Blackwater Muskogee tribe

[loudcrow]

Why Larry and I are no longer members is personal and will not
be answered. Since I have already stated since Larry is no longer
an enrolled member, the letter giving him authority to act as
European representative is null and void. Do Larry and I consider
ourselves Ambassadors? Yes. Is it an offical position? No. Do we
have an office? Yes. Larry's is in his basement and mine is in a
spare bedroom. Do we get paid? Not one red cent. Do we think
what we do for the nations to be important and productive? Yes.

Please keep in mind the majority of the exerpts from the articles
Mama posted as evidence are old. I cannot state the source and/or
dates of these publications and neither did  Mama when she posted
them here as evidence. I simply cannot remember.  In my opinion,
source, date, URL, etc. should be stated whenever such information
is used as evidence.

I'm off to sleep now since it's almost 5am  and I am tired and my
brain is fried.

Liz

[Cetan]

Maybe I am missing something here but it seems that no one is willing to verify that the Blackwater Muskogee tribe is either federally or state recognized, so we can assume they are not. Larry Nichols has a document saying he has Creek ancestors but even that tribe does not seem to recognize him as an enrolled member. And he is not even a member of the "tribe" that he is supposed to be the ambassador of.  Does that sum it up?

[loudcrow]

From Cetan:

"Maybe I am missing something here but it seems that no one is willing to verify that the Blackwater Muskogee tribe is either federally or state recognized, so we can assume they are not."

Maybe I am the one who seems to be missing something and/or
maybe I am the one who has not communicated the answers clearly.
Since the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee does not appear on
the list of state and/or federally recognized tribes, I think it's safe to
ASSUME they are not. To the best of my knowledge, no one here has
the authority to answer that question. Only the state of Florida and/or the
BIA has the authority to answer those questions.

From Cretan:

"Larry Nichols has a document saying he has Creek ancestors but even that tribe does not seem to recognize him as an enrolled member."

Did you contact  the Poarch Band and ask  if he is an enrolled member or
not? Or did you ASSUME none of us are enrolled in the Poarch Band?

There is a difference between being recognized by a state and/or
federally recognized tribe as a Native American and being an enrolled
member of a state and/or federally recognized tribe. Since whether or
not we are PODAs, frauds, etc. has been brought into
question, this letter was published in an attempt  to prove we are Native
Americans. The letter from Poarch Band certifies Larry Nichols as a
"Recognized and Accepted Creek Indian Decendant" from the Rolls of a
Federally Acknowledged Creek Tribe. THIS EVIDENCE SHOULD SETTLE THE
MATTER OF WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE PERSONALLY RECOGNIZED BY A
FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBE. Having received such a letter from
a federally recognized tribe,  gives one the right  to freely participate in
their culture. There is nothing you can do or say that can or will change
that. There are many Creek/Muskokee in Oklahoma who are not at present
enrolled members. They are still accepted as being part of the Native
American community. They are still accepted by their  tribe and are
allowed to participate in their culture. There is nothing you can
do or say that will change that

From Cretan:

"And he is not even a member of the "tribe" that he is supposed to be the ambassador of.  Does that sum it up?"

The newspaper, magazine articles, etc.  which Mama uses as
"evidence" against us are YEARS old to the best of my recollection.
At the time these articles were written, both Larry and I were enrolled
members of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee and he,
indeed, did have the authority to serve as their Representative. We are
no longer enrolled members of the Blackwater Band of the Lower
Muskokee and DO NOT represent or introduce ourselves as being their
Ambassadors.  Is that clear to everyone or not?

FYI, the Comanche has an official Ambassador to Germany. He's not
Native. His name does not appear on their official webiste. Contact the
Comanche anonymously after having taken  it upon yourselves to decide
what the Comanche can or cannot do and ask why they made this decision,
why they decided upon a specific "Title" for this non-Native man and why
they made  this man their Ambassador. See how far you get and please let
us know how that worked out for ya.

I have some questions of my own now:

1. What qualifications does the site and/or its members have which
    gives them the authority to attack members of Indian Nations
    or individuals who have proven they are Native American?

2.  What business does this site and/or its members have
     interfering in the internal processes of Band and/or Tribal
     Council matters without Sanction or Recourse?

3.  By what right does this site and/or its members cast doubt on
     innocent peoples without first identifying yourselves and producing
     documents granting you the authority to do so?

Liz Roemer

 

[educatedindian]

1...even if I did have first-hand knowledge I would not answer because I am not authorized to speak on behalf of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee.

2...Who are we to decide which titles a clan/band/nation can or cannot give?

