What makes an NDN an NDN?

[redhawk45]

Apparently there is a bit of confusion as to fractions here.  the last 1/2 breed (as some may call him) was in my great grandfather, due to a half-breed and a full NDN marrying and having a child, which would still be 1/2, since there is no 3/4ths in blood quantum.  Fractions shown are of Native ancestry.

Maybe this will help:  1/16th, 1/8th,    1/4th,           1/2,                1/2 + 1 full
                                  me,    mom,    grandfather,  grt grandfather, grt gfather + grt gmother 

      Cont.:  Great Grandfather's side - father was 1/16, mother 1 full

The last full blood is only 4 generations back, the last 1/2 blood 3 generations back.

So, pretty much, I don't fall short as you clearly say I do, saying 15/16, which pretty much would only give me 1/32 or possibly 1/64, only 1%, when I have more than that.  Not even I understand how tribes can take in people of 1/32, when to me the stop point is 1/16th, and after that it's washed out.

My mother and I will always be members of the Alleghenny Lenape, for they are still around.  Sammy was NDN, yet was also a crook (not all NDN's are nice and friendly and honest).

A Federally Recognized tribe might be good to get information from for politics and culture, I know many Federally Recognized tribes would push away someone who can prove the geneology due to the idiotic rolls set up by the BIA, because our ancestors never went out to live on a rez.  You cannot say that my ancestors were less honorable because they decided to inter-marry and stay on their homeland.  True, I feel for those people who went westward, of what they endured, but it doesn't give no Federally Recognized NDN any right to dictate who is and who isn't just from 'ancient' rolls.  Even today, those rolls are added to, but the problem is the old rolls needs to just be a reference, not demand that an ancestor has to be on it.

I agree with you on the one part that we must ensure that cultures are saved, and that we should learn from those on the rez., for the cultures are more preserved than the Alleghenny Lenape.  I am only one person to learn the Lenape language, but I at least can start bringing that back into context.

Thank you for your links, though, and some advice.

Eric

Redhawk
There has already been lots of discussions on this so I am just posting some links to what has already been written  ...

The thread on Ward Churchill starting reply # 19

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1632.0;all

People Of Distant Indian Ancestry
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1111.0

questionable ndn idenities & tribes
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=846.0
 
DNA tests 4 Ndn ancestry & some statistics

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1375.0

There's also this article from the CNO ... Although this is about Cherokee
tribes the issues are probably similar for similar groups in simillar circumstances .

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1011.0
 
I really disagree with the attitude of entitlement expressed below.

Re: What makes an NDN an NDN?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2008,
Redhawk

I totally agree with you, but not being recognized even by Federal you have no access to no funds for helping to buy a home, helping me with college, nor can I even 'own' any bird of prey feathers and wear them proudly like any other NDN at powwows and gatherings - if ya do, you'll get busted by a ranger and be in jail.

If you are 15/16 of colonial descent why would you imagine you can just ignore the debts of the vast majority of you ancestors who arrived as colonists ? How is it that the debts of 15 out of 16 of your ancestors are outwieghed by what one of your 16 ancestors might be owed?

IMO if your small bit of Native blood entitles you to anything, all it would be is a bit of sensitivity which would motivate you stick up for the recognition and rights of existing communities of Native people.   

From what you have said about yourself you are not " a community of Native people " . If you are anything you would be a distant descendant who's Mom had an interest in learning about a small part of her heritage. And your Mom didn't even know enough to avoid getting involved with a mostly non native exploiter.

As Superdog says, you sound like you have a lot to learn and the only place you can learn this is in a Native community that had enough members to survive and maintain the culture.  While I agree recognition which comes from any group of mostly non native people - such as the federal government - is not a good point of reference  , federally recognized tribes are a good refference point , because they were strong enough in numbers to remain viable and retain their culture.   

In reply # 8 in the link below is an explaination why I think Native traditions need to be retained within th ontext provided by a strong and viable Native community.( see Reply #8 )

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=998.0

Nighthawk...

I want to say that I really appreciate what you contribute here. I find you intellegent, a good researcher, and even when people disagree with you , I have never seen you resort to personal attacks, which is something I really respect .

However , I think we probably disagree on how to define who is Ndn and who isn't. Hopefully this might be an opprotunity to explore our different values and assumptions and I really hope you won't be offended by what I am going to say.. .

