Re: Discussion with Moma P

[NDN_Outlaw]

I was wondering why this thread was so intense for five pages. Mr Ric lives 120 miles or so north of me in the heart of Metis Country Green Lake I belief. The Green Lake people were part of a transfer of landless Metis from Lestock Saskatchewan. They were herded onto cattle cars and as they were leaving the town people burned their homes. They arrived late in the season and threw together cabins as best they could but the harsh Saskatchewan winter was a rough time for them.This was supposed to be a humanitarian gesture by the Provincial Government but a lot of people suffered. This was back in the 1940s. Most left for parts unknown. Those hardy few who remained were and are a proudly independant bunch. The Cree called the Metis, "the people who own themselves". Little known fact the Metis represented over one fifth of the entire plains Indian population. Hey Ric shes not the Canadian Government and I do think she trying to be nice:)

[bls926]

I was wondering why this thread was so intense for five pages. Mr Ric lives 120 miles or so north of me in the heart of Metis Country Green Lake I belief. The Green Lake people were part of a transfer of landless Metis from Lestock Saskatchewan. They were herded onto cattle cars and as they were leaving the town people burned their homes. They arrived late in the season and threw together cabins as best they could but the harsh Saskatchewan winter was a rough time for them.This was supposed to be a humanitarian gesture by the Provincial Government but a lot of people suffered. This was back in the 1940s. Most left for parts unknown. Those hardy few who remained were and are a proudly independant bunch. The Cree called the Metis, "the people who own themselves". Little known fact the Metis represented over one fifth of the entire plains Indian population. Hey Ric shes not the Canadian Government and I do think she trying to be nice:)

Why was this thread so intense for five pages? The person who started this thread and several of the others who were attacking Moma had an agenda. They were called out on the thread about the Blackwater Muskogee and thought to cover their collective ass by attacking Moma. Deflection at its finest. That was the reason for my post on the 22nd. It wasn't that I thought NDN_Outlaw was criticizing Moma. I didn't want anyone new to the forum to think Moma had a history of demanding answers from everyone, but was unwilling to give any information about herself. It's not like that. She and I both feel pretty much the same way about this. If someone is wanting to "play Indian" in their own backyard . . . have at it, knock yourself out. If they're trying to influence others, politically or spiritually, if they're setting themselves up as some kind of authority on all things Indian, if they claim to speak for the Native community, if they're soliciting donations . . . be prepared to answer questions about who you are and what Nation claims you. Simple as that. Creator help you if you're lying.

[Moma_porcupine]

MoonieSixkiller

MaMa P has NOTHING to prove to anyone. Unless she is sitting here defending the actions of the ones that we are all here trying to stop, and I haven't seen that happen yet.

Thanks MoonieSixkiller

Re reading all this, I think the feeling underlying the objections to me asking questions as an anonymous person who also isn't claiming to be from an indigenous Nation, is based in the feelings of resentment towards non native people who all to often assume they have the right to tell Native people whats best for them.

As an anonymous person who doesn't claim to be speaking from my own indigenous cultural background , I think the possibility that I am a non native person asking questions , who has the opinion they know better than NDNs about how to do things , stirs up some legitimate associated resentment.  If the people involved are really who they say they are this resentment may be real, and if they aren't this resentment may be contrived to gain support, as they know it is a sore point for many Native people.   

In my mind , the bottom line is this; If I , as an anonymous person, with no claim of an indigenous cultural heritage, am in a position to either support, or purchase, information, a service or product, I have every right - and even a responsibility - to question the ethics and legitimacy of this information , service or product, and to make objections if this information , service or product is something I do not think should be supported...

If the information , service or product which is being offered is only available to people who can show they are enrolled in an indigenous Nation, then only people enrolled in these indigenous Nations have a right to question this or make objections to the quality of what is offered...   

As an anonymous person I agree it would be obnoxious, if I ever  presumed to tell a Native person what to do with their own culture within their own community.

[Ric_Richardson]

Tansi;

Just to clear things up, I do support those who use their unique and individual talents and Gifts, to expose frauds and others who are intent on abusing Aboriginal people.