3...I don't have to prove anything about the Blackwater Band of the Lower
Muskokee to you or anyone else since I do not have the authority to
speak on their behalf.

4...Let's be honest here. The only reason the Blackwater Band came to the
attention of the NAFPS is because of T/T/T and Francis Billington and the
involvement Larry, myself and other members of my family  had with them
personally.

5...It simply isn't fair to throw around words like "not Native", PODIA,
"has no right to represent and undermine real Native Americans" and
personal opinions...

6...I haven't quite figured out how the IIC, the UN, Leonard, Zoi Lightfoot's
qualifications as a lawyer, etc. got into this thread.

Liz Roemer

I'll try to answer clearly each point. I added numbers to try and make things clearer.

1. Liz, that first one is nonsense. Any member of any recognized tribe would be able to answer such questions clearly and quickly, and no one would presume that only an "authorized representative" could, or that someone was presenting themselves as such.
The Blackwaters certainly do try to use the whole bit about "authorized" and "recognized" in the exact oppsite way most tribes with recog do.

2. No one's trying to "decide" what titles can be given out. Try arguing with what's actually said instead of what you decide to make up. It's hardly our fault if the Blackwater decided to give Nichols a title that few, if any, tribes with recog have ever had, but that some fake tribes have used.

3. I have no idea why you not being "authorized" means you believe you don't have to prove anything.

4. Actually the Billingtons were only part of the reason why they came to our attention. The main reason why they continue to occupy our time is because of the refusal to give simple, clear answers and give lots of excuses instead.
Really, how hard would it have been to say, "We are composed of people who've discovered they had Muscogee ancestry, and are trying to form a heritage group that we hope will become a community, but we often make mistakes."

5. Those terms have been tossed around primarily by Blackwater and friends. Don't complain when people see through your attempts to distract from the issue and naturally wonder if the terms are more applicable to you.
We have members who are PODIA, and don't find it insulting, don't take on airs, get easily insulted over ordinary and understandable questions, or imaginary slights. To be a descendant is no cause for shame, nor is being primarily white.

6. With the exception of the last point, I haven't figured out how either. Oh yes, I remember. Blackwaters introduced these questions, in the hopes of causing a distraction or pretending that somehow Peltier, the IIC, etc, were under debate or even somehow being insulted.

[educatedindian]

1. There is a difference between being recognized by a state and/or
federally recognized tribe as a Native American and being an enrolled
member of a state and/or federally recognized tribe. Since whether or
not we are PODAs, frauds, etc. has been brought into
question, this letter was published in an attempt  to prove we are Native
Americans. The letter from Poarch Band certifies Larry Nichols as a
"Recognized and Accepted Creek Indian Decendant" from the Rolls of a
Federally Acknowledged Creek Tribe. THIS EVIDENCE SHOULD SETTLE THE
MATTER OF WHETHER OR NOT WE ARE PERSONALLY RECOGNIZED BY A
FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBE. Having received such a letter from
a federally recognized tribe,  gives one the right  to freely participate in
their culture. There is nothing you can do or say that can or will change
that. There are many Creek/Muskokee in Oklahoma who are not at present
enrolled members. They are still accepted as being part of the Native
American community. They are still accepted by their  tribe and are
allowed to participate in their culture. There is nothing you can
do or say that will change that


2. FYI, the Comanche has an official Ambassador to Germany. He's not
Native. His name does not appear on their official webiste. Contact the
Comanche anonymously after having taken  it upon yourselves to decide
what the Comanche can or cannot do and ask why they made this decision,
why they decided upon a specific "Title" for this non-Native man and why
they made  this man their Ambassador. See how far you get and please let
us know how that worked out for ya.

Liz Roemer

I added the numbers again, to make things clearer.

1. The only thing that doc does is prove Nichols had an ancestor six generations back. Plenty of enrolled people don't take part in the culture or community, and plenty of people who are not enrolled are accepted by their communities.

Really, it's something fairly simple to show. I went to school at Purdue, and the Miami of Indiana were not far away. They were always having meetings and other contacts with the Miami in OK, working on common issues, language programs, etc. And the Miami of OK repeatedly issued public statements supporting the Miami of Indiana's efforts for federal recognition.

2. Really....? I would like to know his name. Show me where the office of this "Comanche ambassador" is. Doesn't show up anywhere listed at the Comanche Nation's offices.
http://www.comanchenation.com/departments.html

Doesn't show up anywhere I could find actually.

I bring that last one up because an alleged Comanche, David Yeagley, appeared in a racist film recently, made in Europe, that urged all NDNs worldwide to assimilate and said that NDN cultures were either dead or failing. Wouldn't a Comanche ambassador comment on something like this, given the damage being done to their people so close to where he's stationed?