I am noticing you mention your partner Simons descent from the Cote family quite often and that you believe this family and the family of his wife Ann Martin were Native .


http://www.reclamationinfo.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=168&start=10
Nighthawk

All people with that name in North America who've been here longer than a couple of centuries are related, and all are descendant of one Indigenous person named Jehan/Jean Cote' dit Coste'. If the date of his birth (1604) is correctly given within about a decade, he would be Mi'kmaq and probably from Anticosti Island (kidnapped or a survivor of the "clearance" of the Island which is known as Natigostec to the Mi'kmaq). His wife was Anne Martin/Matchonon, known to be Huron. Those two are the ancestors of pretty much all the Cote'/Cota/Coty/Cody.

Anyway there are about 50,000 to 100,000 of his living descendants on Turtle Island

http://www.reclamationinfo.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61

Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008   Re: "Dit" Names - FN family, the Conspiracy against My People     

SimonRaven

as one of those people, one of my ancestors was one of those kidnapped children,

some of the traditions may have disappeared in some cases, but not all of them. some were indeed kept underground, and will be kept underground, until the genocide stops

Posted: Mon Jun 16,  Re: "Dit" Names - FN family, the Conspiracy against My People     
Nighthawk

More than one... people have all heard of the "Plains of Abraham", right?

Well the full name of the person that plain is named for is "Abraham Martin" in french.

According to the Jesuit Relations, the name Martin replaced the Huron name Matchonon: "On the 3rd of November of the same year [1635-36?], Father Charles l'Allemant baptized a young Savage about twenty-five years old, called by the people of his nation Matchonon, surnamed by the French, Martin; at baptism he received the name of Joseph." (Reference, the Jesuit Relations)

Simon is a descendant of Anne Martin/Matchonon who was the sister of Abraham, and Huron-Wyandot.

So ... I am seeing the Cote and Martin families repeatedly brought up as being Simon's Native lines and I have not seen any other Native ancestors mentioned. I also see Simon say's he's descended from ONE of these children he believes were taken and educated by missionaries and you say there was 2 of these children. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but I get the impression from these various comments, that it is on the basis of one or two ancestors who lived back in the 1600's that your partner Simon claims to be Mi'kmaq .   Is this correct?

When your partner Simon Raven says he is Mi'kmaq , is he saying this based only on his descent from Jean Cote, or does he also have some much more recent Mi'kmaq descent?

I guess I also have to say that in my only partially informed opinion , I think the genealogical information you have provided on these families is probaby incorrect .

I believe the links below give much more accurate information on the origins of this family;

http://www.geocities.com/weallcamefromsomewhere/the_french.html

http://www.geocities.com/weallcamefromsomewhere/quebec_realfirst.html

http://www.geocities.com/weallcamefromsomewhere/Kebec/anne_martin.html

I understand some of the conclusions in the links above are just guesses based on the available evidence, and what you are claiming is possible -

Doing accurate research on a family from that long ago is a huge undertaking and I don't think this is the place to get into debating this particular genealogy , except to say there is some different opinions on what the existing records might mean, and you own opinion  seems to be quite different than the opinion of most mainstream genealogists ... It's certainly possible you are guessing right about this family being Mi'kmaq and Huron, and pretty much everyone else is guessing wrong that it is French , but I have to say some key points of what you are guessing about this family is based on evidence that doesn't appear to actually exist.

But if all that is being claimed is one or two native ancestors who lived back in the 1600's , assuming a substantial part of Simon's family has been in Quebec since 1621, like anyone who's family lived on this continent close to 400 years, he probably has a small percentage of Native descent from very distant indigenous ancestors.

In the link below is the mtDNA results of people with French Canadian ancestry ;

http://www.frenchdna.org/FCmtDNAResults.htm
   
As you can see about one in 20 of the people who paid to get tested has an indigenous mtDNA.

How i would intepret this is that AT MOST the average French Canadian is about 1/20 of Native descent.

It is probably substantially less than that though, as i suspect the people who pay to get tested are more often people who were adopted or who have some reason to think they are of Native descent . So probably people who pay to get an mtDNA test are more likely to have a native background than the averge person in the general population .

