Please Do Not Delete

[wolfhawaii]

Originally I posted in here about how my wife and i were ok after having been through some difficult times over someone being listed under research needed; no pertinent replies were received and I did not want personal information to be lying around to be misused. My comments are my own and no one else controls them, EVEN YOU "MOMA PORCUPINE"

[Ari]

Wow... is it so seriously dangerous? I don't understand how can it be that you acting united and giving eachother support unlimited can't bring this gangsters to legal responsibility... There must be the way to restrain them using social authorities or it looks like we living in stone age despotic society where human life has little value.

[Moma_porcupine]

wolfhawaii

I will not conduct a stomp demonstration and as far as i know there is no one else in Hawaii who could do so. It could be extremely harmful if unqualified people tried

. 

What does it take to be "qualified" and how would someone go about verifying if someone was qualified or wasn't?

All I know is what is posted on the CNO webpage....

http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/CulInfo/FAQ/77/Default.aspx

What is the difference between a pow wow and a stomp dance?
Pow wows began in the west with Plains Indians. They were tribal gatherings where people would gather to celebrate and renew family and tribal ties.

Modern pow wows began to gain momentum in the late 1940’s and 1950’s. They evolved from tribal to intertribal celebrations. They are often times held for competition with prizes
being awarded for performance.

The Stomp Dance is a religious, or ceremonial dance which is private to those who practice traditional ceremonies.

[wolfhawaii]

Please delete

[Kevin]

I've never heard of a stomp dance. Here in Ky there is what's called a buck dance, sort of like clogging, doing a jig, done by white hill folk with a fiddle/banjo type of music. The only 'spirits' might be some booze in somebody's car. the only danger is possibly a sprained ankle and I imagine some of the older folks wake up with stiff joints in the morning. Deeper in the hills are the snake handlers who pray using  poisonous snakes, now that is dangerous stuff - I'd be inclinfed to do a stomp dance on a Copperhead or rattler rather than pray with it.

[wolfhawaii]

Pls Delete

[Kevin]

It was intentional, I was hoping you would fess up and tell us what makes a stomp dance so potentially harmful.  You can PM if you want -  mum's the word with ol' Dances With Badgers ( my adopted moniker)  when it comes to secret red road stuff. I once saw a Jola holy man in West Africa scare the hell out of some tourists, that ought to give me enough cross cultural validation for you to do some sharing here, Wolf.

[wolfhawaii]

Please Delete

[Moma_porcupine]

Gee wolfhawaii , whatcha hiding ?

You've deleted information from you're introduction, you've deleted most of your nasty personal attacks you made against me in Tsisqua's introduction ( I have all that saved and could repost if anyone wants proof ) You've deleted your post where you acknowledged making these deletions - and requesting that I make them - and this was something you agreed to post if I would delete my quotes of what YOU said , that you later realized was private information. I see in Tsisqua's introduction that instead of the aknowlegement you initially posted when I agreed to deleted my responses , you've left something rude in it's place. You have also deleted all your posts from this thread and now you are pressuring adm. to delete everyone elses comments to what you said - including comments from the recognized tribal spokes people from the CNO which raise questions about some of your acivities.

It seems there is a bit of a pattern here .

First, here is a reposting of reply #3 that was deleted by wolfhawaii;

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:pFO-CxwkLX4J:www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php%3Faction
%3Dprintpage%3Btopic%3D1801.0+wolfhawaii+%22We+are+OK%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca&ie=UTF-8

Title: Re: We are OK
Post by: wolfhawaii on June 13, 2008,

You would need to be part of a community that practices traditional ceremonies to know what it took to be qualified and to verify who was or wasn't qualified. The specifics are not generally shared outside of those communities. Occasionally limited demonstrations are done for educational purposes outside of the communities. I am a member of one of those communities in Oklahoma, though I obviously currently live in HI. That is all I can appropriately share regarding your question, MP.
 

 So what you are saying is there is no way for people to avoid supporting cultural misappropreiation - except to trust your own alleged expertise ...?

There is a problem with that though. Although I don't know the finer details of what is and isn't considered inappropriate in Cherokee culture , it would seem the official statements defining this made by tribes which have strongly retained their cultural integrity - like the CNO - would have greater authority than someone like wolfhawaii...

