was and
     that our statements were lies.  Because of this lawsuit, the German
     courts had to become familar with what constitutes a Native American
      nation, sovereign rights, CDIB cards,  enrollment cards, etc.  In case
     I neglected to mention it earlier, Henry Reyna was not successful
      in proving he was either American or Native American.

7.  In case anyone hasn't seen the big picture yet, since I have now
      made public loudcrow/Crow with a loud mouth/Crow with a bent
      beak/Crow with a big mouth or whatever other phoneyor not
      phoney Indian name anyone would like to call me  is ME: Elizabeth
      Roemer and  to me and my family T/T/T told these blatant lies. Now if
     anyone  on this forum would be kind enough to contact the Cherokee
     Nation  in Oklahoma and ask whether she is/is not enrolled and obtain a
      written statement from them regarding her status, please PM me.
      It is extremely difficult for those of us who reside in Europe (time
      differences, cost of International phone calls, etc) to do everything we
      need to do. I will be extremely appreciative if anyone can assist us
      not only in this matter but in others as well.
   
8.   T/T/T and Francis were NEVER taught how to lead or do a proper
      Stomp Dance by my family. In fact, we do not teach sacred things
      to ANYONE NOT OF OUR CLAN, Imagine how horrified we were
      to see they had taken it upon themselves to conduct one (complete
      with drums) at their Pagan gathering.

We have enough work here in the UK to keep us busy for the next
several centuries.  You would be amazed at the number of "Cherokee",
"Lakota", "Shoshone",  "Medicine Men", etc. that are prancing around
in the UK and are the bells of the ball at the UK "PowWows".  Some of
them even carry the flags of "their Nation" into the "Grand Entry".  So
please don't preach to us about PODIAs, Wannabes, liars, cheats,
frauds,. etc. We have to deal with them, and sometimes face-to-face,
on a daily basis.  And this isn't happening just in the UK. It is
happening in Poland, Belgium, France, Holland, Germany, Russia and
other places.  It would be nice if those of you who live in the states
and/or Canada would offer some assistance.

I've seen the post from dabosijigwokush regarding Ron's Place Pawn
and Gun. That is the work address of Chief Robert Earl Watson I
believe and since he is there during normal business hours and not
at home to receive phone calls, I ASSUME that is why this address and
telephone number is being used. Call him and ask the burning questions.

Liz Roemer

[dabosijigwokush]

no that is what is listed on the paper that was posted from the tribe
so the tribes mail is delivered to a gun shop?
listed owners of rons place pawn and gun shop

RONS PLACE
KULKA, RONALD FRANCIS & CHERYL A
6173 N STEWART ST

MILTON, FL  32570

do they know that there place is being used this way?
by Robert Earl Watson

[loudcrow]

Oh brother is right!

 I think I've made it perfectly clear Larry and I are no
longer enrolled members of that band. However, this band is still my
family. Do either of us have proof of their being state and/or federally
recognized or recognized by federally recognized Creek/Muskokee?
No. Since we are no longer enrolled members, how could we possibly
be expected to produce, upon demand, documents?

Do I know if  other Creek/Muskokee recognize them or not? Yes.

Will I answer that question here? No.

Why not?

"My guess is that you don't and will do anything to avoid answering the question."

[Insults removed]

 Call the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee, Poarch,  or whoever you wanna call. I HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THE BLACKWATER BAND OF THE LOWER MUSKOKEE. You can call this dodging
the issue, evading answering, I really don't care what you wanna call it.
Try, for example; calling a non-enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation
and asking them to either obtain or hand over to NAFPS documents
concerning the Cherokee Nation. Only a fool would oblige you.

Dunno if Chief Watson's employer knows he uses the company business
phone to conduct Native business or not. That's not my business. Nor
is it yours.

My intent in my previous post was to answer only those questions which
I can from first-hand experience and/or knowledge answer. I refuse to answer any questions I am not authorized to answer. Plain and simple.

I AM NOT AUTHORIZED TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF THE BLACKWATER BAND
OF THE LOWER MUSKOKEE.

 If you were to ask a former employee of a company to turn over confidential files of that company and to issue a statement
about the company's current policy on whatever, how much credibility
would you or anyone else be willing to give to those files (which have
probably been changed) or that policy (which may have also been
changed)? 

Please answer these questions for me.

Are my people/family Native or not
Are we PODIAs or not?
 Are we a bunch of frauds or not?