But even if the true general percentage of indigenous mtDNA in the average French Canadian population was much less - like only one in 100 - if you count back to the 1600's most people have about 4000 ancestors , so even if it was on average only one in 500 that would still work out be that an average person with only one parent who was French Canadian would have about 4 Native ancestors way way back there.

So debating complex historical and genealogical facts and whether or not Jean Cote was Mi'kmaq isn't really necesary to guess that Simon, like most French Canadians, almost certainly has at least one or two distant Native ancstors back there somewhere .

Which leads to the next question ;

Do you really believe that someone who descends from one or two Native ancestors who lived 300- 400 years ago or even 200 years ago is a Native person and should have the right to claim and control resources which belong to federally recognized Native communities?

Which leads to the next question.

Are you then saying that all French Canadians should be recognized as Ndn peoples? 

And

If you don't believe this, at what point would you decide a person was too distantly descended to be considered an Ndn?

[earthw7]

apparently there is a bit of confusion as to fractions here.  the last 1/2 breed (as some may call him) was in my great grandfather, due to a half-breed and a full NDN marrying and having a child, which would still be 1/2, since there is no 3/4ths in blood quantum.  Fractions shown are of Native ancestry.

Maybe this will help:  1/16th, 1/8th,    1/4th,           1/2,                1/2 + 1 full
                                  me,    mom,    grandfather,  grt grandfather, grt gfather + grt gmother 

      Cont.:  Great Grandfather's side - father was 1/16, mother 1 full

The last full blood is only 4 generations back, the last 1/2 blood 3 generations back.

So, pretty much, I don't fall short as you clearly say I do, saying 15/16, which pretty much would only give me 1/32 or possibly 1/64, only 1%, when I have more than that.  Not even I understand how tribes can take in people of 1/32, when to me the stop point is 1/16th, and after that it's washed out.

My mother and I will always be members of the Alleghenny Lenape, for they are still around.  Sammy was NDN, yet was also a crook (not all NDN's are nice and friendly and honest).

A Federally Recognized tribe might be good to get information from for politics and culture, I know many Federally Recognized tribes would push away someone who can prove the geneology due to the idiotic rolls set up by the BIA, because our ancestors never went out to live on a rez.  You cannot say that my ancestors were less honorable because they decided to inter-marry and stay on their homeland.  True, I feel for those people who went westward, of what they endured, but it doesn't give no Federally Recognized NDN any right to dictate who is and who isn't just from 'ancient' rolls.  Even today, those rolls are added to, but the problem is the old rolls needs to just be a reference, not demand that an ancestor has to be on it.

I agree with you on the one part that we must ensure that cultures are saved, and that we should learn from those on the rez., for the cultures are more preserved than the Alleghenny Lenape.  I am only one person to learn the Lenape language, but I at least can start bringing that back into context.

Thank you for your links, though, and some advice.

Eric

Eric i find many of your statement offensive and that you have very little knowledge of tribal people.  We decide who belong to our nation. You have to be born on the reservation or one of your parents and grandparents. We never moved westward but stayed on our homelands. The problem come when people who live in the white culture for so long forget how to act and are rude and offensive to Native People.

I am a federally enrolled member of my tribe, my tribe has my enrollment down as 7/8 but due to our enrollment changing to include all Lakota, Dakota and Nakota blood I can now claim my 1/8 Oglala blood.
I truly believe in order to belong to a tribal nation you must be known by them, you must know your relatives, you must be a part of the nation. I was born here on the reservation where I live today. I was born into my nation because my parent, grandparents, great grandparents ect.. were all from my nation. It has nothing to do with rolls because we all know our families going back nine generations and further. It is about family.

When a tribal person meet you we all ask who are you related to what clan/band/or family do you come from, because it is the way to establish a relationship with each other.

So if you came to my home we would ask you your family name, your grandparents name and great grandparents name. Indian country is small so it is easy for us to find out about each other.

I never heard of state recognized until i got on line. I do know about the unrecoginzed tribes but they know who they are just ask and they can tell you who they are along with the families they are related too.

As we say we were Native when it was uncool to be Native today we are still native fighting for our rights to live.
check out some of the fraud people on this site they all claim to be adopted or from some fake tribe they abuse our belief, mix them up or just plains make them up.

what is with this statement???
I am only one person to learn the Lenape language, but I at least can start bringing that back into context.