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1152.msg6594#msg6594
Re: Adoption and Native America
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2007, 01:33:27 am »
Wolfhawaii   

I also was adopted, and didn't learn that my Indian heritage was Cherokee until I was 29 years old. I was told as i was growing up that I was adopted and had Indian blood, but never felt connected until many years had passed and i began going to traditional Cherokee communities

.

In another thread Vance Hawkins posted an article by a spokes person selected by the Cherokee community which said  ; 

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1640.msg10478#msg10478

Reply #4 on: April 12, 2008

Dr. Allen said --

===================================================

Greetings --

The Cherokee Nation is overwhelmed with those charlatans who fraudulently claim to be shaman, spiritual leaders or descendents of a Cherokee princess.

Such individuals make such claims without ever having lived within the Cherokee communities. They claim to be descended from some nebulous and mysterious ancestor who was from "a reservation in North Carolina" (there is only one) or "a reservation in Oklahoma" (there are none). The ancestor is never just a plain ordinary everyday Cherokee citizen but a "Cherokee Princess," a "Cherokee Shaman," or a "Cherokee Pipe carrier" none of which actually exist or ever have. Those who claim to be "shaman" do not reside within the known boundaries of the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma.

Cherokee medicine people and spiritual leaders are known to the Cherokee people and do not practice medicine for a fee nor sell "shamanic" lessons to anyone. They do not advertise their services through any form of media and certainly not over the internet.

Traditional Cherokee healers and spiritual leaders provide their services to the Cherokee people. A Cherokee medicine person or spiritual leader is fluent in the Cherokee language and would conduct any medical or spiritual practices by using the Cherokee language. Therefore, our medicine people are those who were born of a Cherokee mother and a Cherokee father and would have been reared within a Cherokee community speaking the Cherokee language. Our traditional Cherokee healers and spiritual leaders are humble people and would not present themselves as such nor "hang out a shingle" so to speak.

Cherokee medicine people are acknowledged and recognized by members of the Cherokee community as effective healers and leaders. It is the recognition of the Cherokee people that validates these persons as medicine people and healers not self-proclaimation. We may provide them small gifts, a token amount of money or foodstuffs in payment for their services. They do not charge for their services nor would they withhold their services when asked and they certainly would not prescibe payment by credit card.

Cherokee medicine people may provide services to recognized members of other tribes or may provide services to non-Indians who would seek them out for treatment, but certainly would not mix their spirituality or medicine with that of other nations.

Cherokee medicine and spiritual practices do not include tarot cards, palmistry, psychic readings or sweatlodge ceremonies.

One may assume that anyone claiming to be a Cherokee "shaman, spiritual healer, or pipe-carrier," is equivalent to a modern day medicine show and snake-oil vendor.

You have my permission to print this response as is.
   
   Richard L. Allen. EdD
   Research & Policy Analyst
   Cherokee Nation
   P.O. Box 948
   Tahlequah, Oklahoma 74465
 

But Wolfhawaii just had to undermine the CNO authority to protect their own culture by insisting this is "just an opinion" and wasn't an official statement -

Reply #6 on: April 12, 2008

wolfhawaii

I give respect to Dr. Allen as he works very hard on behalf of the Cherokee Nation; if i recall correctly, when he originally put this statement out, it was phrased as his opinion and was not presented as an official statement of the Cherokee Nation

So I pointed out an official statement on the CNO website

« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2008

Moma_porcupine

There is also this, which from the official CNO website and is a link that was sent to me by the CNO webmaster

http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/CulInfo/FAQ/83/Default.aspx

How do I find a Cherokee Medicine Man?
Although there are many practicing medicine men and women today, they do not advertise, nor do they solicit clients. In addition, they do not charge set fees for their services.

If you are a traditional Cherokee, who believes and lives the Cherokee way, you will be familiar with who these people are, or will know others who will lead you to one. Also, Cherokee acquaintances (aunts, uncles, neighbors) may refer you if they are aware of your need.

We are not at liberty to suggest such an individual

.

And Wolfhawaii brushed that off.

Reply #8 on: April 13, 2008
Wolfhawaii

please note that Cultural information may vary from clan to clan, location to location, family to family, and from differing opinions and experiences. Information provided here are not 'etched in stone'.

