Re: Discussion with Moma P

[crazyeagle]

So Moma, ok...I have belonged to this site for a number of years as you know - I have seen numerous people asking you which Nation YOU belong to and as you refuse to answer this question I will assume(sweepingly) that you are in fact not native at all. Asking a person what Nation they belong to does NOT divulge identity or personal information.

Which leaves me and the rest of us to ponder this next question...what gives YOU the right to question who or what anyone does within the nations abroad or at home. And what gives YOU the right to expect answers from us? 

So, what nation are you from?

Looking forward to your answers!

PS:If anyone wants to ban me for asking a simple reasonable question..go right ahead. I wont stop asking Moma until I get an answer.I wont see any more from the Nations attacked by this person. Moma has said he/she wants this public so publc this is.

[crazyeagle]

oh and a really silly question here for you Moma,

How the heck do you expect Leonard to have email in prison?...maybe they supply inmates with all singing,all dancing laptops these days huh?..sarcasism off!

 

[educatedindian]

I've split the topic. Try not to sidetrack other topics with these questions again. Also, since these questions have been asked of her before, don't be surprised if she's not willing to repeatedly answer the same questions.

Speaking for myself, I've spoken with her repeatedly in private IMs over the years where she's given me enough information about herself that it'd be fairly easy for me to track who she is or at least narrow it down quite a bit. But given that she's asked me to keep her confidence, I respect her wishes as I have everyone else whose asked me to keep thigs to myself. She has given me no reason to be suspicious of her or her motives. I do not always agree with her, nor she with me, and we're both fine with that.

I also sympathize with her reasons for not wanting to give out information on herself, given what's happened to me, my parents, Mike Two Horses, and others in the past who've been targeted, harassed, libeled, even received death threats. 

[crazyeagle]

Al, I appreciate you standing up for a friend, but quite frankly it isnt just me asking these questions and no, it isnt good enough to take your word for it. A few private IM's and just enough info wont tell you exactly who MP is with all respect and we are not asking for this.

If she doesnt have the respect to answer what nation she is from then how can any of us have the respect to answer her very often probing questions.

We ALL have at some point been threatened/harassed so that as an excuse doesnt go down.

So...back to my question.

What Nation?...as I said before stating what nation you are from does not divulge personal information.   

[Tsisqua]

With respect...Im actually interested in hearing what nation Moma Porcupine is from since myself and my co workers were called into question and asked for personal information from Moma Porcupine....when I stated it was not safe to give out this info and I would not put others at risk by doing so due to threats...and the fact that many of us had small children...this was unacceptable to Moma Porcupine....and our refusal was used to 'try' to show us in a bad light....yet when I asked Moma Porcupine for her own info...it was declined....and from back dated postings across the board...many others have also asked....to no avail.

I DID however have the decency to say what nation I am from and also my co workers....as why would this be a big secret?......it is nothing to be ashamed of and it causes no personal threat or danger...so yes I too would like to know.

I was raised to believe that what is good for one...is good for another...there are no double standards.

With respect,

Tsissy

Added; http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1674.0

[zoi lightfoot]

Al I can respect the fact that she told you certain things in confidence,I have no intention of violating that confidence that exists between you both,but the reality is this,you've lost some members and a sizable number all indian,are no longer prepared to put up with her cross examining them as though they were personaly responsible for every fraud taking place in the world,yet consistently avoiding any question about her own attitude.Theres not one rule for her and another for everyone else,you don't need me to point out how wrong that is.Its time she lost the excuses and sorted her manners out,its a sad fact that those of us who are working our asses off on both sides of the pond are taking note of just how many get bogged down with her endless,personal and un neccessary questioning.and heres the thing Al,they are all Indian,go figure that huh?

[LittleOldMan]

Question please. .  If you agree that it is wrong to steal, corrupt, or use Native Ceremony for monetary or social gain and that you would like to assist in the fight against this practice,why, I do not understand then what difference your BQ matters or for that matter which, if any, Nation Claims you.  This board by putting questionable people and organizations to be researched offer a valuable service so that when we encounter this type of bravo/sierra we will be more able to countermand it.  Evidence the way this grandmother drum stuff is being taken care of.  What am I missing?  "LittleOldMan" 

[crazyeagle]

Hi Littleoldman...nice to meet you!

The question is not of BQ at all, the question raised is of someone - Moma - questioning those of the indian nations pointed and sometimes - maybe without meaning to be - offensive questions about their profesionalism,integrity and objectives. Also where she has repeatedly avoided on purpose answering a simple question - that of what nation she comes from. She deamns to know it of other people so why should she keep hers a secret from all here.