[educatedindian]

Your spamming was deleted Liz. You already asked the questions. No one answered you because they don't see the point in wasting time just because you can't be bothered to read the "Who We Are" intro to the site.

It's also another attempts to sidetrack the questions you still refuse to answer, or answered incompletely. If you have questions to ask that aren't answered by that Intro section, start another thread (probably under Etc) but don't sidetrack this or any other thread.

[loudcrow]

Spamming is the abuse of electronic messaging systems to indiscriminately send unsolicited bulk messages.
My post, which you have now deleted, was to ask the same 3 questions I posed earlier. I fail to see how
this could possibly be considered to be spam. No doubt you will delete this post too because it has
become abundantly clear you and others here don't mind asking questions but sure don't wanna
answer any yourselves. Whatever tickles your fancy.

Liz Roemer

[educatedindian]

There it is, that persecution complex we see so often in would be tribes. You don't help your own case.

Spamming is anytime you send the same message repeatedly, which is what you did.
Quit trying to change the subject and avoid answering the questions about Blackwater. And again, quit being so lazy that you don't bother to read the Intro section. You keep trying to change the subject so much you won't even give the name of the alleged Comanche ambassador.

Earlier I gave the example of the two Miami tribes. There was also a third group in Indiana called the Wea Band. Darryl Baldwin of the Miami language program described the group at a conference at Purdue as being made up of descendants. But it wasn't their lack of high BQ that bothered anyone. In essense they still had largely white mindsets, often making such mistakes as thinking they could be given all the details of ceremonies as soon as they discovered their ancestry.

I'd say Blackwater, at least what I see of them based on their members here, is not like Baldwin described the Wea. Some of you are doing good work, standing up for good causes. And some of the would be tribes would never have admitted their mistakes with the likes of the Billingtons. A few of the worser ones would have gotten more defensive, hidden them. Or worse, still clung to them, or split into pro and anti factions.

The only real flaw I see now is this tendency to freeze up at any criticism and hide behind this ridiculous claim of "Can't say, can't say, I'm not authorized."

Oh, and Nichols joined up a few days ago. I wish he'd tell us himself about being "chief in training of honorary members in Germany."

[Larry D. Nichols]

[Childish insults removed]

You Sir, have insulted not only me, my family and my people, but all Native Americans.

[Childish insults removed]

 Your demands and insults will not protect you, because I have seen many like you and I know what your intentions are toward Native American people. The Romans and European Americans used the same technique that you are using against Native American people as well.

[Did Nichols just claim the ROMANS attacked NDNs? He did...]

By the way, I personally know the Ambassador of the Comanche Nation of Lawton, Oklahoma as well. He is a very kind and intelligent gentleman and a full blood German. I have worked with him many years busting people like yourself. So as you see, you are not worth talking to

[libel and defamation removed. Apparently Nichols is in contact with, or naively choosing to believe, the libel put out by Nuage promoter John Lekay and white supremacist David Yeagley.]

who,s parents and grandparents all the way back through history had to go through pure hell because of [childish insult] will be dealt with accordingly. I,m sorry that I can not wish you all the best, you have made your bed so now you go sleep in it.

Kindly,

Larry D. Nichols

[Much like Liz, Nichols did everything possible to avoid answering any questions. Does anyone else have a hard time believing anyone would be foolish enough to make an overgrown child like this an ambassador, or "chief in training"?
-Al]

[dabosijigwokush]

[edit] Florida
In Florida, the Governor's Council on Indian Affairs in 1988 adopted a policy which recommends that state officials refrain from recognizing any group not first acknowledged by the federal government. However, they have set a secondary set of recommendations for what the criteria for state recognition should be in case the state government should wish to bypass the first recommendation: "A state action should (1) create a government-to-government relationship between state and tribe, (2) set forth an explicit rendering of the state's interpretation of 'recognition,' (3) be confined only to groups descended from Seminole, Miccosukee, Creek, or a tribe located in Florida prior to May 30, 1830, and (4) meet federal criteria for recognition."[16] So far, Florida has recognized no tribes

[crazyeagle]

oh dear dear dear.....

Al...[Childish insult removed]

1,No, Larry Nichols did not claim the Romans attack the indians nations and if you had left his original post for all to see instead of editing it as you have done,then all would be able to see how you have twisted his words.