I have now seen nine different people make that claim that they are the only ones! Don't that tribe talk to each other???

[earthw7]

What makes an Native an Native

It is simple! Their people and their land

[Moma_porcupine]

(me)

We do disagree on how to define who is an NDn - and I strongly disagree, but I feel it's best if we  stay with the issue .

nighthawk Quote
I can only surmise from what you falsely ascribe to me what your position is.

So I will take a guess, you endorse the colonial government's ability to decide who is and who isn't, 

I have no idea where you got that idea. I have repeatedly stated I DON'T  endorse non native people defining who is Native.

Where we seem to be getting stuck is this;

If people with some distant Native descent who are mostly non native get together and decide they are Native and most the people in the federally recognized communities who have strongly retained their idenities say they are not Native and they see them as non native people with only a bit of distant heritage , who gets to decide how to define this. The federally recognized Native people who have strongly maintained their culture and heritage , or the people who are mostly non native?

How would you answer this?

Because if you answer one way First Nations retain their soverienty and if you answer another way people who are mostly non native get used as tools to remove this soverinty.

Nighthawk

I am not sure where you got the impression I actually agree with the government on their position that self-declaration, some fake or "creative" genealogy and a rewriting of history, and no real aboriginal blood/ancestry or culture makes an Indian, but I don't agree with it and never have.

It may be I misunderstood you, but it also may be you aren't aware of how you come across, and this might be something you want to consider.

I guess what gave me this impression was that you have written many posts in topics such as Ward Churchill ( who  probably had no ancestry but claimed a full identity as a native person based on a very distant ancestor), and the then in the thin blood theard , and all these posts talk about non status ndns and how these people still have a native identitiy which has no been recognized and which the government has worked to obscure. ( i'm sorry i don't have time right now to look up and find exact quotes - this is just the impression I got reading your posts )

I also saw where you repeatedly mentioned Simons very distant Cote ancestors , and your concern has seemed to be that they were being made into the wrong tribe. Not once do i recall you saying your concern was that the government was recognizing such distant descedants as Native peoples.

The article on Dit names that you posted also gives the impression you agree with the slant of the article, which if it was correct would meant most people in Quebec were at least 1/2 of Native descent. However unless there is some impossibly massive conspiracy to cover this up and change Y DNA results, it can be easily proven that almost all the men with Dit names have Y DNA that originated in Europe .  Which means the "conspiracy against my people" mentioned in the article is nothing more than a non native or mostly non native person imagining they have a surpress indegenosous identity they don't have.

The fact you are publishing stuff like that does give the impression you support people who may be PODIAs imagining they are surpressed indigenous people .

I did see you do not agree with CAP , but I have often noticed people come here and sound very opposed to some group of PODIAs calling themself a tribe , and then a while later they start sticking up for another group of PODIAs calling themself a tribe, and it becomes apparent that it is really just two groups of PODIAs calling themselves a tribe who have had a falling out, and not tht anyone was actually thinking it was wrong for PODIAS to act like this.

So I have been a bit puzzled about where you stood on this. It wasn't clear if you just didn't like CAP , or if you also don't like PODIAS claiming an indigenous identity when this is not suported by the federally recognized tribes or the majority of traditional leaders / Elders who live in federlly recoginized tribe.

And I say majority because if you shop around there wil always be someone who will agree to anything.

And I'm still not entirely clear on where your loyalties lie ... 

Nighthawk

"Canada" is in a state of flux for a number of reasons, lengthy to detail. I doubt many are interested anyway on this list. I can barely keep up with my study on "Canada". But I really don't like the idea that a Euro-Canadian settler with friends in the government can wake up one morning, decide they had an NDN grandmother, and declare themselves to be of whatever Nation, and then gather together with their probably wealthy Euro-Canadian settler neighbours in Ontario "cottage country" and call themselves a First Nation and on top of that get government funding, while real Indigeneous people don't have clean drinking water, live in mouldy houses, and have no access to decent health care, and if they protest these things peacefully have guns pointed at the heads of their women and children. I don't like Indigenous grandmothers being brutalised when they try to visit their children and grandchildren. It sickens and disgusts me.

Yes we agree on that.