The point is, if indeed Moma is not native - what right has she got to question the nations especially when most on here work their ass's off to expose frauds.

I hope that answers your questions.

[LittleOldMan]

Crazyeagle.  If I understand you correctly the premise of the forum is not in question.  It is the way in which she interacts with others here.  As an aside I always have a box ,a large box, of Morton's salt sitting beside my keyboard I never attack a person only their opinions.  I have learned from past mistakes mine own as wall as others.  I am as always ready to stand in the gap when necessary.  Thanks again "LittleOldMan"

[wredgranny]

 Siyo all,I too do not believe in "attacking" persons,but that exactly what this "moma porcupine" does,and it is ALWAYS those of Native Peoples. IF she will NOT tell her Nation,then she have NO RIGHT to HAVE an OPINION on the Nations,fake,fraud,or real,she should speak ONLY on Euro issues,as she/he is Euro and proves repeatedly this is so. The ONE thing we have left is our Nations,and ALL Native Peoples are proud of that blood,no matter how much or how little,carded or no,one says with pride their Nation. Her/his "excuse" of "threats",and fear is rediculuse,any REAL Native People fight those every day of their lives. What make her/him any better than US? She/he DEMANDS we tell ours,who we are,where we are,and by what right do we speak,so now "moma porcupine" it is time,put up,or butt out of issues you have NO right to open mouth about! Educated Indian,I thought better of you,than to allow such disrespect to be shown my Peoples,on a board SUPPOSED to be helping them,once you cared about such things,and now you let this "one" he/she/it,to treat us so badly? If this is what NAFPS has become,there are many,many in my Circle who need to know to no longer trust this place as Native Peoples are being shown more injustice,not help. And oh,my,yes,my Circle is long,and wide,and covers many,many of our Nations,including those who CAN spread the word far and wide. It is time one MORE fake/fraud be fought,her/his name is "moma porcupine"
blessings granny

[Moma_porcupine]

I guess that I should first explain to people reading this that this discusion carries over from the link below . I suggested a new thread to talk about "me", as people keep using this to try to distract from the topic of the thread which was a group claiming to be a tribe which is friends with the people upset with me , for questioning their legitimacy   ;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1735.0;all

Myself from that thread

I just see this as a red herring . As far as I am aware , I have not made any claims about myself that need verification. If I have made claims that seem questionable, or if in any way something I have said that you can quote seems to undermine recognition and respect for Native identities, culture or soverienty , you are welcome to start a thread on me in research needed. However... if you have no substantial concerns, it would be better if you stopped trying to pull this thread off topic by trying to make it about me. Unless you want to focus on some specific concerns, I probably won't have much more to say about these unwarrented demands and attacks.

I will try to reply to some of this, but it would have been helpful if people had accompanied their comments with quotes showing what specific thing I said they found so disagreeable ...

crazyeagle

I will assume(sweepingly) that you are in fact not native at all. Asking a person what Nation they belong to does NOT divulge identity or personal information.

Assume what you want.

What good would it do if i told you something about myself that might give me more credibility in your eyes , and I didn't give enough information to verify any of it. Then I would really be a hypocrite when I asked people to verify their claims about themselves and I could rightly be criticized for this hypocrisy.    Maintaining the integrity of my position seesm a lot more important than trying to impress people on line .

My background is not impressive, but then niether is the back ground of some of the people you all seem to accept and defend as Chiefs of Nations...   Something I find both ironic and a bit amusing...
( and I'm not indirectly making any claims about myself ... who knows if some of them are even a bit of Native descent )

crazyeagle

Which leaves me and the rest of us to ponder this next question...what gives YOU the right to question who or what anyone does within the nations abroad or at home. And what gives YOU the right to expect answers from us?

I totally agree that what a person does within their own Nation is between themselves their own Nation and the Creator, but if what people are doing relies on an non native audience for support, it is a whole different situation, and as a general principal i think non native people do need to take a role in confronting these problems. 

Irregardless of my racial origins, i have many times been told i have good communication skills. So I use them here, in service of something I care about.

Are you saying that nobody can ask questions or determine if someone who is Native is being exploitive or decietful unless they have a higher BQ than the person who is being decietful > i wasn't aware there was a BQ requirement for telling the truth... or expecting this from others ...

This board alllows people who are entirely non native to ask questions. You never objected to that until I began asking questions of some of your friends. Are you saying Europeans should not be allowed to ask any questions of people claiming to be Indians , even if it can be shown recognized traditional leaders have objected to the sort of activities these native people are doing?

