Blackwater Muskogee tribe

[Moma_porcupine]

justmeagain
I don't think anyone suggested all PODIAs are frauds. It is just when a small amount of Native blood gets exaggerated into a full blown Native identity with entitlements to culture or resources or a voice in tribal decision making , that PODIAs can become a problem. I don't think anyone accused Larry Nichols or the Blackwater Muskokee of being a fraud.  This catagory is Research Needed, and a lot of stuff gets posted here which is in a gray area where what is right and wrong, isn't clear, but there is controversy.

I expressed my own opinions on these definitions already at great length in the threads below , so I doubt there is much that would be answered if I reply to all these points, though maybe someone else has some thoughts to contribute .

Questionable tribes and Indian idenities
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=846.0

PODIAS
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1111.0

Advice for critics of NAFPS
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1267.0


A lot of the things you are imagining people said that you feel are unfair were never said.

If you read what was said in the above links, maybe some of the attitudes here will make better sense to you. I don't think anyone thinks PODIAs , in themselves, are frauds. Lots of the really good people who post here are PODIAs. It's not any kind of a put down. It just means PODIAs shouldn't expect automatic entitlement to anything that belongs to Native people.

[justmeagain]

Mama,

Thanks for your reply:

Strange that this is called a Forum, yet my honest sincere questions and respectful posts to you and the Educated Indian's accusations have been deleted and not posted?

What do you think your sincere Native American Suscribers think about that? You both know I speak the truth about the one accused! If you are an Honest, Serious Forum you would repost my response that was so quickly deleted. To delete a sincere response, is "to hide the truth" to keep others in the dark, so they don't know.

Respectfully,
just me again

[justmeagain]

Please allow me to give a fair response to Educated Indian's last post to me, as he quickly deleted my post and why? When truth is told it doesn't have to be deleted, let the people read and decide for themselves. That is what a Forum is all about, right?

[It was spamming. And it's an attempt to sidetrack and avoid answering questions about Blackwater. You know very well that's why it was deleted, as was the spamming in this post, and all in any future posts.]

[bls926]

Larry Nichols' Mvskoke ancestor was six generations back. That would be his great-great-great-great-grandmother or grandfather. If he was claiming Cherokee, we'd be hearing Princess jokes. Providing that his Mvskoke ancestor was full-blood, Nichols would still only be 1/64 bq; if she was half, he would be 1/128; if she was one-fourth, he would be 1/256. You get the picture. Giving Nichols the benefit of the doubt, let's assume his ancestor was full-blood; he's 1/64. What about the other 63/64?? If you had one ancestor six generations ago and everyone since then married outside the Nation, how much Mvskoke tradition would you have grown up with? You're definitely not Indian. A descendant, yes. An Indian, no. And a group of people with similar background could not be a Tribe. A tribe is a continuous community. A heritage group, yes. A Tribe, no.

[justmeagain]

Thanks for your opinion,

You are only just assuming that all his Blood Lines of Indian Ancestry, have been accounted for and each Quantum calculated. His Letter of Certified Creek Acknowledgment from a Federally Recognized Creek Tribe was submitted in response to certain ones that questioned he was not Acknowledged as Creek Indian by a Federally Recognized Indian Tribe?

Yet he proved by Certified Tribal Letter that he descends from the Rolls of a Federally Reconized Tribe and is Free to Practise his Heritage and the Culture that is close to his heart. Something that many who claim to be Native American don't understand, but seem to think by their statements, only Blood Quantum alone is a factor that proves one being classsified as a true Native American?

Blood Quantum is important, but just one factor Tribes use in being able to determe the definition of who is Native American. It is true, that without any Indian Blood it would be difficult for one to be classifed as a Native American and I fully agree with that.  But the question remains to the Tribes themselves to determine their own method of Direct Lineal Descent or the minimum amount of required Blood Quantum they require to qualify for Enrollment in a Federally Recognized Tribe. Federally Recognized Tribes do use a Certified Tribal Letters to Acknowledge and Recognize one as Native American, who has proven connection to the TRIBE.

Pertaining to Tribal Acknowledgment and Enrollment procedures with the Oklahoma Dawes Tribal Descendants. Oklahoma Federally Recognized Creek Muscogee Tribe and some other Federally Recognized Tribes, which INCLUDE MOST DAWES ROLL TRIBES.