[E.P. Grondine]

This is all not for me to decide, but the questions are there, and I would like to share just a few thoughts about thin bloods from a first hand perspective.

In the struggle ahead, the peoples are going to need as broad and unified a base of political support as possible.

In the east, there is constant tensions between those who went west voluntarily, those who were forced west, and those who hid out or "passed". Then there are also tensions between those in Canada, those in the US. My opinion, these bad feelings are not good, and reduce the peoples' strength.

Thinbloods? In the east, aside from the inadeqaucies which some feel with some of forms of European religions which have been presented to them, others deal with more severe consequences from Native Ancestry - among those are psychological, health, and financial. These go from generation to generation. Me, I picked up enough blood for diabetes and stroke, but not enough for the casino. My mother's shame at her ancestry has had psychological consequences for her children.

So the descendants try to fill the holes, and then there's always con-men and con-women or confused individuals who will either exploit them or share their confusion.  There's got to be what, about 500-700 of these people operating in this industry now here in the US? And how many more in Canada?

As intermarriage occurs what has happened in the east will happen in the west as well, unless measures are taken now to assure that they do not. My suggestion would be for recognized nations to set up what legally would be known as affiliated and/or civic organizations recognized by them, so that there is a mechanism to see that these problems are dealt with, tradition and language are preserved, pride is held, and political strength preserved.

As I said up front, these are clearly not my decisions to make, but just some thoughts from experience. There's going to be a lot of work ahead, and good luck with it.

[redhawk45]

I'm sorry you feel that I offended you, but I do have some animosity towards Federally Recognized tribes who use those rolls.  MY ancestors never made it west to get recognized on them rolls the BIA set up, and just as you pointed out, you never knew there were even State Recognized tribes out there until you got a computer and internet.  I think it offensive when these Federally Recognized tribes push their brother's and sisters away who HAVE done their geneology and DNA (which matches up perfectly) yet these individuals aren't on these rolls, because those who decided to inter-marry made that decision to stay on their tribe's homeland.  If you had two choices, either to stay and inter-marry and stay on your ancestors homeland, or go off to no where and possibly die, which would you take?

I know how it is, even before we had done the DNA test.  My mother and I tried to apply to some Federally Recognized tribes, yet we were pushed away like scum.  I know how the minds of many Fed. Tribes think, in the offices and out.

And you made a contradiction yourself.  You say your tribe decides who belongs to your nation...yet you say you have to be born on the rez or have been on the rolls of that tribe.  I even was told by a Winnebago Elder that some Sioux people adopt - when I called a few bands, they didn't.

Congrats you were born on a rez, that you were raised in your culture and religion, but it appears to me that many who live on a rez has no sympathy for anyone who were scattered in the past, and those individuals just found out the hard way of who they are.  Us back east cannot help that our culture is scattered and much of it is lost.  When I mentioned that I'm the only one in the Alleghenny Lenape to speak Lenape, it was made in a broad aspect.  There could be a few out there teaching themselves like I am, but I don't know.  That's what happens when members are not grouped onto just one land, you don't get to know every single member. 

My animosity towards Federally Recognized tribes grows for many are even more rude to those who knows their geneology, is WILLING to be a part of a tribe to help out, but these people who live on rez's are narrow-minded in my view for they DON'T want to unite, they DON'T want to have their tribe grow.  I'll always have animosity when Federally Recognized tribes think they are superior to any one else.  Sure, even I hate wannabes, but a person isn't a wannabe when they know who they are descended from, and are willing to learn and become a part of a community.

Being NDN isn't glamourous, I know that.  It's a poor life - but it can't be any worse than what my mother and I have already been through.  We would give up what we have now for even a poorer situation just to reunite my family back with the tribe they belong to, to get to learn what was lost within my family.

No, Federally Recognized tribes needs to drop the old rolls from the rules of membership.  They can demand a full geneology and DNA, which would have to match perfectly.  They can still do blood quantum if they want.  Just keep the old rolls as a documentation for those who are doing their geneology, not make it madatory that their ancestor HAS to be on it.

I swear, Alaskan Natives are more lenient than people on Rez's.  Did you know that you can be adopted in a Alaskan tribe, as long as you have Native American blood and live in their village and they'd adopt you?  It's not because they're desperate, it's because they believe that we're all related in some way or form.  But my mother isn't willing to pack up and go up to Alaska, too cold as she told me.