2. David Yeagley and Lekay is not involved with the Comanche Nation Ambassador in Germany - why dont you phone Chairman Wallace Coffey to confirm this instead of [libel] [Veiled threat]
Oh and ask him about Larry Nichols who he knows personally and while you are about it ask Chairman Wallace Coffey if he has heard of me?...damn..think you are about to get a very unpleasant surprise from Chairman Wallace Coffey! [Threat]

3. [Sidetrack with personal insults] youand Moma P who seems to have disappeared are indeed asking us to prove these things..[Insults]

4. [Childishness]

5. [More childishness]

6. [Yet more]

[Al's note: Anyone else tired of the Blackwaters' childish trolling? Besides the emails of support I've already gotten.]

[Moma_porcupine]

Hi Crazy eagle . No I haven't disappeared . Still reading and trying to understand what it is you care about.

1. Do you believe that anyone with any amount of Native blood should be able to declare themselves of the Nation of their indigenous blood line - even if the Nation says they do not want to enroll the person ? 

Maybe your Nation has different standards than I am familiar with, but maybe if you think of it this way it will help you understand what the concern is.

So first lets just look at individuals identifying themselves as Mi'kmaq. Imagine there was someone who had a registered Mi'kmaq ancestor 6 generations back . Imagine the Mi'kmaq Nation was kind and generous enough to acknowledge that connection in writting.

2.Would the Mi'kmaq Nation acknowledge this peron as Mi'kmaq or would they sbe more inclined to see this person as a non native trespasser and a theif if they claimed they were of the Mi'kmaq Nation?

3. If the Mi'kmaq Nation would not acknowledge or enroll an individual of some Mi'kmaq descent , should leadrs in the Cree Nation or Metis Nation be able to recognize these people as members of the Mi'kmaq Nation?
As cheifs or ambassados of the Mi'kmaq Nation ?

4.Would the Mi'kmaq Nation be concerned that if they acknowledged some of these distant descedants as Indian , that they would be pressured to ackowledge all their many many distant cousins too?

5. How do you imagine that acknowledgement of all these distant relations would affect the soverienty of the Mi'kmaq Nation?

6. Would this increase in numbers make the Mi'maq Nation stronger , or just indistinguishable from the non native population?

7.Would the voices of the many who could claim this distant descendancy be so many they would drown out the voics of the Mi'kmaq who had managed to hold on to at least a recognizable chunk of their culture and their identity?

Imagine this person and some of their cousins got together and called themselves the Green Water Mi'kmaq band. Imagine they begin demanding recognition as Aboriginal people and they declare themselves a First Nation and send Ambassadors to Germany.

8.Within the norms of your Nation would that be acceptable behavior?

9.If someone did that, wouldn't it be entirely reasonable to expect them to provide references amoungst the recognized Mi'kmaq tribal leaders who could let people know they were not moving into Mi'kmaq identity in a way that was trespassing, before giving these people recognition?

10. How do you think people claiming to be Blackwater Muskokee are different than people claiming to be Mi'kmaq in similar circumstances?

I really am curious how you and Zoi see this, and if you truly care about the respect and recognition of the soverienty of First Nations or tribes how you imagine supporting groups of distant descendants making these claims is likely to affect this.

Please excuse the numbers. I don't mean to be rude I just want it to be clear what I am asking you to consider...
       

[justmeagain]

I am new to the group correct me if I am wrong, from the subject line I am reading postings of the Sr. Administrators:

1. I am trying to understand is this forum defining all Tribes who have not been Federally nor State Recognized as Frauds?

2. Or is it just those Tribes who have documented proven actions that show evidence of Monetary or Cultural Fraud Activities?
 
3. Does this forum define all (PODIA) as just non Indians (white) whether enrolled or non enrolled, regardlesss of geographical birth, location and Tribal Contact and Indian Commnunity Involvement?

4. Many active Enrolled Tribal Members of the well known Federally Recognized Oklahoma Creek Tribe and the Eastern Creek Poarch Band, are persons of 3rd to 7th generation (PODIA), due to their Tribal Code Enrollment Requirements, yet they are Federally Recognized Individually and by their Tribes that are both (BIA) Federally Recognized and they are not (Fake Creek Indians) as has been suggested on this forum.

5. Is this forum here stating (PODIA) are not Native Americans just because they are (PODIA), yet they are Federally Recognized by (BIA) Bureau of Indian Affairs and by Certified tribal letter from the Federally Acknowledged Tribe of their Descent?

6. Is this Forum suggesting unenrolled Federally Recognized Creek Indians of (PODIA) who are recognized as part of their Tribal Community as being(non Indians)?