Hmmm well maybe this failure to respect the official statements of the CNO is why people like wolfhawaii fail to recognize and avoid supporting people who many would say are exploiters.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1668.0;all
Reply #21
meleika

A couple of years ago, Sam introduced me to Steve Wolf, aka "Wolfhawaii", at the Kauai Pow Wow.  Both Jane and Sam asked that if I knew of any possible jobs and/or places to live for Steve, because he wanted to move here, to please let them know. 

I find it hard to believe someone who doesn't know enough about the official Cherokee position to know there is some problems with supporting Sam Beeler, is "qualified" to decide when it is and is not harmful to conduct a "demonstration" stomp dance cermony.

Wolfhawaii claims connections in the Cherokee communtiy but apparently he hasn't been inerested in supporting the Cherokee community in discouraging cultural appropriation;

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=157.0
Reply #23 on: March 29, 2005,

Wyman Kirk
Cherokee Nation
Phone: 918.456.0671 xt: 2645
wkirk@cherokee.org

The Nuyagi Keetoowah Society, in my opinion, practices cultural appropriation at its worst; it is cultural theft, cultural abuse, and highly offensive to those who had to fight to preserve the traditional religion, traditional medicine, and traditional ways of life.

I have also seen mention of a "Dr" Sam Beeler who is a prominent member of the Sand Hill Band of Cherokee and Lenape (also known as the Sandhill Band of Indians of New Jersey), a group who had crossover members (including Beeler) with the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society. Beeler makes claims that he is a "traditional" Keetoowah, and he was listed at one time as the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society medicine man (or great elder or something of the like). Beeler makes claims to some sort of connection to the Oklahoma Keetoowah Society and the grounds at Stokes Smith near Vian, Oklahoma. This is patently false, and Beeler has no status as a member of any kind to Stokes Ceremonial Grounds (my uncle, Snow Fields, was the Secretary of the Stokes Grounds Keetoowahs until his passing last year, and one of his job duties was to keep the member roles). I can assure you that Sam Beeler was not now, or ever, a member of Stokes Grounds; nor did he ever apply for membership (to obtain membership, you must speak Cherokee fluently, have an unbroken matrilineal line/have a clan, and agree to the basic tenets of the religion). I can also say that he was not now, or ever, a member of the other Keetoowah grounds in Oklahoma

.

(continues ...)

Re: Nuyagi Keetoowah Society of Pomona NY

? Reply #31 on: March 30, 2005
Richard Allan ( officially selected CNO spokesperson)

The so-called Nuyagi Keetoowah Society has no relationship with any of the legitimate Cherokee entities as they suggest. There is no relationship between this group and the Original Keetoowah Society and the Nighthawk Keetoowah Society who exist only within the boundaries of the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma. It would be unthinkable for these spiritual entities to be removed from their original grounds. Anyone associated with the Original Keetoowah Society and the Nighthawk Keetoowah Society would find it unreasonable to consider diluting the Cherokee culture and spiritual essence of their religion by establishing a branch of their society so far away from Cherokee country.

(con...)

So are the official spokes people in the CNO just all uptight about allowing Cherokee descendants to practice their culture, or have things really gone off the rails here ?

http://500nations.com/tribes/Tribes_States.asp

Sand Hill Band of Indians
State Recognized
Dr.Samuel W. Beeler, Principle Chief
Dr.Carroll Medicine Crow Holloway,Chairman

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1668.25

For more information about these people see Reply #28 of the thread linked to above on Jane Ely or the link below

http://www.medicinecrow.com.au/

http://w115.forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=1489&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

Reverend Medicine Crow
Raymond Whritenour

Sun Nov 20, 2005

"Actually, Sam Beeler is fairly tolerant of such people. His reasoning is that there are too few of them around for Indians to be fighting one another. I suppose he has some kind of a point. " (con...)

Ray Whritenour

What I find even more troubling is when people ask reasonable questions of wolfhawaii's friends , they get personally attacked, and what was said gets twisted into that wolfhawaii and friends were wrongly "attacked" by whoever asked these questions...

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1674.50
Reply #51 on: July 22, 2008
wolfhawaii

I usually stick to Cherokee related threads here, and MP tends to post a lot about Cherokee subjects, usually in attack mode.

Hmmm... I thought it was an attack on frauds , twinkies and exploiters... 