The only thing that is needed is for the Federally Recognized tribes to stop turning away those who knows their family (geneology), even if they're not on a roll.  As my mother says, it's the ONLY way to unite in some way or form, so the culture CAN live on.

Eric

apparently there is a bit of confusion as to fractions here.  the last 1/2 breed (as some may call him) was in my great grandfather, due to a half-breed and a full NDN marrying and having a child, which would still be 1/2, since there is no 3/4ths in blood quantum.  Fractions shown are of Native ancestry.

Maybe this will help:  1/16th, 1/8th,    1/4th,           1/2,                1/2 + 1 full
                                  me,    mom,    grandfather,  grt grandfather, grt gfather + grt gmother 

      Cont.:  Great Grandfather's side - father was 1/16, mother 1 full

The last full blood is only 4 generations back, the last 1/2 blood 3 generations back.

So, pretty much, I don't fall short as you clearly say I do, saying 15/16, which pretty much would only give me 1/32 or possibly 1/64, only 1%, when I have more than that.  Not even I understand how tribes can take in people of 1/32, when to me the stop point is 1/16th, and after that it's washed out.

My mother and I will always be members of the Alleghenny Lenape, for they are still around.  Sammy was NDN, yet was also a crook (not all NDN's are nice and friendly and honest).

A Federally Recognized tribe might be good to get information from for politics and culture, I know many Federally Recognized tribes would push away someone who can prove the geneology due to the idiotic rolls set up by the BIA, because our ancestors never went out to live on a rez.  You cannot say that my ancestors were less honorable because they decided to inter-marry and stay on their homeland.  True, I feel for those people who went westward, of what they endured, but it doesn't give no Federally Recognized NDN any right to dictate who is and who isn't just from 'ancient' rolls.  Even today, those rolls are added to, but the problem is the old rolls needs to just be a reference, not demand that an ancestor has to be on it.

I agree with you on the one part that we must ensure that cultures are saved, and that we should learn from those on the rez., for the cultures are more preserved than the Alleghenny Lenape.  I am only one person to learn the Lenape language, but I at least can start bringing that back into context.

Thank you for your links, though, and some advice.

Eric

Eric i find many of your statement offensive and that you have very little knowledge of tribal people.  We decide who belong to our nation. You have to be born on the reservation or one of your parents and grandparents. We never moved westward but stayed on our homelands. The problem come when people who live in the white culture for so long forget how to act and are rude and offensive to Native People.

I am a federally enrolled member of my tribe, my tribe has my enrollment down as 7/8 but due to our enrollment changing to include all Lakota, Dakota and Nakota blood I can now claim my 1/8 Oglala blood.
I truly believe in order to belong to a tribal nation you must be known by them, you must know your relatives, you must be a part of the nation. I was born here on the reservation where I live today. I was born into my nation because my parent, grandparents, great grandparents ect.. were all from my nation. It has nothing to do with rolls because we all know our families going back nine generations and further. It is about family.

When a tribal person meet you we all ask who are you related to what clan/band/or family do you come from, because it is the way to establish a relationship with each other.

So if you came to my home we would ask you your family name, your grandparents name and great grandparents name. Indian country is small so it is easy for us to find out about each other.

I never heard of state recognized until i got on line. I do know about the unrecoginzed tribes but they know who they are just ask and they can tell you who they are along with the families they are related too.

As we say we were Native when it was uncool to be Native today we are still native fighting for our rights to live.
check out some of the fraud people on this site they all claim to be adopted or from some fake tribe they abuse our belief, mix them up or just plains make them up.

what is with this statement???
I am only one person to learn the Lenape language, but I at least can start bringing that back into context.

I have now seen nine different people make that claim that they are the only ones! Don't that tribe talk to each other???

