WRedGranny Spreading Lies on Other Websites

[Tsisqua]

Im kinda dissapointed...I did all I could to have the posting regarding my health and threats made to my children 'removed' from the net...Im a private person...as you know MP...and my heart condition and health is my own concern...but thanks for sharing it with everyone here.

Just to clarify...this was NOT written by myself (I see the writers name has been removed??)....as it was nothing to do with me...I was in ICU...and as soon as I came out of the hospital...and saw these postings...I asked Granny to remove them...of which Im sure she will clarify....as can others...for I was quite upset about this. This came from a personal Email between Granny and one of our staff...who has since left due to conflicting opinions. We've been hacked before...our forum closed down...much of our main site was also hacked....not to mention some of our site being closed down due to false claims made by Ravencrow to our host....I guess this is the way people feel necessary to 'shut people up'....as good as it gets eh.

NAU's email accounts had been hacked....not only once...but time and time again in the space of two weeks...all our information within those accounts lost....files...etc...regarding any case we were currently working on...and personal emails from myself to family...and visa versa...we then began to receive many threats...all posted on our NAU main site sent to us via the "Ask A Question" section....which shows no senders email address...it was clear whom ever was sending the threats....also had access to our email accounts since they were using the names of my little ones in person...naming their school...and various other personal information....so on and so forth....but I will not deny many of the threats we received were aimed  towards either 'me shutting Granny up on NAPFS'....or 'NAU keeping out of it'...I wont repeat the actual words used as the language was highly colorful. This is simply the truth of the matter...Im making no accusations...I hope that is clear....these threats could have come from anyone....this is the net afterall...and there are many 'oddballs' on it.  I had no way to discover who had sent these threats...but...the days listings of IP numbers visiting that particular page...and the times the threats were posted etc...have been forwarded to the correct authorities....who are dealing with this...as like I said...some very serious...worrying threats were made....so much so...I almost took down NAU...as it was becoming too stressful....since my 'condition' is now put here for all to see...I will clarify it...I have a terminal heart condition...one that requires a heart transplant...of which I can not have....so I am now living my days on a time frame....Im not asking for sympathy....Im trying to show how these threats made were obviously and clearly stressful...as they would be to anyone with children etc. Im not saying where they come from...for I do not know...and the staff member who emailed Granny...was also clearly upset and angry given the current situation.

Incidently...we've since gone with an email provider that is 'safe'....or 'safer' should I say....I guess I learnt something from this...Yahoo sucks.

With respect,

Tsissy

[Lonefeather]

MP I am having a hard time understanding why you have reposted Tsissy's personal information here, after you were asked not to before. You do not offer your personal information for all to see...do you find these antics appropriate?Why is it ok for you to keep your personal information to yourself and yet, you go out of your way to attempt to shed bad lighting on someone else?This is shameful and disrespectful.

[Moma_porcupine]

MP I am having a hard time understanding why you have reposted Tsissy's personal information here, after you were asked not to before. You do not offer your personal information for all to see...do you find these antics appropriate?Why is it ok for you to keep your personal information to yourself and yet, you go out of your way to attempt to shed bad lighting on someone else?This is shameful and disrespectful.

Tsisqua's friend wredgranny posted that not me. I am not wredgranny. 

Tsisqua
That sounds strange to have so many problems being hacked , and if you aren't sure who is doing it I can see where it would make you feel very uneasy . I'm sorry you have been having this type of problem

I saw you mentioned something similar back in March. 

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=319485276&blogID=369972761

 from March

We at NAU have received death threats to our office this morning, along with more attempts to hack into our system.

It sure seems these people, and yes I will name them: Sonja A Kattermann Lloyd (Owner of RNS ~ Red Nation Society), Maggie Gillfillan, David Yeagley, John Martin (working on behalf of David Yeagley) and John Lekay of HeyokaMagazine. com.......and their little band of followers, are taking all measures possible to try to stop NAU from releasing the information we have found regarding them and their 'activities'.  They may have hacked into ONE forum, but they may find it slightly more difficult taking out the 25 new forums we've since created, forums which hold the SAME information...plus the information they have no wish to be exposed.....Ooooppppsss!