I guess Tonya and Francis Billington felt attacked too when got listed as frauds for conducting stomp dance ceremonies at powwows in the UK . Maybe I am just stupid and uninformd but I don't see where this was much different than what Wolfhawaii says he was doing in Hawaii ... And according to Wolfhawaii there is no way anyone from outside a Cherokee community can tell the difference.

Gee maybe Tonya and Francis should come back to NAFPS and give Wolfhawaii a hand defining who is a fraud and who isn't and dismissing what CNO spokes people say as "Just an opinion ".

If people feel attacked, maybe it's time to ask yourself which side of these issues you are on.

I've about had it with people like wolfhawaii posting here trying to displace and diminish the authority of Native leaders who are selected by people actually living in Native communites- and claiming to be concerned about frauds and exploiters. Is this message boards purpose to stand up for the recognized leaders and spokes people in Native communities" or is our purpose here to give a venue for people to redefine what is exploitation in a way that makes sure what they and their friends want to do is OK  ?

Why am I getting attacked by this person for pointing out the evidence someone is not telling the truth about who they are ? Why is this supposedly knowledgeable person defending exploiters?

Early in Tsisqua's introduction wolfhawaii began attacking me for posting the information below about a "valued NAFPS member " - 

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1674.0
Title: Re: Tsisqua
Post by: wolfhawaii on April 11, 2008

i also personally know at least one formerly valued member here who left due to your heavyhandedness. I urge you to think about your approach carefully. A witchhunt mentality is counterproductive to our purpose here.....

I am assuming he is reffering to this  -
 
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1003.0

Traditional Cherokee Healing
Offered by: Joseph Stands With Many
Located in: Baltimore, Maryland

Skill/Service Details: Cherokee healing is for the body, mind, spirit, and environment in which you live.
It includes energy hand & crystal work, prayer, meditation, dream interpretation, herbal remedies, spiritual and emotional guidance, cleansings of houses and land, and more.

Rates: Rates are approximately $50 per hour, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on what is being done.
   

Why should NAFPS members not have to listen to what recognized Cherokee spokespeople have to say about this? Why is bringing this to peoples attention "heavyhanded"?  Wolfhawaii hasn't explained what dog he has in this fight , but he obviously has one and it isn't sticking up for the rights of traditional leaders in culturally strong Native communities to define what is and what isn't cultural abuse.

Why is this type of persons claim to some authority even acceptable ?

Wolfhawaii had been a member of NAFPS for quite a while, and had never criticized me, and cooincidentally, 24 hours after I posted this -

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1668.0;all

Reply #10 on: April 10, 2008

Moma_porcupine

I know about a year ago I did a lot of digging around on things related to the SECCI and Sand Hill Band and Medicine Crow.

I found a lot of questionable stuff on all of them, and especially Medicine Crow

Wolfhawaii came onto Tsisqua's introduction and began attacking me for asking reasonable questions and accusing me of revealing his secrets.  Contrary to his accusations , I didn't even know this information until he revealed this , and no one else did either , but he revealed his own secrets apparently just for the pleasure of being able to accuse me of revealing them . He then began sending me PMs insisting I edit out the quotes of what he said that he decided he wanted removed and some of my responses .

I won't post wolfhawaii's PM  , but I will post part of mine ...

What is edited is only edited to save wolfhawaii from having the private information he blabbed about himself once again mentioned in public. If Wolf feels this edited version misrepresents our communication , I could post the whole thing with screen shots ...
 
your concerns
« Sent to: wolfhawaii on: April 15, 2008,

[ the begining is edited to protect wolfhawaii from a repeat of the private information HE publicly revealed ]

Moma_porcupine

I was sent information by someone else who knew you were involved with Jane and it was suggested I look into it . I did, and posted what I found.

And now I see you edited a lot of your own comments leaving me in a thread , being attacked and responding to comments that aren't even there like I am a nut case.

So yes I am willing to edit out some of my comments but only if you make a post in that thread apologizing for accusing me of something that I did not do, and acknowldge the untrue accusaations were edited from your posts and you have requested me to edit my quotes of these accusations. If you do this and take some responsiblity for this situation i would be happy to cooperate with you .

Wolfhawaii did not apologize to me or take any responsibility for blabbing on himself.

He did post something like this thoughj I think there is an even earlier version than this one that mentioned he edited out his more harsh comments to me ... now I see he even removed the words "harsh" . 