If so , how exactly do you expect European people to avoid supporting frauds and cultural exploiters?

crazyeagle

How the heck do you expect Leonard to have email in prison?

I actually didn't , but i can't send him a letter asking about Zoi as Zoi suggested and remain anonymous, so I was trying to think how I could take Zoi up on this suggestion.

crazyeagle

If she doesnt have the respect to answer what nation she is from then how can any of us have the respect to answer her very often probing questions.

We ALL have at some point been threatened/harassed so that as an excuse doesnt go down.

Could you quote exactly what you are refering to along with the link to the right page and reply number. You may have felt threatened because i ask questions which highlite when people are inconsistent and being not completelty honest in what they are claiming . if you feel threatened by that that is probably your own fault.

 Tsisqua

when I stated it was not safe to give out this info and I would not put others at risk by doing so due to threats...and the fact that many of us had small children...this was unacceptable to Moma Porcupine....and our refusal was used to 'try' to show us in a bad light...

Tsisqua this is just not true. What is supposedly your real name is posted on the other NAFPS board last december , and you participated in that discussion and never objected to it being there. Out of respect for you I never mentioned this inconsistency but I think you need to stop playing the drama queen about how unsafe it would be for you to explain who you are . It just seems dishonest and manipulative.

The conversation where all that came up is here;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1674.0;all

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/356

Tsisqua

I DID however have the decency to say what nation I am from and also my co workers....as why would this be a big secret?......it is nothing to be ashamed of and it causes no personal threat or danger...so yes I too would like to know.

So what - all that information is totally unverifiable.... Sorry if I fail to be impressed by claims that can't be verified.

zoi lightfoot

you've lost some members and a sizable number all indian,

Who are you talking about specifically? What were they doing that I commented on?

zoi lightfoot

Theres not one rule for her and another for everyone else,

No but apparently there is one rule for you and your friends and another for everyone else...

crazyeagle

The question is not of BQ at all, the question raised is of someone - Moma - questioning those of the indian nations pointed and sometimes - maybe without meaning to be - offensive questions about their profesionalism,integrity and objectives.

I question when people make claims that gain the public trust which may not be true.

crazyeagle

what right has she got to question the nations especially when most on here work their ass's off to expose frauds.

One thing I want to point out is that not everyone who does some Native activism is trustworthy or truly working in a consistent way towards Native rights . Larry Sampson is just one of many examples of people who use sensitive issues to grandstand and promote - themselves - often distracting from and undermining the work of other activists.

wredgranny

Siyo all,I too do not believe in "attacking" persons,but that exactly what this "moma porcupine" does,and it is ALWAYS those of Native Peoples.

Wredgranny ... You have posted here 12 times now and in every post except one you have posted to attack me , personally... and you say I am supposed to be more respectful... Whatever... ( roll eyes) The true Elders i know treat people with respect even if they don't deserve it . They don't go around demanding it from others. As you do. Believe me if you are not impressed with me i am less impressed with you. But oh well... The world needs us all for something and i don't hold it against you .
   
Could you please provide some quotes to show what you are calling "attacking" and a link to the webpage and the reply number.

I go after the truth in all situations and some of the people i have tried to hold accountable have been Native. So what?

wredgranny

IF she will NOT tell her Nation,then she have NO RIGHT to HAVE an OPINION on the Nations,fake,fraud,or real,she should speak ONLY on Euro issues,as she/he is Euro and proves repeatedly this is so.

LOL wredgranny your previous posts displaying your imagined psychic abilities have me sure you have 0 credibility ...

wredgranny

The ONE thing we have left is our Nations,and ALL Native Peoples are proud of that blood,no matter how much or how little,carded or no,one says with pride their Nation. Her/his "excuse" of "threats",and fear is rediculuse,any REAL Native People fight those every day of their lives. What make her/him any better than US?

You don't know my circumstances and it is my decision what to tell about myself. Lots of people post here anonymously or are Europeans but you aren't protesting that, only me and i guess it that have a working crap detector... and I'm good at expressing what it is showing me . As far as i can tell that is the whole basis of your complaint about me . Sorry but I don't feel sympathetic...

wredgranny

She/he DEMANDS we tell ours,who we are,where we are,and by what right do we speak,so now "moma porcupine" it is time,put up,or butt out of issues you have NO right to open mouth about!