As much as I can understand you wanting to know who is doing this, I was a bit uncomfortable that you would name all these people as being the ones who did it.

Do you mean it was a colaberative effort - that Sonja did one part of the hacking and then Maggie came in and did another and then John Lekay  came and did the next part and then John Martin finished it off, or do you mean you are accusing 4 people of doing something only one of them did but you don't know which one, which would mean you really don't know if any of them did this, but you saying they did ,as if it was a fact, even though it is just speculation on your part?

I really don't agree with making accusations as statements of fact, if you can't prove this. Personally i find even statements of suspision are usually better left unsaid if you can't back them up with some evidence.  Even though all these people create problems, accusing them of commiting a deed they did not do, only weakens your credibility , and when you are involved advocating for  Native rights it will weaken the credibility of this work as well, if this becomes mixed up with strange and unfounded accusations.

Tsisqua

their little band of followers, are taking all measures possible to try to stop NAU from releasing the information we have found regarding them and their 'activities'.

What information is that? Have you posted it here?

I'm not sure if information about people like Maggie and RC who are claiming to be Indian in cyberspace, who may be pretending , is much help to anyone to post here, as trying to prove or disprove such claims in cyberspace is probably not much more than an inflamatory make work project that creates a lot of resentment, but if you have new information on John Lekay, John Martin or Yeagley that you believe may have caused them to hack your site in order to surpress this information , i'm sure many people would be interested to see that.

[Tsisqua]

their little band of followers, are taking all measures possible to try to stop NAU from releasing the information we have found regarding them and their 'activities'.

What information is that? Have you posted it here?

I'm not sure if information about people like Maggie and RC who are claiming to be Indian in cyberspace, who may be pretending , is much help to anyone to post here, as trying to prove or disprove such claims in cyberspace is probably not much more than an inflamatory make work project that creates a lot of resentment, but if you have new information on John Lekay, John Martin or Yeagley that you believe may have caused them to hack your site in order to surpress this information , i'm sure many people would be interested to see that.

No...we posted it all in our own forum...which was hacked and closed....since it was our own concern regarding our own site....not to mention factual....and we did the right thing by keeping it on our own forums/groups etc...which is the right way.

And MP...you've made it clear on various threads you doubt every little thing I post...therefore anything with regards to NAU and any attacks made on NAU are posted on our own forums/groups etc...as Im sure you can appreciate....whom ever they come from...be it Maggie...or Lekay.

As much as I can understand you wanting to know who is doing this, I was a bit uncomfortable that you would name all these people as being the ones who did it.

These people were named as we had ample proof they were all working together on a hate attack towards ourselves and NAFPS...I have already messaged Al about these things in the past...of which Im sure he can clarify....I went to the man in charge here...as is the right way.....incidently...no matter your 'personal' opinion...there was no speculation on my part. Did AL not post Ravens words? Claiming NAU, NAFPS and Beaderman were all working together etc? Are her own words no longer here on this board?? I know they are...and I know Al did....as too did I post her postings from RNS which were made available to us by Maggie..

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1603.0


We also received emails from Raven...and others...providing enough proof they were working together...and were responsible for the hackings at that time...infact they took credit for it publicly...claiming they were all working together...we then opened up many forums and posted widely regarding Lekay and others...all fact...as I had informed Al of....but then...since apparently all emails...evidence etc I provide on other threads isnt enough...you can see my concern here....when is enough enough for you? NAU is our own concern...as too is who attacks it. I did not bring this here, you did...you took Grannys posting and brought it here...not Granny....and now you use that as a means to again...call me into question. Well...Ive had just about enough.

[Lonefeather]

MP...you seem confused.Allow me to clarify myself. Granny posted that private information on her site and it was removed before due to the fact that Tsissy is a private person and her personal business is her own. For some reason, this information was reposted...and YOU took it from there and brought it to NAFPS for all to see.Is this appropriate behavior on your part? You do not want or offer your private life here, why is it ok for you to take the same information about someone else, from somewhere else when you yourself would not want someone doing this to you?We all can see whats going on here.