Title: Re: Tsisqua and Moma porcupine
Post by: wolfhawaii on April 15, 2008

Siyo, as can be seen i have gone back through my posts on this thread as well as on the Jane Ely thread and removed some of my comments which i felt were not helpful towards moving forward in harmony. My interjection in this thread was for the purpose of interceding for Tsisqua in what seemed to be an overly spirited interrogation. This created a discussion that distracted us from our purpose here that spilled over to the Ely thread, and therefore i have removed some of the comments that i posted. Not all of us here are on the same team and it does not suit our purpose to feed dissension while frauds and exploiters read all about it and laugh their @#$es off. I am now under attack for my "perceived" role in the discussion regarding Jane Ely by people who live near me and who i occasionally have to interact with. This shows the dangers of discretionary lapses and my wife and i have to deal with that now from people who want to shape truth to fit their outlook. Moma_Porcupine, I appreciate your honesty in sharing your struggles; i too have had mine, from childhood abuse to alcohol issues to wartime traumas....i know how it can shape perception. In my 19 year journey of sobriety and introspection I have learned to hold truth, honor, and integrity as unquestioned necessities. I strive to think right and do right as was taught to me by my traditional elders, and do not wish anyone ill, including those who would falsely accuse me. The truth will prevail, it is said!

Even though Wolfhawaii took no responsibility for the information he revealed and even though he never apologized or acknowledged that he has wrongly accused me of disclosing this, I did my best to take the high ground and be kind and edited out where I quoted him and responded to his accusations in places that refered to the information he disclosed . 

Today I see he has removed this entire post which means he has also removed his part of this agreement and he replaced this with letters suggesting a rude comment. 

 Re: Tsisqua and Moma porcupine
« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2008
Wolfhawaii

WTFIWTS

So much for your end of the bargin eh wolf ... I can't see any reason to do this except as an intentional manouver to make me feel violated -

And now i see wolfhawaii is using my cooperation in editing my posts to outright lie about what was said ;

 Re: Tsisqua
« Reply #61
Wolfhawaii

You have attacked my personal integrity and posted personal information about me that caused me to be physically threatened. About all I have done to you was say you don't seem to be a very nice person. Why is it when someone disagrees with you you must attack them?

 
So , I am seeing this pattern here of wolfhawaii constantly undermining the credibility of recognized Native cultural authorities and anyone who dares to question the activities of his friends .

And now he wants this thread where he admited what he was doing could be harmful if he wasn't qualified , to be deleted . It seems wolfhahwaii isn't even qualified to take responsiblity for his won posts in an internet forum - never mind leading "demonstrations" of traditional ceremonies.

  I can see that it's a good thing for people with different opinions to discuss things , but why is this person being allowed to speak as if he has the authority to say the recognized Cherokee leaders are wrong and he and his friends know better?  Why do people think this is remotely acceptable ?

PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THE VOICES AND AUTHORITY OF TRADITIONAL LEADERS

(edited to fix overlong link )

[wolfhawaii]