Tribal Enrollment in these and some Federally Recognized Tribes are not Based upon Blood Quantum, but the "Direct Lineal Descent" method of Enrollment, provided one can prove by documentation, Direct Lineal Descent from a Distant Creek Ancestor (s) named on the 1906 Dawes Rolls which were created over 102 years ago, multiple generations ago.

These Federally Recognized Tribes have their own TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CODE and as Sovereign Nations have chosen this method of TRIBAL Acknowledgment and Enrollment for their Creek Families. Many of the (Active members) Enrolled Dawes Roll Descendants connect 3 to 7 generations back to their Indian Ancestors on the 1906 Dawes Roll AND DO NOT AT ALL REQUIRE AN IMMEDIATE FAMILY MEMBER TO BE ON THEIR PRESENT ROLL, FOR TRIBAL ENROLLMENT ACKNOWLEDGMENT.

Who are we to discredit this method of Tribal Acknowledgment and the Tribal Enrollment of their Families. They know who their Families are. They are  Federally Recognized Tribes and are Sovereign Nations? Blood Quantum is not a factor, Family connection is what is a factor and I am sure Tribal Community Involvenment is important to those Indians who are really serious about Tribal Enrollment.

Poarch Band Base Roll Ancestors go back to the 1870 and 1900 Census, Distant Creek Ancestors. At present No IMMEDIATE FAMILY MEMBER is REQUIRED TO BE ON THE ROLLS. They are all Federally Recognized Sovereign NATIONS and should be allowed their own methods of Tribal Enrollment as the Bureau of Indian Affairs has approved. They know who their families are and who are we to prove otherwise?

Thanks,
justmeagain

[loudcrow]

I am not dodging answering questions here nor am I sidetracking to
avoid the issue. I have answered the questions honestly and to the
best of my ability. I have even told you what my real name is. I didn't
have to do that.  So sorry if you didn't like my answers and/or don't
agree with them.

Is the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee state/and or federally
recognized. Since their name does not appear on the list of state and/or
federally recognized tribes, I think it's safe to ASSUME they are not.
Only the state of Florida and the BIA can give you a qualified yes/no
answer. I certainly can't and you can't expect me to.

Are current/and or former enrolled members of Blackwater Native
American? Yes. We had to provide the same type of paperwork state
and/or federally recognized tribes require of members seeking enrollment.

Do other state and/or federally recognized tribes recognize the Blackwater
Water Band recognize us and welcome us as members of the Native
American community? Yes. The Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee
sent a delegation to Oklahoma approximately 4-5 years ago to discuss
frauds, phonies, the lawsuits we faced in Germany and cultural theft.
Seems reasonable to me if the Chiefs of these nations took the time
to personally meet with and speak with this delegation they recognize
my clan/family as being Native Americans. I will NOT give the names of
these Nations nor the names of the Chiefs with whom they met. It's
none of your business.

Do either Larry or I sell ceremonies, hand out phoney natural names
or engage in any other activity that would bring shame upon ourselves
and/or our people? Absolutely not.

Do we need permission from unidentified individuals on the Internet
and/or the NAFPS Forum to practice our culture or participate in it?
No.

Does that answer all your questions?

Is there something which is still unclear or something you still don't understand?

I will not give anyone the name of the Comanche Ambassador to Germany. Since
the Comanche Nation has not made this information available for public consumption,
it certainly is not my place to do so. Call me a liar, storyteller, and/or whatever other
names you want to call me because I do refuse to answer this question. If you
want those questions answer, contact the Comanche. I will not question decisions
made, titles given, etc. of a Nation in which I am not an enrolled member and have
no authority to speak for.  Please do not use my refusal to give this information
to unknown individuals on the Internet as "evidence" of my being a liar, avoiding
answering the questions, etc.

Please reach a conclusion on my people and please do it SOON. My patience is
running very thin and I am beginning to feel like I am banging my head against a
brick wall. I've told you who I am. I've answered the questions to the best of
my ability. Larry and I can prove we are Native American and that gives us the
inherent right to practice our culture and traditions. I placed 2 of the many
documents we have on this forum for everyone to see. We didn't have to do
that. Our hands are clean. We have nothing to hide.