[frederica]

Eric, I think you are missing the entire point.  First, a Nation has the right to choose how it enrolls it members. Some use BQ, some do not. most all use the Final Rolls. Second, adoption when it occurs is to a family. Your obligation then is to that family. Rarely, do the Nations adopt, but it has occurred.  So in general, being adopted does not necessarily make you a member of that Nation. Recuriting members off the Internet doesn't make a "Tribe".   States that have a recognition process usually date it to the 1700's. Some because of Removal date it to the late 1800 or even 1900.  It takes generations living in the same community with a ongoing political and cultural structure to constitute a "Tribe".  There are many now that meet the requirements but do not have recognition, as it takes 20 or 30 years to even get recognized.  Plus, they are all the SAME heritage, not a mixture of several different heritages.  I cannot find that Ohio has any criteria for State Recognition. They have a Resolution that means little more than being Ceremonial. There are already many fake Lenape',  Shawnee,  Cherokee groups out there.  Al gave you some advice,  why don't you follow that?

[redhawk45]

First, thank you for that bit of information.  I will admit that I shouldn't judge all Federally Recognized tribes just because of a few bad times I had with them, and you pointed that out clearly.

But most NDN's today are of mixed blood, including on the rez's.  So, what makes those people so important and not my mother and I?  Because they married into the tribe?  Because they were on the rolls?  I still say that those tribes shouldn't go by Final Rolls as a part of membership, but as a reference for geneology.  It's still a slap to those who actually did their geneology, tracing it to a certain tribe, and those people not being able to get in.  I could see it in my head that some 1/8th guy who is federally recognized who might be doing membership laughing at someone of equal BQ and tossing those papers away because his/her ancestors aren't on the Final Rolls.  It's rules like that that frustrates and eventually forces those east here to go with some unrecognized tribe or State Recognized tribe.  Those who have no tribe (community) in their area are even more forced to form one of their own.  That's where people like on here wants to put down this tribe and that tribe, saying they're fake and fraud, when in truth that tribe/community was formed due to being forced together for a common goal.

BTW...who's AL?  I only know people by their SN on here.

But, as I pretty much said, but will clarify, you cannot say these federally recognized people on the rez are of the same heritage, for they're mixed.  If they were of the same heritage, then they all would be full blooded and nothing else (or inbred).  On top of that, you have those of OTHER tribal blood being adopted by a nation and/or family, in the past to now.  So, technically, they are NOT of the same heritage.

For example, my mother and I were adopted into the Alleghenny Lenape 5 years ago, not because of any Lenape we would have in us (because we have no Lenape), but because of our Shawnee ancestry, for the Lenape are the Grandfather tribe to the Shawnee.  That makes us Lenape by adoption, though Caucasian/Athabaskan/Shawnee/Cree by blood.  I also know that when you ARE adopted by a tribe, you must drop any affiliation with any other tribe/nation.

Eric

Eric, I think you are missing the entire point.  First, a Nation has the right to choose how it enrolls it members. Some use BQ, some do not. most all use the Final Rolls. Second, adoption when it occurs is to a family. Your obligation then is to that family. Rarely, do the Nations adopt, but it has occurred.  So in general, being adopted does not necessarily make you a member of that Nation. Recuriting members off the Internet doesn't make a "Tribe".   States that have a recognition process usually date it to the 1700's. Some because of Removal date it to the late 1800 or even 1900.  It takes generations living in the same community with a ongoing political and cultural structure to constitute a "Tribe".  There are many now that meet the requirements but do not have recognition, as it takes 20 or 30 years to even get recognized.  Plus, they are all the SAME heritage, not a mixture of several different heritages.  I cannot find that Ohio has any criteria for State Recognition. They have a Resolution that means little more than being Ceremonial. There are already many fake Lenape',  Shawnee,  Cherokee groups out there.  Al gave you some advice,  why don't you follow that?

[frederica]

Al is EducateIndian. Sorry you are stuck in a rut. But you need to face the facts. An Indian Center is not a "Tribe".  And that is how they applied for Federal Recognition. So that's about all I have to say.

[redhawk45]

Please read the update in the appropriate post.  I told everyone that the state recognition was only for the year 1999-2000, and on top of that after Sammy disappeared in 2007, so technically there is no Alleghenny Indian Center anymore.  There is only the Alleghenny Lenape.  When there are enough members, and the criteria fulfilled, the Alleghenny Lenape will be putting in as the Alleghenny Lenape, not no Indian center.