[Moma_porcupine]

Lonefeather

And if I may add...constantly attempting to create diversions away from the actual fact being presented, are the antics of frauds/fakes

Lonefeather, I totally agree . wredgranny posted that information and made it public. Tsisqua elaborated and explained about her heart condition. For all "the public' knew she had been hospitalized for diarea , or nausea, or a headache ... Now she is the victim of her and her friends disclosures. I have no idea why either of you think this has anything to do with me , but that you are trying to make it into an issue just looks like you are here to troll. From now on I will be ignoring what looks to me to be obvious trolling behavior.

Tsisqua

I did not bring this here, you did...you took Grannys posting and brought it here...not Granny....and now you use that as a means to again...call me into question.

I asked wredgranny where this story thati s posted on her website came from. It is a really strange allegation, which discredits and defames NAFPS and all the work we do here. Me questioning where this story came from was directed at wredgranny as she posted it. Unless it came from you , why are you feeling I am bringing you into question on that specific incident. Are you wredgranny?

What I did question which concerns you is the story that Lekay, Martin and Yeagley hacked your website. I find this accusation to be very unlikely.   

Tsisqua

Did AL not post Ravens words? Claiming NAU, NAFPS and Beaderman were all working together etc

Beaderman appears to have a pretty bad reputation and he was posting here under the name "the rebel" , and you are posting here, so in a way it's true that NAFPS and NAU and Beaderman were / are all working together , though that doesn't mean that NAFPS members agree with , or are able to control what any individual member does. I guess if members get really abusive they get banned but I can't see what else NAFPS can do. 

What I recall Al mentioning was that after Raven Crow left here  , she turned to Lekay's freind Lavallee for support. That doesn't mean Lekay or Martin or Yeagley hacked your website.

The thing that makes me skeptical is simply that if the people you named - Yeagley, John Martin and Lekay - were going around hacking websites they didn't like, it seems yours would be at the bottom of a rather long list. Which makes me think it is unlikely you were targeted in the way you are imagining. At least- unless you can prove otherwise, the people you are blaming probably had nothing to do with it.

I don't know if your belief that RC hacked your site or made threats are true  , and if she did this it was very wrong of her to do.

Just from my own limited perspective, I feel bad RC felt alienated and personally attacked as although much of what she presented was overly emotional, personal and not at all well organized, and some of what she said just sounded like she has an active imagination,  i think at least some of what she was saying was true. If she hadn't been subjected to so many humiliating comments , she may have become an ally of NAFPS rather than turned into an enemy.

( edited to add - I see a couple of Lonefeathers posts were removed including the one I am quoting from, highlighted in red, which was directed at me. The posts removed basicly said the same thing as the ones left in . )

[educatedindian]

These people were named as we had ample proof they were all working together on a hate attack towards ourselves and NAFPS...I have already messaged Al about these things in the past...of which Im sure he can clarify....I went to the man in charge here...as is the right way.....i

Did AL not post Ravens words? Claiming NAU, NAFPS and Beaderman were all working together etc? Are her own words no longer here on this board?? I know they are...and I know Al did....as too did I post her postings from RNS which were made available to us by Maggie..

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1603.0

We also received emails from Raven...and others...providing enough proof they were working together...and were responsible for the hackings at that time...infact they took credit for it publicly...claiming they were all working together...we then opened up many forums and posted widely regarding Lekay and others...all fact...as I had informed Al of....

I wouldn't call myself "in charge". I'm one mod out of five. I suppose I should take it as a compliment, but then it leads to things like people who have a grudge against me for other work I've done taking it out on all of NAFPS. The best example of that are Lekay, Yeagley, and Martin coming after us solely because of how I've worked to expose Yeagley and Martin as the white supremacists they are.

(And that's something Granny or any taking her side still need to explain and apologize for, repeating word for word the smears put out by L, Y and M.)

Obviously NAFPS, NAU, and Beaderman have taken similar positions on some issues and been in contact with each other, but let's not overstate it. How long has it been since Beaderman has even been around, for example?

But to get back to the main topic: That is "Granny" choosing to spread lies on other websites, outright libel like claiming any threats were ever made from any longtime member of NAFPS.

That IS libel, plain and simple. It's 100% lies. Really, how credible is it that a history professor who uses his own name online all the time would issue death threats to someone? And if Granny doesn't apologize for it and remove the libel, then obviously she and anyone backing her loses all credibility.