My disclaimer about not supporting any anonomous individual was not directed only at M.P., but was my way of saying that I will remain cautious about any anonomous individual, and will not blindly support anyone, as an individual, unless I know them very personally.  Just as many times, there have been people who come here, establish themselves and then we learn more about them, I maintain my position.  Having met, in times past, some of the COINTELPRO gang, I am just cautious.

As to disagreeing about many things, this is healthy and I do not expect to have all people agree with me all of the time.  When we enter into Respectful debate, we all are able to learn.  I think that M.P. and I have long since resolved many of our differences, so do not want anyone to think that I hold a grudge, because I don't.

NDN Outlaw- The Green Lake story is like a Canadian Holocaust and the land issue is still unresolved!  Not many people know about the houses being burned, while those who were forced to move, could still watch them burn, knowing that they could not go back.  My wife and I own the former Meadow Lake train station, where the people got off of the train, to be taken by truck, to Green Lake.  We preserved it, in Green Lake, in order to hang on to this part of our history.

Ekosi
Ric

[Moma_porcupine]

Ric

I will remain cautious about any anonomous individual, and will not blindly support anyone, as an individual, unless I know them very personally.  Just as many times, there have been people who come here, establish themselves and then we learn more about them, I maintain my position.  Having met, in times past, some of the COINTELPRO gang, I am just cautious.

I think we both agree on that Ric. Especially online and on a open website dealing with many controversial topics. In many cases, the people posting here  could be anyone and people should mostly trust their own common sense... This is especially true of an anonymous person , such as myself.

Ric

I think that M.P. and I have long since resolved many of our differences, so do not want anyone to think that I hold a grudge, because I don't.

Thanks . The feeling is mutual ....

[apukjij]

well the feeling is not mutual for me, to quote zoi fraud
   "but the reality is this,you've lost some members and a sizable     number all indian,are no longer prepared to put up with her cross examining them as though they were personaly responsible for every fraud taking place in the world,"
thats exactly whats happening. ask ardy who will never post here again, ardy who is one of the most avid Warriors my Nation has ever had and the only Clanmother who was invited to speak and teach the youth at the Burnt Church Fishing Crisis, by the War Chiefs in attendance, many who came from the US to add thier support,

i myself was attacked, and provoked, and recieved personal messages which people felt i was being "attacked" "singled out" one person said she was "attacking your Culture and Tradition" mommap sidetracked threads in which i had been posting more than once, even resulting (the thread) it being split without the knowledge of the posters. she quoted out of context statements, from facebook, which in my attempt to provide context resulted in further attacks,
even the one person i named to come help me in this attack publically refused; then they send me a pm stating "we need to maintain a unified front" but not if it meant them sticking their head out of thier turtle shell and publically state stand up to mommap.

now by her latest postings it seems she has spent hundreds of hours researching cap and the maritimes,  so as soon as Maritime Natives joined she pulled them into her political ministrations, twisting words and posts from other websites to fit her political agenda, now i understand why i was attacked,

but i stood up to you and will continue to do so as long as you continue to use NAFPS for your own political ministrations, ive been on the activist path for 25 years and ive seen people like you come and go,

the saddest fact in all of this mess, is that in the nest of NAFPS, because of the work you have done exposing frauds, the rest of NAFPS is afraid to look at the Emperors clothes you are wearing so proudly before them.

[Moma_porcupine]

Hi Apukjij

For people who haven't been following this , the discussions you felt were attacks are in the links below. 

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2456.0

This first one is the discussion with Ardy, and Apukjij, I agree, and I now understand that she is who she says she is, and my suspisions about her identity were wrong. I'm really sorry for that.

 When I didn't understand her response to my question about the obituary which appeared to say Ardy was Carl Trask, and i told her I really was a Porcupine, I think that is the first time , in participating here , that IMO I have been outright rude to someone, and I really regret that.

Personally I feel really bad about that, because that was rude . And i don't think it is good to be rude to anyone. I guess it is a good thing I tried this on someone who actually was who she said she was, as I won't be doing that again.       