Liz Roemer

[loudcrow]

Posted by educatedindian:
I'm also still waiting to hear something as bizarre as "chief in training of honorary members" over in Germany explained.

Since I was not an enrolled member of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee at the time this letter was written, I am in no position to address this because I have no first hand knowledge.  And even if I did have
first-hand knowledge I would not answer because I am not authorized to
speak on behalf of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee.

Unless my eyes are deceiving me, the letter reads "He will act as our
Chief-In-Training and lead and direct any of our Honorary Members
in Germany".

Who are we to decide which titles a clan/band/nation can or cannot give?

Posted by educatedindian:
Unless you prove otherwise, I'd say we should consider Blackwater a heritage group.

I don't have to prove anything about the Blackwater Band of the Lower
Muskokee to you or anyone else since I do not have the authority to
speak on their behalf. Yes, these people are my clan and my family.
Do I have permission to speak and answer questions on behalf of
the Blackwater Band?  Absolutely not and that is precisely why I will not
answer some of the questions.  If you want to consider them a heritage
group, feel free to do so.

Let's be honest here. The only reason the Blackwater Band came to the
attention of the NAFPS is because of T/T/T and Francis Billington and the
involvement Larry, myself and other members of my family  had with them
personally. Fair enough. I can honestly say I understand that and
understand why my family has come under scrutiny.  We were played
for fools. T/T/T looked me, Larry and other members of my family straight
in the eyes and lied to us.  Despite our own misgivings, we patiently
waited for T/T/T to produce her documents. We waited for 3+ years.
We still haven't seen them.  We're heard more excuses than Carter
has pills as to why she has been unable to show them.  Are they
still honorary members of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee?
Not unless someone has restored them since Larry and I became
unenrolled members. I cannot answer that question either because I
simply do not know the answer.

I'm looking at Francis' website now (wolfcrystalspirit.com). Under the
photographs section, under Home USA 2007/2008 are pictures they
would have viewers believe were taken during their visit during
the Christmas holidays. For the record, the picture entitled "The tribal
people of the lower Muskokee Creek" is indeed my family in their
regalia. Was this picture taken during their visit? No. Does its appearance
on his website under that title give anyone else the impression the entire
clan showed up in regalia and threw a big "Welcome"" party for them?
The picture entitled "Brenda and Turkey Tolbert" also was not taken during
 their visit.

Are their others like her in the world? You better believe it! Are they most
anxious to have a "real Native American friend"? You better believe it!
People like this will stop AT NOTHING.  Is it possible one of you might
befriend such a charming, friendly, charismatic, deceitful person as T/T/T
is? Yes. Was I deeply hurt by her actions? Yes. Did I learn a lesson from
it? Yes.

It simply is not fair to look at photos of people and put yourself in a
position of authority and judge whether or not these people are
Native American or any other ethniticity. I personally know some
Natives with blond hair and blue eyes. They are Natives nevertheless.

It isn't fair to look at whatever someone else has written and published
and hold the individual about whom the article was written responsible
for its contents and/or  inaccuracies.

It simply isn't fair to throw around words like "not Native", PODIA,
"has no right to represent and undermine real Native Americans" and
personal opinions such as those expressed by Mama when a topic is
under RESEARCH NEEDED.  When you find PROOF the people being
researched are frauds, not Native, etc. then I suggest you turn the
information over to the tribe to which they claim they belong and let
them deal with it and not declare anyone to be judge and jury over
something which does not affect the sovereign rights of a nation.

I also urge those who are non-Native to become more aware of the
protocol and decorum demanded by my people. Questions must be
posed in a proper way and respectfully. Do not presume you can
ask anything you want and receive an answer. We don't work
that way. We are not easily intimidated, so threatening or badgering
us won't get you anywhere either. In fact, it will get you nowhere at
all.

I haven't quite figured out how the IIC, the UN, Leonard, Zoi Lightfoot's
qualifications as a lawyer, etc. got into this thread. These topics have
absolutely nothing to do with this thread other than yes. Larry and I
are members of the IIC (International Intertribal Community) and yes.
Zoi Lightfoot is the personal legal representative of both Larry and
myself. I would appreciate it if these became seperate threads entirely
since they have absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Liz Roemer

[bls926]

I have a question, Liz. Why aren't you and Larry Nichols enrolled members of the "Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee" any longer? And, if Nichols isn't a member, how can he be their Ambassador to Germany?