There is way too much misinformation in your post above for me to begin to unravel so i will try to keep it simple.......
1. [Insults deleted]
2. I have met many people on my journey,  some good and some not so good; in some cases it has taken some time to sort them out, especially when they falsely claim relation. Having met people and even spending time with them does not imply endorsement.
3. You have gone to great lengths to protect your anonymity; you actually posted my real name and location on Jane Ely's thread over your ire on my comments of your overzealousness in Tsisqua's intro in April. You still aren't over it.
4. I don't know the Billingtons and whatever was going on with them has nothing to do with me.
5. I am not a member of Sandhills, Nuyagi, SECCI, etc. I am an unenrolled Cherokee descendant and a member of a traditional gatiyo (ceremonial grounds) in Oklahoma, with my name in the membership book. I asked the chief of the grounds in July 2006 about the appropriateness of sharing the stomp dance with the Hawaiian powwow community and was given permission to do  limited demonstrations. I posted that i will not continue doing it because I can no longer support the organization that sponsors this powwow; and there are spiritual considerations that you are not entitled to a discussion of. [Childish comment removed]
6. I am not nor could i undermine the CNO's authority of anything, nor do they control everything as you imagine.
7. Where I have deleted information in my posts, it has been with the intention of removing information that could endanger my family; and it is not for you to judge what might endanger my family....you have already proven that you are unable to do that.
8. I have not pressured admin to remove anyone elses comments other than in April when you posted my name on the Ely thread which resulted in being my wife and I being physically threatened and psychically attacked.
9. Your assertion that i revealed my own personal information and then accused you of doing it proves [Insult deleted]. Many others here on the site have seen how you operate here.....you attack, run, then claim to be the victim and accuse your victim of attacking you. [Insults] There's more out there than just cutting and pasting.
I made no contractual agreement with you to leave anything I said to you on the site indefinitely. You twist words into weapons and speaking to you rationally is a waste of time and energy. The rest of your assertions are so garbled and confused they are not worth addressing.
The time spent on this website just dealing with you is a waste so if you persist I hope you figure out how to be real.
10. You quote Meleika....real name Carole Moses, student of Jane Ely and wife to the man who Jane Ely brought to our house to threaten us....isn't that a bit ironic? I never denied knowing any of the people mentioned, in fact i said that i did. This does not imply that i support or endorse them. If you got out of the house more you might realize that.
11. You are obviously confused in many ways, further discussion with you is pointless. If you have a Cherokee person out there who has an issue with me or my activities, send them my way and i will explain myself to them....I'm done with you [Insults].
12. I will discuss this with the mods at their pleasure.

[wolfhawaii]

From the Tsisqua Intro thread, added for emphasis and clarity:


I Love YaBB 2!


     Re: Tsisqua
« Reply #61 on: Today at 10:46:29 am »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There you go again, MP.....I'm trying to help your cause and you attack me again.....and you think that you are trustworthy? You have attacked my personal integrity and posted personal information about me that caused me to be physically threatened. About all I have done to you was say you don't seem to be a very nice person. Why is it when someone disagrees with you you must attack them?
If you are really contemplating investigating me, do what you must . You know who i am.....get your "trusted Cherokee person" to ask the deputy chief of the UKB, or the chief of Echota and /or Redbird, or the head of Cherokee Studies at NSU about who I am and what kind of person I am. Regarding your comment about my supporting exploiters: I have met a great many people in my journey, some good, some not so good. Sometimes it takes a while to really find out about people, especially if they use false claims of relation and use that to worm their way in. I have gained insight from these experiences over time. If you use this rationale as a means to declare me untrustworthy then by your own words you are untrustworthy as well. I have never profitted from ndn culture, or encouraged anyone to take a path other than traditional culture.
EDITED TO ADD: In answer to your question of what dog I have in the fight.....FAIRNESS and BALANCE.
 
 
« Last Edit: Today at 11:17:39 am by wolfhawaii »  Report to moderator    75.85.135.249 
 

[Moma_porcupine]

There is way too much misinformation in your post above for me to begin to unravel so i will try to keep it simple.......
1. [Insults deleted]
2. I have met many people on my journey,  some good and some not so good; in some cases it has taken some time to sort them out, especially when they falsely claim relation. Having met people and even spending time with them does not imply endorsement.
3. You have gone to great lengths to protect your anonymity; you actually posted my real name and location on Jane Ely's thread over your ire on my comments of your overzealousness in Tsisqua's intro in April. You still aren't over it.
4. I don't know the Billingtons and whatever was going on with them has nothing to do with me.
5. I am not a member of Sandhills, Nuyagi, SECCI, etc. I am an unenrolled Cherokee descendant and a member of a traditional gatiyo (ceremonial grounds) in Oklahoma, with my name in the membership book. I asked the chief of the grounds in July 2006 about the appropriateness of sharing the stomp dance with the Hawaiian powwow community and was given permission to do  limited demonstrations. I posted that i will not continue doing it because I can no longer support the organization that sponsors this powwow; and there are spiritual considerations that you are not entitled to a discussion of. [Insults deleted]
6. I am not nor could i undermine the CNO's authority of anything, nor do they control everything as you imagine.
7. Where I have deleted information in my posts, it has been with the intention of removing information that could endanger my family; and it is not for you to judge what might endanger my family....you have already proven that you are unable to do that.
8. I have not pressured admin to remove anyone elses comments other than in April when you posted my name on the Ely thread which resulted in being my wife and I being physically threatened and psychically attacked.
9. Your assertion that i revealed my own personal information and then accused you of doing it [Insults deleted]. Many others here on the site have seen how you operate here.....you attack, run, then claim to be the victim and accuse your victim of attacking you.  [Insults deleted] There's more out there than just cutting and pasting.
I made no contractual agreement with you to leave anything I said to you on the site indefinitely. You twist words into weapons and speaking to you rationally is a waste of time and energy. The rest of your assertions are so garbled and confused they are not worth addressing.
The time spent on this website just dealing with you is a waste so if you persist I hope you figure out how to be real.
10. You quote Meleika....real name Carole Moses, student of Jane Ely and wife to the man who Jane Ely brought to our house to threaten us....isn't that a bit ironic? I never denied knowing any of the people mentioned, in fact i said that i did. This does not imply that i support or endorse them. If you got out of the house more you might realize that.
11. You are obviously confused in many ways, further discussion with you is pointless. If you have a Cherokee person out there who has an issue with me or my activities, send them my way and i will explain myself to them....I'm done with you, [Insults deleted]
12. I will discuss this with the mods at their pleasure.