Take care that this thread does not get sidetracked with nonsense like Crazyeagle's whining about the nonexistent "ban," or any attempts to make anything else the issue. That whining post was given its own thread, but hopefully we can avoid the same long, boring, overwrought persecution complex of PODIAs like we saw last time, who are unable to recognize they're being given far more latitude and a lot more patience than most get in here.

That includes also this attempt to sidetrack with allegations of personal information posted. That is something you need to take to PMs.

That means you LF. No sidetracks, like the Blackwaters have become notorious for, doing so for literally hundreds of posts.

I will ask again any of the Blackwaters who choose to come back: Will you stand up against the lies and libel that Granny is spreading? You should, because she is doing it in the name of protecting or defending or standing in solidarity with you.

[frederica]

Now I confused, how did JM, LeK and company get into this. I remember an IM from May 28, that NAU was hacked by a racist group, called gOOns. Then Sonja sent an email taking credit.  True, their old data was used for further libel, but the blog on death threats, kidnapping, terrorism and FBI is unique. That sounds more like FriedBread Mama lending a helping hand. But she would never post it, just suggest it. But it sure is a substantial libel case, as it definately can cause harm to the individuals being libeled.

[bls926]

The original NAU Forum crashed on March 24, 2008. The actual hacking was done by 'professional hackers', for lack of a better term. I don't think it's ever been proven who hired them. There were a lot of accusations that ravencrow had something to do with it; but I don't remember ever seeing anything where she claimed responsibility for it. I really doubt Martin, Lekay, or Yeagley had anything to do with it. What could NAU have on these three guys that hasn't already been exposed and posted all over the internet?

From what was posted on the NAU Forum, their e-mail account was hacked on May 14th.

Why did Granny post that blog on May 16th, trash-talking NAFPS and insinuating that we had something to do with it? Why did she post that members here had threatened Tsisqua and her children? Guess she was just following the instructions given to her in the e-mail she received from someone at NAU. That e-mail was actually worse than what Granny wrote in response. He is the one who stated that Tsisqua was in the hospital and that they had received death threats from members of NAFPS. He also advised Granny to get the word out, post on as many Native sites as possible, let the world know the truth about Al Carroll and NAFPS. Said that they had already informed the police, AIM, NARF, the Mescalero, FBI and the Feds. Doesn't that sound like ravencrow's accusations, threats, and promises when she left NAFPS? Do I think the members of NAU received death threats? I don't know. Do I think someone threatened to kidnap Tsisqua's children and kill them? I don't know. What I do know is that no one on this forum would do that.

Why is Granny's blog still there? She knows these are lies. Why hasn't she deleted it or posted a retraction? Tsisqua knows these are lies. Why hasn't she posted something? Why is Tsisqua letting it stand as though it was the truth?  A couple people have posted that Granny was asked to delete it, not for the lies about NAFPS, but because personal information was posted about Tsisqua. What about the lies? Letting things like this continue makes NAU lose credibility.

[educatedindian]

Now I confused, how did JM, LeK and company get into this.

Martin, Lekay, and Yeagley have repeated quite a bit of lies and libel all over the net, and Granny is in turn spreading the exact same libel far and wide. So far none of the Blackwaters or their supporters have tried to distance themselves from what Granny is doing. So they deservedly have lost any shred of credibility they have left when they support a flake like her repeating what racists like M L and Y say, almost word for word.

The Blackwaters also apparently are content to see libel done against NDN people protecting NDN traditions, and agree with fabricating threats that the intended victim, Tsisqua, says were never made.

While Martin and other Yeagley supporters have made violent threats many times before, I don't know of Martin and company ever having the brains to try to pull off hacking. Martin, after all, was stupid enough to leave his death threats on answering machines and has never been able to fool anyone with all his multiple IDs, including his clumsy impersonation of NDNs.

As for this:

"Said that they had already informed the police, AIM, NARF, the Mescalero, FBI and the Feds."

Well, the cops, feds, and FBI have never contacted me about any of this. If the calls were ever made, they were rightly dismissed as crackpots.

Why they would be dumb enough to bother NARF isn't clear. NARF is busy with court cases. They probably also dismissed them as cranks.