7. There are many Individual Federally Recognized Creek Indians who are not enrolled, but are Registered with their Tribe and descend from the Rolls of a Federally Recognized Tribe. Many of these Creek Indians qualify for BIA Federal Recognition by the Bureau of Indian Affairs through (CDIB) and by their local certified Federally Recognized Tribal Letters. They still maintain their Tribal Culture and have contact with their Tribe and are Officially accepted by Bureau of Indian Affairs as Native American.

8. Is this Forum declaring a federally Recognized (PODIA) is not a Creek Indian, nor Federally Recognized, when written documented evidence has  been posted, shown and proven to the contrary?

9. Is this Forum questioning the freedom of a Federally Recognized Creek Indian, descended from the the Rolls of a Federally Recognized Tribe, to practise culture in the way he or she freely chooses, yet no documented evidence by the Forum has been produced showing he Individually has commited a Fraud when on the other hand, he has produced documents proving his Federally Recognized Creek Tribal connection?

10. Regardless if the Individual in question at one time, was a member of an Unrecognized Indian Tribe or Indian group that made obvious mistakes in enrolling members, as many Indian Tribes or groups have done. This in no way denies his right as a Federally Recognized Creek Indian to freely participate in promoting his Indian heritage and culture as he chooses as long as it does not break the law, or Title 25 Federal Indian Code.   

11. I respectfully request the Forum to consider defining their definition of who is a Fraud Indian or a Fraud Indian Tribe, (PODIA) and etc. in Legal Terms, so all Federally Recognized and Non Federally Recognized Native Americans may understand your purpose as a Forum?

12. The Individual named in this Forum has proven with Tribal Certified Creek Documents he descends from the Rolls of a Federally Recognized Tribe, so be it!
[libel removed]
 just because an unrecognized Tribe or Group chose to give him a letter of mandate. Why would he even need that letter, when he has been Recognized by a Federally Recognized Tribe, free to practise his heritage and culture?

[Childishness]

SIGNED

Just me: I am who I am, no one else!

I have no affiliation with the Tribe or group in question, so I cannot personally be attacked in this regard, but I do protest the rights of a Federal Recognized Creek Indian and all Federally Recognized (PODIA'S) ENROLLED AND NON ENROLLED.

[libel removed]

[educatedindian]

1,No, Larry Nichols did not claim the Romans attack the indians nations and if you had left his original post for all to see instead of editing it as you have done,then all would be able to see how you have twisted his words.

2. David Yeagley and Lekay is not involved with the Comanche Nation Ambassador in Germany

CE, you'll do a lot better if you argue about things that I actually say, instead of things you make up.

1. Technically Nichols said the Romans "used the same techniques" against the Indians. Fact is, Roman and Indian contact of any kind (outside of some disputed claims about shipwrecked sailors) just didn't happen. Nichols is spouting X-Files type nonsense.

2. Nichols is repeating libel that came straight from Lekay and Yeagley. No one mentioned the alleged ambassador except you.

We don't reward childishness in here. Nothing was removed except childishness, and the libel that Nichols got from Lekay and Yeagley.

Nichols, Liza, and yourself are doing all you can to avoid answering what we all think is very likely. There's no sign the actual Muscogee know you, outside of an office letter confirming Nichols had one ancestor six generations ago.

[educatedindian]

I am new to the group correct me if I am wrong, from the subject line I am reading postings of the Sr. Administrators:

1. I am trying to understand is this forum defining all Tribes who have not been Federally nor State Recognized as Frauds?

2. Or is it just those Tribes who have documented proven actions that show evidence of Monetary or Cultural Fraud Activities?

For a new member, you repeat the Blackwater's habit of failing to read and making things up exactly.

Go to the Who We Are section and quit trying to sidetrack us, exactly as the Blackwater keep trying to do. Your repeating their childishness doesn't help them.

What we keep asking them is far more important: Do the closest alleged relatives recognize you as relatives?

All we've gotten is a letter saying a single one (and we still don't know if the Blackwater number more than half a dozen or so) of the Blackwater had a single ancestor six generations back.

So for the extremely lazy Liza, Crazyeagle, Justme, and any others, what you have all repeatedly failed to read in the Intro to the site.

"We are not especially concerned about anyone's blood quantum, enrollment status, or family history. The only time we would care was if someone had lied in order to "pass" or appear "more Indian" to justify their misbehavior."

Any more attempts to sidetrack this thread get deleted. Period.

Again:

Show us any proof the actual Muscogee recognize you as Muscogee.

There's also some other evidence we've found about the Blackwater and their honorary memberships in Germany. I'd like to hear your explanation of that.

Ironically we never would have uncovered it if you had just come straight out and admitted to being a heritage group of people with descent. That, and the dozens of evasive/childish/libelous posts.