For the last time, show me a claim I have made about myself that would gain me some position of public trust which cannot be verified .  I have made no such claim . However if I named a Nation or Nations I had some sort of connection with , and did so anonymously and that gained more public trust, I would be doing the very thing I object to in others, and then I really could be criticized for hypocriscy . So go ahead and believe I am an obnoixious European... I don't mean to be rude but I have to tell you wredgranny that you haven't come across as the kind of person that I generally care what you think ...

wredgranny

Educated Indian,I thought better of you,than to allow such disrespect to be shown my Peoples,on a board SUPPOSED to be helping them,once you cared about such things,and now you let this "one" he/she/it,to treat us so badly?

Want to provide some specific examples of what you imagine is me treating people badly? Again quotes, links and reply numbers are really a help ...

It seems to me it is you who is doing the attacking... and being disrespectful ...

And oh,my,yes,my Circle is long,and wide,and covers many,many of our Nations,including those who CAN spread the word far and wide. It is time one MORE fake/fraud be fought,her/his name is "moma porcupine"

I don't think I deserve that and accusing me falsely might backfire on you, but I'm not concerned. People need to learn to think skeptically and not believe everything someone posing as an elder in cyberspace claims .

[bls926]

I think this is the craziest thread NAFPS has ever seen. Moma has given no one a reason to accuse her of being a fraud. She doesn't make accusations, but raises questions. She's already done quite a bit of research before she even brings a group or individual to Research Needed. What difference does it make what Nation she belongs to or whether she's Native or non? Several of you are sounding really stupid with your posturing about if she isn't Native she needs to stay out of Native issues. You don't need a CDIB or enrollment card to know the difference between what's real and what isn't. Many people are working together on the Grandmother Drum issue, both Indian and non. Some of those who have done the most are white. Should they have just stayed out of it? That's ridiculous. Crazy thing is, the ones making the loudest noise here are newbies, people who have been here only a matter of weeks. Maybe y'all need to keep quiet, read the threads, and see how things get done around here. NAFPS is an excellent source of information.

Granny, where'd you get the idea Moma didn't know who Leonard Peltier is? Where did she disrespect him? I think you've got your panties in a bunch over nothing.

And the veiled threats to Al? Indian Country knows the value of this site; knows the work NAFPS has done to expose fakes and frauds.

[matt e]

I have spent time reading around the board, not always logged in. moma p has made a great contribution to this board.
 
   Yes, sometimes some of her posts come across as an attack, or accusatory. I do not believe she means them that way.
 
  She gives her opinion based on info she has received or found online that seems to her as contradictory, and asks for the input of others. based on the way she usually presents these questions, i believe she is asking to clarify, not to attack or malign anyone.

  It is human nature to fight back when it seems that someone is attacking you or someone close to you. both sides are right, it would hurt nothing for moma p to say which, if any, tribe she is affiliated with.
  Anyone stating that they are a professional of any kind, legal, mental health, doctor, etc. online should not take it as an attack if someone tries to look them up and can't find them online, then asks questions about what kind of professional they are.
 Just saying you are part of a group of professionals doesn't help. A brain surgeon and a heart specialists are both doctors, but I would put more weight behind the opinion of the heart specialist in a discussion of keeping the heart healthy.
   when someone criticizes us, take a moment to see if there is any basis for it, did we say or do something that came across wrong? are we doing something offensive without realizing it?
     As for perceived or actual accusations against someone who we consider a friend, perhaps instead of allowing ourselves to immediately become defensive(a natural reaction) we should look at what the person is saying to see if our friend is doing something that just comes across in a negative way, or if maybe they are doing something wrong, that they may not even realize so we can inform them of how they come across, or inform them of the wrong they are doing.
   

[Tsisqua]

Tsisqua this is just not true. What is supposedly your real name is posted on the other NAFPS board last december , and you participated in that discussion and never objected to it being there. Out of respect for you I never mentioned this inconsistency but I think you need to stop playing the drama queen about how unsafe it would be for you to explain who you are . It just seems dishonest and manipulative.

The conversation where all that came up is here;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1674.0;all

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/356

No...Im sorry Moma Porcupine...but you are wrong.

Actually the truth is I wrote to Frederica many weeks BEFORE I even joined the NAFPS Yahoo group... regarding who I am once I saw the above posting (Which I incidently found while googling my nick name out of curiosity one day)...TO CLEAR the matter up as people posting there were pulling up the name Tsisqua from across the net....wondering if I am 'this Tsisqua' or 'that Tsisqua'... Tsisqua is a commonly used name it seems and the people they had pulled up were women of all ages, all locations, various personal interests etc (Of which you can see from the thread you happily provided) but not one of them me as I do not put my own personal info on the net...which I have clearly stated in the past....and I explained to Frederica who I am...I am certain I still have the email I sent if needed.....So with respect, my real name as you say, has NEVER been posted anywhere on the net....and yes you are correct....I have not objected not even in my mail to Frederica...as it has NEVER actually happened....so there was no inconsistancy, no dishonesty and no manipulation as you have wrongly stated, but you would love for others to believe there was eh. Frederica also stated on the 'Tsisqua and Moma Porcupine' thread that the questioning from you was nothing personal...but clearly...this is personal.