I've contacted the Mescalero rez before about repatriation cases. I doubt any crank calls of theirs makes any difference, just like Lekay's did not. Everyone knows I'm not enrolled and grew up in south Texas.

And as for AIM? Please, we work with AIM people all the time.

I think it was Churchill (Winston, not Ward) who said it's always fun when they take potshots at you and they keep missing. The Blackwaters and Granny haven't harmed anyone but themselves.

[Tsisqua]

Quote from Bls

The original NAU Forum crashed on March 24, 2008. The actual hacking was done by 'professional hackers', for lack of a better term. I don't think it's ever been proven who hired them. There were a lot of accusations that ravencrow had something to do with it; but I don't remember ever seeing anything where she claimed responsibility for it. I really doubt Martin, Lekay, or Yeagley had anything to do with it. What could NAU have on these three guys that hasn't already been exposed and posted all over the internet?

Firstly...you are totally correct...we were initially hacked in March...one of our Forums...and yes a group called GoOns took credit for it...not in any email...phone call etc...but when trying to access the forum...they had left a message in plain view for all to see....to which we followed the link to their site and read the postings....regarding why and who had gone to them to have this done. To accompany this....we then received many emails from various people, with postings from the net, RNS, Yahoo360 etc to prove that indeed Ravencrow, Maggie, Lekay and some others had gotten together (in their own words...showing emails back and forth etc)...claiming NAU was some off branch of NAFPS...of which we are not...or that NAU was run by Beaderman or Al Carrol....which it clearly is not...and decided to shut us down since we were openly posting about RNS, and Lekay on our site and on other forums...forums incidently they were not able to hack and close...they were only able to close one. But...we also lost 20 pages of our main site...but those complaints were made by Ravencrow, and some annoymous names. We also had postings put on our guest book, from Lekay (In his many aka's used should I say), and many others, gloating and taking responsibility....calling me Dr. Al. and being highly abusive. Our staff know this, and certain members...bls with all due respect...how would you know these things? I have nothing to hide...infact it could be said that I give TOO much information....but do you presume that if you did not know of the inside dealings of NAU...then it cant have happened? Are you NAU staff? Or a close personal friend or family member? No. We try not to involve our members in the stupidity of others....thus we deal with it ourselves....we're not babies...we need no support or backup from anyone...we make people aware of what needs to be out there...nothing more...everything else is dealt with within NAU....as it should be. Do I know 100% Lekay was actually involved? No....all I know is from the information we received...and the comments made. Does anyone know anyone via the net? No....not unless they too know that person in 'real' life.

Quote from Bls

From what was posted on the NAU Forum, their e-mail account was hacked on May 14th.

Yes it was, and we created a new account, which was hacked the same day....then we created another account...which was hacked the day later....and so on and so forth....so we went with a different provider...which has proven a lot safer.

Quote from Bls

Why did Granny post that blog on May 16th, trash-talking NAFPS and insinuating that we had something to do with it?

I would suggest you ask Granny, we had it removed from all sites after many days of mails...why it was put up again...I have no idea...that was Granny's choice alone, one only she can answer. I speak for no one but myself.

Quote from Bls

Why did she post that members here had threatened Tsisqua and her children?

When people post threats, personal information taken from our own personal email files...and state "If you do not shut Granny up on NAFPS...." or "You know nothing about Al Carroll...." etc accompanied by the distinctive threats to my children....it certainly appears that someone who read these posts on this forum took it upon themselves to write the threats. And with all due respect...with 651 members here....do you know each one personally? Can you vouch for every single member in saying no one from NAFPS would have done this? No. Have I written anywhere stating...AL Carroll personally threatened me? NO. Or NAFPS Admin? NO. I am a memebr here...can you vouch for me...do you personally know me? No. Many people are members here....you cant vouch for each and every one...no disrespect intended....but this is fact. Does that make NAFPS responsible for these threats? NO. Did they make these threats in the name of NAFPS? Yes. Am I soley responsible for the words of any NAU member? No. Or for their actions or opinions? No. Nor am I responsible for the opinions of NAU Staff....even though this staff member was removed.