But I am the one who looks like an idiot not Ardy...

But I don't regret expressing concerns about her public blanket condemnation of the elected leadership of her Nation, or asking about why she calls herself a Chief.

That discussion about Ardy got split into another thread on Treaty benificiaries, because i asked about why you and Ardy seemed to be trying to encourage PODIAs to feel they deserved to be included as individual benificiaries, rather than seeing these treaties as Nation to Nation. That discussion is below 

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2459.0

And , again, I feel really bad that I came across as badgering you. I guess i don't tolerate what seems to be people contradicting themselves very well, but I feel really bad that I got distracted by your personality. Because the issues are whats important, not me trying to force you to conform to my own ideas about clear communication. And I am also really sorry about that.

I have also felt attacked in this discussion, and attacked by you Apukjj, but really , I don't think thats important... And it's hard to know how people intend things, so why should I assume the worst?
 
I posted this link with information about CAP quite a while ago and even discussed some of this with you privately last September, shortly after you joined NAFPS .

http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcwzmv4g_60dzqrvcgp

 At that point I thought we seemed on friendly terms, and I thought you also had some concerns. Maybe I misunderstood your response.   

Because now it seems this whole post is because you are taking what I posted about CAP yesterday, in the thread on Treaty benificiaries and PODIAs, as something personal ?

( In the second newagefraud link above )

what I posted yesterday is below...

http://docs.google.com/View?id=dcwzmv4g_121d9rjrpdv

My research on CAP began quite a while before you joined NAFPS.  I've mentioned this in PMs with various people including Al, and my original concerns about this have nothing to do with you. I'm sorry you are interpreting this as a personal attack. It really isn't.

This only came up in relation to you, because in the thread on Acadian Metis in NAFPS, and on facebook, I saw you suggesting to PODIAs that they join the CAP affiliate in your area.

Which did make me wonder...

But you are making a mistake to think this is personal or that I am only bringing this up to make you uncomfortable.

Personally, this situation feels really crappy for me.   :'( I  really don't enjoy pointing out things people don't want to hear, when I would rather get along with these people . I'd like it if people such as yourself liked me. I don't want anyone to think I am a jerk, especially not people who are actual Native people who are trying to help their people . It would be so much easier and probably more personally rewarding for me if I just accepted the support you gave me initially, and didn't ask any questions.

But if I'm right about CAPs underlying agenda, it's a lot more important for me to bring this to peoples attention, and ask questions that may make all of us uncomfortable, than to say things people want to hear, just because i want you to like me.

And if I'm wrong and there is no truth in what I am saying, well , you are free to point this out and defend CAP.

But Apukjij, maybe it is CAP that is the Emporer who doesn't really have any clothes.

And if that is true, why does someone saying it bother you ?

[apukjij]

i accept your apology, and i reject you trying once again to hi-jack the thread, with that being said, its now left up to the reader to decide.

[Moma_porcupine]

I'm not understanding what you are saying... Which thread or threads did you feel I hijacked?

[Superdog]

i accept your apology, and i reject you trying once again to hi-jack the thread, with that being said, its now left up to the reader to decide.

that one kinda confuses me too....

Moma P has been nothing but straight up and honest, she's admitted all her mistakes and has done nothing but try and make peace with you while attempting to understand you Apukjij.

Not sure why you're attempting to discredit her and saying she sounds like John Williams (which she doesn't) and I'm also not sure why, even after she's apologized to you and admitted her mistakes, you still throw a cold shoulder at her....

I think that's what she, (and others who are reading like myself) are trying to gather from you.  If you feel personally wronged...spell it out, but she seems to have addressed where she's wronged you and apologized for it, but in acceptance of her apology you also threw another slap at her....which means you haven't accepted anything, so for the sake of all of us reading...spit it out.  What exactly are the issues you still have with Moma P?

Superdog

[Moma_porcupine]

I have deleted my earlier post because I shouldn't be guessing about how things might look from Apukjij's point of view,  even if I sympathze with why he may be still feeling angry ..... If I still don't get it , whatever I say will probably just make it worse.