From NAFPS Yahoo group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/388

Re: who is Tsisqua?

Tsisqua....being the Cherokee word for 'Bird' is nothing more than a
nick name...hence many people use it on the net...I even googled it
myself just to see how many people were using it...which is how I
located this posting a while back...

Im not 44...lol...or 35...Im 33 (Dang trying to make me look
old...lol sheeeshhh), Ive never lived in TN, but I have lived in
AZ...Phoenix (about 9 years ago), and I am not on the net claiming to
be someone I am not...as I have said in NAFPS...Im just a humble ndn
women who is sick and tired of fakes, Im not here to say 'ooooohhhhh
look at meeeeeee!'...yet I too understand the need to check into
members etc as I do it myself with NAU...

Just to clear up though....Im not a member of any New Age
site...twinkie site...well...we at NAU did recently join RNS but it's
difficult to read the twinkie postings of the ooooooh so many fakes
there 'without' being a member and drawing them in before exposing
them...so I guess that's 'my bad' on our part...lol

I joined Tribal America for good reasons...and left too for good
reasons...as Im sure you have all come to realize by the posting in
NAFPS forum...

But anything anyone wishes to know...just ask me..I dont bite...well
not unless asked nicely...

Our NAU email address is:

NativeAmericanUnity_Office@yahoo.com

Our NAU Site address is:

http://www.freewebs.com/americanunitymovement/

Our NAU MySpace is:

http://www.myspace.com/nativeamericanunity

So no harm done...actually made me smile

With respect,

Tsissy

Also... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nafps/message/390

Re: [nafps] Re: who is Tsisqua?


It was settled a while back, she is who she says she
is. We will still occasionaly check when it comes up,
you don't realise how many bears, redhawks, and
greywolves there are, till you start looking.
frederica

Moma Porcupine...you label me a Drama Queen, dishonest and manipulative by not wanting to give out my real name and address to you on demand? I fail to see how you have that right since you TOO refuse to give out your own information....would that not indeed make you the very same? Why is it you think you can bully others into submission when you yourself take great care with the information you give out? You said in the past since you are not running a website etc...you do not have to varify who you are....but since you call other native people into question here, and ask them for varification of who they are, surely you can see how others would wonder at your own credibility and varification? I mean no disrespect here...but no one has asked you to varify who you are, you have not been asked for your name, address, nothing probing (Not like you asked of me and our staff members)...just one question was asked...what nation are you from...but again...you've used it as a means to attack others on the board with disrespectful comments.

When there are a horde of fakes and frauds out there....this kind of thing seems futile and pathetic...playing a game of 'sh*t flicking' amongst ourselves shouldnt be our main focus here...and its not what I come here for...but when accusations are made on a public forum...people have the right to respond....yet when they do....they are labelled. There should be no double standards amongst posters and members here....95% of all people here come and participate for good reason...the other 5% come to feed from the negativity we have between ourselves...and we're feeding them huge portions of that eh.

With respect,

Tsissy

(Edited for spelling error and to add from NAFPS's Yahoo group) Tsissy

[crazyeagle]

Moma P..

Once again you have avoided answering a direct question,what is so hard about answering that question?

You waffle on about how the Nations NEED Europeans to help us out in exposing frauds..huh?...it is wonderful to be sure that Europeans help out with the goodness of their hearts  and I have as you may expect many european friends/african/west indian etc etc etc... but then they are open and tell me/us that they are not native,they are german or english or whatever nationality unlike yourself.

AND to repeat myself which I am getting a little weary of doing so..THIS isnt about BQ...so why you bring it up I dont know.

Good communication skills dont equate good people skills,something which you are sorely lacking with the indian people on here.

I dont want your personal history,none of us do..simply answer the simple question please(I was brought up well)

What is YOUR nation - everyone else here is open about their nation and YOU make sure of that with your demands for an intro,pointed explanations of who they are,where they are from,how do they justify themselves despite you not being admin. Unfair wouldnt you say?

So...What is YOUR Nation...simple answer will do without all the cuts and pastes. I am quite lazy and hate having to scroll down or up all the time through the waffle.