Quote from Bls

Guess she was just following the instructions given to her in the e-mail she received from someone at NAU. That e-mail was actually worse than what Granny wrote in response. He is the one who stated that Tsisqua was in the hospital and that they had received death threats from members of NAFPS. He also advised Granny to get the word out, post on as many Native sites as possible, let the world know the truth about Al Carroll and NAFPS.

And HE has since been removed from NAU due to conflicting opinions....he was angry...upset...worried....but so was I once I saw the email he'd sent to Granny and the postings that had been made....to which I did all I could to have them removed by whatever means necessary.

Quote from Bls

Said that they had already informed the police, AIM, NARF, the Mescalero, FBI and the Feds.

I can state for a fact the appropriate authorities have been contacted regarding the threats made, the hacking of our email...etc...as it should be....people here may like to dismiss threats made to little ones....but they are MY little ones...and I dont take it lightly....and with all due respect...why the heck should I?

Quote from Bls

Do I think the members of NAU received death threats? I don't know. Do I think someone threatened to kidnap Tsisqua's children and kill them? I don't know. What I do know is that no one on this forum would do that.

Again with all due respect....651 members here on this forum....do you know each and every single one personally? Face to face? And can vouch for them all? Or even vouch for all the readers of these threads....people who are not even members? Supporters of NAFPS?  Is NAFPS responsible for the opinions of their readers or members? No. Like I have already clearly stated....I do not know WHO made the threats...that is being dealt with by those who can find out....but I am NOT here stating NAFPS threatened my children! All I have done, is present the facts....take that as you may.

Quote from Bls

Why is Granny's blog still there? She knows these are lies. Why hasn't she deleted it or posted a retraction?

You will have to ask Granny herself. I cant speak for anyone but myself.

Quote from Bls

Tsisqua knows these are lies. Why hasn't she posted something? Why is Tsisqua letting it stand as though it was the truth?

With respect....what exactly have I not cleared up here? I have spoken the truth.

Quote from AL

The Blackwaters also apparently are content to see libel done against NDN people protecting NDN traditions, and agree with fabricating threats that the intended victim, Tsisqua, says were never made

Quote from Tsisqua

we then began to receive many threats...all posted on our NAU main site sent to us via the "Ask A Question" section....which shows no senders email address...it was clear whom ever was sending the threats....also had access to our email accounts since they were using the names of my little ones in person...naming their school...and various other personal information....so on and so forth....but I will not deny many of the threats we received were aimed towards either 'me shutting Granny up on NAPFS'....or 'NAU keeping out of it'...I wont repeat the actual words used as the language was highly colorful. This is simply the truth of the matter...Im making no accusations...I hope that is clear....these threats could have come from anyone....this is the net afterall...and there are many 'oddballs' on it. I had no way to discover who had sent these threats...but...the days listings of IP numbers visiting that particular page...and the times the threats were posted etc...have been forwarded to the correct authorities....who are dealing with this...as like I said...some very serious...worrying threats were made.

Frederica...who is FriedBread Mama? I have only ever head that name from Ravencrow in her postings...associating the name with or as Beaderman.

And just to make this crystal clear....I have nothing to do with the Blackwaters...I am here speaking for myself regarding what happened....I am not here supporting anyone...siding with anyone...as its not my way. Questions have been asked...and I am merely replying. I have said all I can on this.

With respect.

Tsissy

[frederica]

It's not Beaderman, never seen it tied to Ravencrow. That was another FriedBread. This is a woman that pops up on other lists badmouthing Al. Her ties were more to LeKay and some woman Nuager selling sweats. It's one of these internet names that don't mean anything. That's why the water is so muddy.

[TRIBALMOONS@yahoo.com]

I've just spent the better part of my day reading through all of this. And for the life of me I cannot understand what is happening and has happened to this forum. All of a sudden RavenCrow comes in here and all hell breaks loose between the members that should be UNITED, instead there is separation and slander and disharmony going on between so many good folks and I for one am tired of Tsissy always being "attacked" by only one person....Mama Porcupine. Whatever your beef is Mama frankly this crap is getting real old and it is NOT the reason I joined this forum. If I wanted the constant drama of the "he said...she said" BS I'd go back to yahoo 360. So as much as it saddens me, I feel this forum has lost sight of it's best intentions and is no longer out to expose the ones that are doing wrong, but instead it's the stress and disharmony amongst it's own that is disheartening. Today will be my last day on this forum, I can no longer sit here and watch and read what's happening, I wish this Forum nothing but success but until Mama Porcupine outs herself for once instead of finding fault with those trying to do good, this Forum is a joke.