When I woke up this morning, my name was still Elizabeth "Liz" Roemer. I still
had the same ancestors I've had for the past 55 years. I was still Native
American. Nothing can change that. No one can take that from me... not with
words and not with deeds. I am a decent, honest human being and have answered
questions posed on this forum despite the probing intrusive nature of those
questions and the sometimes nasty comments associated with those questions.
I'm not answering any more questions from unknown individuals on this forum
or anywhere else on the Internet. I simply do not have to. I answer to myself,
my clan/family, my friends and to Creator. Too bad if you don't agree with
and/or like my answers.

Liz Roemer

[zoi lightfoot]

I suggest before ANY of you go ant further you all re aquaint yourselves with 'THE PURPOSE OF THIS GROUP'
in Welcome and news.By that I mean all of its points.Now I suggest those peoples who want to find out if Blackwater is bogus,speak directly with Poarch Band and accertain from them if or who is bogus or not.Or is that too difficult a thing for folks to do?.I also suggest you digest very carefully what Napfs itself says it will or will not do.The reality is dispite the deletions this stuff is being sent out to the nations and peoples first and then posted on NaPFS,so i suggest you all loose the gossip and start coming up with cold hard facts and questions,NOT gossip.

[Moma_porcupine]

Justmeagain

They are all Federally Recognized Sovereign NATIONS and should be allowed their own methods of Tribal Enrollment as the Bureau of Indian Affairs has approved. They know who their families are and who are we to prove otherwise?

I agree.  From what you have shown us none of these federally recognized tribes have enrolled Larry Nichols. Have some respect for their decision - or did you only mean these federally recognized tribes have a right to say "Yes" but no right to say "NO".?

Even if Larry was federally recognized and enrolled, I still doubt the vast majority of native people would agree this entitled him to make up his own tribe and enroll people in it who had been turned away by other recognized tribes.
 
And that someone of such minor descent would presume to be entitled to hand out honourary memberships in Germany is a bit shocking.

You should note this thread is titled Blackwater Muskokee - it is not titled Larry Nichols. It is the legitimacy and entitlements of this tribe that is being disputed , not that Larry has some slight descent.

One thing I notice in this whole thread is that NONE of you so called Blackwater Indians have even once expressed any interest in the bigger picture, namely what happens to the long term over all recognition of First Nations identities and soveirnty, if anyone who has some slight descent is entitled to call themselves an Indian , practice the culture, or become a tribe with a political voice? The only interests you seem to have is about defending your right to be entitled to what belongs to Native people. Which seems to show where your loyalties lie, and they don't seem to be with protecting the long term identity and rights of the Nations you all want to claim. IMO that is one more thing showing you all are NOT Indians...

Again if a federally recognized tribe wanted to support you in your claims of being a tribe , I would have a different opinion but I see no evidence of this.

I have emailed the Poarch Creek tribe a couple days ago but still no response ... If you guys want respect for your claims it is up to you to organize references. No reply is not a reference.

[educatedindian]

1. You are only just assuming that all his Blood Lines of Indian Ancestry, have been accounted for and each Quantum calculated.

2. His Letter of Certified Creek Acknowledgment from a Federally Recognized Creek Tribe was submitted in response to certain ones that questioned he was not Acknowledged as Creek Indian by a Federally Recognized Indian Tribe?

3....Blood Quantum is important, but just one factor Tribes use in being able to determe the definition of who is Native American.

1. And you're assuming that his BQ for other lines have NOT been calculated. I'm pretty if there were other ancestors, he'd have paraded them before us as proof.

2. Actually, no. We asked for proof the Blackwater was recognized by actual Muscogee. The best they could do was give us this instead. We're still waiting for any sign the actual Muscogee have to do with them. A conference together, meetings, etc.

3.If you or the other Blackwaters had not been so lazy and either kept refusing to read the Intro section, or deliberately ignored it so you can keep avoiding answering the questions, you'd know we said the same.

Incidentally, since you claim to have no affiliation with them, according to at least some of them, this is all none of your business, you must be a "Euro", you can't be Native, and you're interfering and persecuting them and trying to interfere with their culture.

But that's according to them, not us.