Still lying I see.

Your real name was posted online in various online news articles and advertisements.
In my post I never said the person was you, and I wasn't even sure if it was.

Read my post. I've never edited it . Everything else that was said, was said by you or in response to you.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1668.0

Reply #15

Everyone in your community knows you were involved with the powwow there and that you were listed as doing a stomp dance with Jane Ely . It is / was publicly advertised. All I posted was public advertisements .

Anyone [Insults deleted] who had any interest in this who read the thread would figure out that wolfhawaii who posts here , who lives in Hawaii , who posted in the Jane Ely thread mentioning Jane Ely as their "sister" is you.

There is just no way me posting quotes from the Kaui powwow webpage and a gohawaii article could have endangered you in any way. You are still making stuff up to attack me.

I had nothing to do with revealing anything that wasn't already obvious to anyone who knows you or Jane Ely and I have absolutely no responsibility for any threats that may have been made to you.

That you continue to accuse me of this just shows how completely dishonest and manipulative you are .

People can read the thread themselves and see what I posted.

It's no different than the information that gets posted in NAFPS all the time .

[Insults deleted]

[educatedindian]

I asked WH to PM me. Before there had been some genuine concerns that Ely's followers were a threat to or could cause serious problems for his loved ones. If that had been the case here I would've seriously considered deleting all or parts of the thread. But no such dangers were mentioned, so the thread stays as is.

The two of you both need to knock off the insults. They have been removed, and they make you both look juvenile.

And the personal part of the dispute needs to stay in private emails. Stick to things relevant to the topic.

[Moma_porcupine]

Hmmm

I've never had a post edited before ... but Ok Al, you are right, adding an adjuctive to wolfhawaii's name to fit my perception of his behavior was unnecesaary and inflamatory and I apologize to everyone for that.

I'm not sure if using slightly derogatory language to express the concept of "substantially less than average intellegence" - especilly as it wasn't directed at anyone on this message board - is insulting but whatever. I think fairness is important and if one person can't be rude neither can the other person , and I suppose I crossed the line and I was .

I guess in broad terms I am mainly concened about people who make comments diminishing the authority of the people tribes have selected to speak for them . 

If the purpose of this message board is to teach people respect for these traditional leaders right to say " NO, that is not OK" it seems it undermines our whole purpose when someone represents themself as authoritative and they say" Oh that is just their opinion".

I guess I am also having a problem with people who get in the way of people asking questions- and divert attention from people bringing attention to questionable things , by making pesonal attacks and accusing the people who ask these questions of being "attackers" - 

I feel I have probably done all I can to bring attention to some issues without making a nuicence of myself and I will probably be leaving some things for other people to deal with - or not .

Again I apologize for contaminating the discussion with my own frustration and not being more careful of how I expressed this.

At least I got my insulting words deleted in a thread now named Please delete or Please don't delete  ... LOL

[wolfhawaii]

Like anyone else, I do not appreciate my integrity being blatantly challenged by an anonymous source of questionable veracity. As a decorated combat veteran and former Army officer, gourd dancer, traditional singer, and grandparent, my integrity is very important to me and others close to me. I apologize for any uncalled for remarks. I have said all I will say on this unless further challenges develop.