Sincerely,

Michele Sixkiller

[Ric_Richardson]

Can you say Cointelpro?

[Moma_porcupine]

Can you say Cointelpro?

Hey Ric we agree on something ! LOL

What sane person would think that hacking someones website and threatening to kill their kids would be less of a danger to their groups reputation than allowing wredgranny to complain that some NAFPS members have a bad attitude ? Unless the perpetrator was completely irrational it seems more likely whoever instigated this hacking was someone wanting to create drama , divisions and discredit NAFPS .

If NAU was hacked the first time, in March and it is sincerely believed someone like L or JM had anything to do with this, when NAU knew it had been hacked the second time , why would anyone assume that the hackers making these threats were truely a part of NAFPS as they claimed?  A couple of the people you claim you know were involved the first time have a long and easily proven track record of lying or twisting things in order to discredit NAFPS. Knowing this , why would anyone just take the hackers word for it ?

Even if NAFPS members weren't happy with what wredgranny was saying, and they believed it was within Tsisqua's power to "shut her up ", wouldn't asking nicely have a lot better chance of a cooperative response?   

And heck, if a NAFPS memeber was wanting to "shut granny up " , and they knew how to hack a website or knew how to hire someone to do this , it would make better sense to directly target the websites where wredgranny is spreading these distorted stories.

Tsisqua , considering this, why do you continue to suggest this hacker was likely to have been a member of NAFPS?

 Reply #25

When people post threats, personal information taken from our own personal email files...and state "If you do not shut Granny up on NAFPS...." or "You know nothing about Al Carroll...." etc accompanied by the distinctive threats to my children....it certainly appears that someone who read these posts on this forum took it upon themselves to write the threats. And with all due respect...with 651 members here....do you know each one personally? Can you vouch for every single member in saying no one from NAFPS would have done this? No. Have I written anywhere stating...AL Carroll personally threatened me? NO. Or NAFPS Admin? NO. I am a memebr here...can you vouch for me...do you personally know me? No. Many people are members here....you cant vouch for each and every one...no disrespect intended....but this is fact. Does that make NAFPS responsible for these threats? NO. Did they make these threats in the name of NAFPS? Yes.

Again with all due respect....651 members here on this forum....do you know each and every single one personally? Face to face? And can vouch for them all? Or even vouch for all the readers of these threads....people who are not even members? Supporters of NAFPS?  Is NAFPS responsible for the opinions of their readers or members? No. Like I have already clearly stated....I do not know WHO made the threats...that is being dealt with by those who can find out....but I am NOT here stating NAFPS threatened my children! All I have done, is present the facts....take that as you may.

Even though you say NAFPS isn't really responsible for what individual memebers do , you must know that people like Martin and Lekay will use a slightly twisted version of this story to discredit NAFPS just the same as they used a slightly twisted version of the  completely false melodrama Robin created to discredit NAFPS.

If you don't know how these people work , more information on people who have tried to undermine the credibility of NAFPS , and their tactics, can be found in this thread;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1234.0

Continuing to tell this story as if a NAFPS memeber is likely to be responsible, seems especially unfair, as when people start doing crazy stuff like this, it's just as likely to be an enemy of NAFPS trying to make NAFPS look bad - or even a member of NAU looking to create drama and divisions. 

Maybe some NAU member was jelous of the time you spend over here, or feels some of the values of NAFPS members conflicts with the direction they want to see NAU go ... and they wanted to creat divisions ... Or maybe someone just likes drama ... and being in the middle of it .... There is many many possibilities that are just as likely as the guess that it was an irrational crazed NAFPS member not liking what your friend wredgranny was saying.

If you and your friends actually do want to support the goals we are working towards here, I hope you will reconsider where you are directing the focus of your accusations. I'm not saying anyone should ever stop themselves from speaking the truth, I'm just suggesting we all need to be careful to consider what this truth is,or may be , and to make sure our words accurately represent this , before speaking and accusing people of things.