[educatedindian]

The Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokee
sent a delegation to Oklahoma approximately 4-5 years ago to discuss
frauds, phonies, the lawsuits we faced in Germany and cultural theft.
Seems reasonable to me if the Chiefs of these nations took the time
to personally meet with and speak with this delegation they recognize
my clan/family as being Native Americans. I will NOT give the names of
these Nations nor the names of the Chiefs with whom they met. It's
none of your business.

....Do either Larry or I sell ceremonies, hand out phoney natural names
or engage in any other activity that would bring shame upon ourselves
and/or our people? Absolutely not.

Liz Roemer

Finally, finally, FINALLY. It took the Blackwaters dozens of posts, spam, dodging, ducking, avoiding, sidetracking, childishness, evasiveness (and occasional lying and even libelling NAFPS) to answer what was asked weeks ago. THERE is what we asked, ties between the two groups.

Whether this was or nor, it seems we won't know. Meeting to talk about a lawsuit, which might have implications for other groups, is not nearly the same as being recognized or having longstanding ties.

And then you had to go back to the same old pattern...ducking, avoiding, dodging, making a vague claim with no proof. Refusing to answer.

Do you really expect anyone to believe this meeting was "top secret"? Or that the alleged German ambassador is too? (I suppose that makes him a secret agent instead of an ambassador. Ambassadors are very public positions after all.)

There's that persecution complex again...

That still doesn't answer questions about some Blackwaters and honorary memberships to Germans.

Nor does it excuse some of them repeatedly libelling NAFPS and NAFPS members, though perhaps it was just anger and naiveness that led them to believe nonsense from the likes of Lekay and Yeagley.

[bls926]

BLACKWATER  BAND OF LOWER MVSKOKEES

Welcome to the BLACKWATER BAND OF THE LOWER MUSKOKEES web site.

We are a traditional band of descendants of American Indians. We try to honor our ancestors by living as much a traditional life-style as possible in today's world.

It is time for all nations to work together for our people. The time for discontent is over,  we must all return to our traditional ways. We must live as one people and speak with one voice.

We must.. For soon it will be too late and we will all forget our ancestry  and the old ones who came before.

It is the hope of our band that we all shall survive and be able to return to our old ways.

http://theblackwaterband.tripod.com/index.htm


Tribal Leadership

Chief:  Robert Watson  "Bear Hunter"
Vice Chief:  Timothy Tolbert "Turkey Caller"
Secretary:  Sarah White "Bear Heart Who Sings"
Treasurer: Dobbie Williamson "Cloud Thunder"
Tvstvnvke & Representative to Germany : Larry D. Nichols "Strong Wolf"
Tribal Tvstvnvke: Leon Watson

Council Members:                                                                                 
Steve Ford "Screaming Eagle"
Aubrey Freeman "Lone Eagle"
Donnie Thompson "Lightning Bear"
Jeane Nichols "October Moon"
Bobby Tyree "Winddancer"

Registered Agent:
Brenda Tolbert "Emerald Waters"
Tribal Mother:
Diane Watson "Fire Wolf"

Tribal Princes
Erin Ford "Rising Fawn"

http://theblackwaterband.tripod.com/id17.htm


Guess they haven't updated their website in a while. Nichols aka Strong Wolf is still shown as their Representative to Germany.

I find it strange that quotes from Chief Seattle, Suquamish, and Black Fish, Shawnee, are used on their website; but no quotes from any Mvskoke, not from the past nor the present.

Also odd that under Related Links, they include the link to CNO, but do not have the link for the Muscogee (Creek) Nation of Oklahoma nor the Poarch Band of Creek Indians, the only two federally recognized Creek Nations. No links to any state-recognized Creek Bands or Tribes either.

[frederica]

Justmeagain,  you have me comfused. Your orginal post is still there. The one with the questions. It hasn't been deleted. An example of what I consider a PODIA would be as follows. And this actually happen. I was at a Club, invited by a friend. It would be what I consider a Heritage Group or Club. A young woman walked up to me and began a conversation. She stated she had been looking through a family photo album and saw a picture of a woman that was Ndn. She asked who this was. And the reply was that is your Ndn relative. So she decided to come and join this Club to learn about her Culture. She didn't know the Nation, there were never any past tiies to the Ndn community or Nation. The problem I saw was that most people in the Club were pretty much doing the same thing. So they would grap a little from this Culture or that one. The problem with this is not only does the the person end up with a wrong picture. Most Heritage Groups are social and do no harm. Some of these Groups/Tribes have presented themselves as legimate and made themselves eligable for Grant money. A one case senerio is within the past couple of years a "Tribe",  unrecognized by anyone, managed to obtain Indian Education Monies. Now a lot of time, and effort is spent trying to get the money back and distributed to where it rightfully belongs. I don't know how much of this you have seen one way or the other, I've seen quite a bit. So I might ask questions. And to me a question is just trying to obtain some authorative information.  CNO has a list of well over 250 faux  and /Internet Tribes. The Lenape' have a handful. And  a good majority of them are always asking for money or donations. I know the majority do not give back to the Nation they claim. So where goes the money. That's why I always have questions.  

[justmeagain]

Again, [Childish insults and lies]

AN ACTUAL CERTIFIED DOCUMENT THAT IS DERIVED FROM A FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBE BEEN POSTED. THAT DOCUMENT RECOGNIZES THAT THE INDIVIDUAL IN QUESTION. HAS DESCENDED FROM THE TRIBAL ROLLS
OF A FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBE, WHICH MOST OF YOU WHO SEEM TO BE PROTESTING DO NOT ACCEPT, THOUGH IT HAS BEEN PROVEN VALID BY IT'S NOTARIZED CERTIFICATION AND SIGNATURE FROM A THIS FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBE, THAT YOU ALL HAVE NOT CHOSEN TO ACCEPT.

You state this Forum is strictly to prove the Balck Water Band is not a valid Tribe, yet
[libel deleted]

[Spam deleted]

[Insults deleted]

[Spam deleted]

I ask you accusers again, present your evidence to the contrary about the Individual
[libel deleted]

Regards
justmeagain 

I am bored with this thread [Insults deleted]

[loudcrow]

[Spam deleted]

Has I have stated before, I have not spammed (unless you
consider me asking the 3 questions again, spam), have not
dodged, avoided, sidetracked or lied.  But if you feel [Insults deleted]

From Al:
 Whether this was or nor, it seems we won't know. Meeting to talk about a lawsuit, which might have implications for other groups, is not nearly the same as being recognized or having longstanding ties.

[Spam deleted]
Does this have implications for other people or groups
of people who insist on calling themselves something they are not
or misrepresenting themselves in the public eye? You bet it does!

Selling honorary memberships to Germans?
Where is the proof?

And which members of my clan/family have repeatedly libeled NAFPS
and/or its members? Cut and pastes and login names from this
forum please?
[Insults deleted]

Lekay and Yeagley? I don't know them. What do they have to do
with any of this?

[Insults deleted]
[Spam deleted]

I agree with justmeagain. I'm done here. I have nothing more to
say nor will I answer any more new questions and/or accusations
[Spam deleted]
[libel deleted]

Liz Roemer

[bls926]

If my previous post is deleted, it will be obvious that the administrators have chosen to "hide the truth" and "hide facts" that are well known in
Indian Country. There is nothing you can do or say to change the facts, that you accusers do not seem to accept. If this is a real Forum about Fraud Native Americans, the subscribers would be allowed to see the postings, as long as they show the facts and tell the truth. I am bored
with this thread and done for good unless evidence with the documents can be produced to answer my questions about the Individual you have
slandered by name, many, many times over on this thread.

REGARDS,
JUSTMEAGAIN

What facts? What truth? NOTHING you've posted is either fact or the truth. If you were in Congress, they'd call it filibustering. A lot of words with no meaning.

Fact: The Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokees is not a recognized Tribe, not federally or by the state of Florida. So, the "official" document stating that Nichols is their Representative in Germany amounts to nothing at all.

Fact: The letter from The Poarch Band of Creek Indians states that Nichols is a Mvskoke descendant, nothing more and nothing less. He's not Mvskoke enough to be enrolled with the Poarch Band. And nothing has been posted stating that the Poarch Band recognizes the Blackwater Band as even being Mvskoke descendants.

Why has so much emphasis been placed on Larry Nichols? He's the face, the voice, of the Blackwater Band of the Lower Muskokees in Germany. He's the one holding Powwows. He's the one making Germans honorary Mvskoke and giving out names.

Why are you so intent on defending the Blackwater Band and Larry Nichols? You said you weren't affiliated with either. You obviously have a dog in this fight. So, what is it?