I also posted a link to the new website that I posted so former members and those who were dumped by Sammy would come back, knowing that the Alleghenny Lenape are still around.  The website isn't put up for people half way across Turtle Island can come and join (unless they WANT to move to Ohio).  I'm not sure if you were the one who visited there close to 3p or not this afternoon, spending approx. 1m 50 sec's there.  If it was you, thanks for visiting - gave me a chance to check on all who comes to the website.

Eric

Al is EducateIndian. Sorry you are stuck in a rut. But you need to face the facts. An Indian Center is not a "Tribe".  And that is how they applied for Federal Recognition. So that's about all I have to say.

[earthw7]

First, thank you for that bit of information.  I will admit that I shouldn't judge all Federally Recognized tribes just because of a few bad times I had with them, and you pointed that out clearly.

But most NDN's today are of mixed blood, including on the rez's.  So, what makes those people so important and not my mother and I?  Because they married into the tribe?  Because they were on the rolls?  I still say that those tribes shouldn't go by Final Rolls as a part of membership, but as a reference for geneology.  It's still a slap to those who actually did their geneology, tracing it to a certain tribe, and those people not being able to get in.  I could see it in my head that some 1/8th guy who is federally recognized who might be doing membership laughing at someone of equal BQ and tossing those papers away because his/her ancestors aren't on the Final Rolls.  It's rules like that that frustrates and eventually forces those east here to go with some unrecognized tribe or State Recognized tribe.  Those who have no tribe (community) in their area are even more forced to form one of their own.  That's where people like on here wants to put down this tribe and that tribe, saying they're fake and fraud, when in truth that tribe/community was formed due to being forced together for a common goal.

BTW...who's AL?  I only know people by their SN on here.

But, as I pretty much said, but will clarify, you cannot say these federally recognized people on the rez are of the same heritage, for they're mixed.  If they were of the same heritage, then they all would be full blooded and nothing else (or inbred).  On top of that, you have those of OTHER tribal blood being adopted by a nation and/or family, in the past to now.  So, technically, they are NOT of the same heritage.

For example, my mother and I were adopted into the Alleghenny Lenape 5 years ago, not because of any Lenape we would have in us (because we have no Lenape), but because of our Shawnee ancestry, for the Lenape are the Grandfather tribe to the Shawnee.  That makes us Lenape by adoption, though Caucasian/Athabaskan/Shawnee/Cree by blood.  I also know that when you ARE adopted by a tribe, you must drop any affiliation with any other tribe/nation.

Eric

Eric, I think you are missing the entire point.  First, a Nation has the right to choose how it enrolls it members. Some use BQ, some do not. most all use the Final Rolls. Second, adoption when it occurs is to a family. Your obligation then is to that family. Rarely, do the Nations adopt, but it has occurred.  So in general, being adopted does not necessarily make you a member of that Nation. Recuriting members off the Internet doesn't make a "Tribe".   States that have a recognition process usually date it to the 1700's. Some because of Removal date it to the late 1800 or even 1900.  It takes generations living in the same community with a ongoing political and cultural structure to constitute a "Tribe".  There are many now that meet the requirements but do not have recognition, as it takes 20 or 30 years to even get recognized.  Plus, they are all the SAME heritage, not a mixture of several different heritages.  I cannot find that Ohio has any criteria for State Recognition. They have a Resolution that means little more than being Ceremonial. There are already many fake Lenape',  Shawnee,  Cherokee groups out there.  Al gave you some advice,  why don't you follow that?

I guess for i have problems with your issues because it sounds like your talking about those cherokees or the Oklahoma tribes?? I think that there is only a couple of reservation in Oklahoma but many nations.
I still don't understand why you are talikng about genealogy???
My people have had contact since 1870s so that is about 138 years. We know our families and we are all mixed bloods.
There are no state recoginzed tribes in my area and no tribes that have been removed from their homelands. We are the largest land bases tribes in america under the Dine who own the most land. i can show where my great great great great great grandfather is buried. My family have lived on this land for thousands of years.

My point is each tribe is different, each tribe has different rule for their nations, each tribe enrolls their members a different way, My tribe we have to 1/4, some tribe you have to be from the mother side or other from the father's side, some use linearl descendant, some use blood of other tribes, some do not, some use a thing called the Dawes rolls, some use the census records. the whole point is each nation has a right to determine who belongs to their nation.

If the nation does not accept you!  you don't belong nothing you do will change that including creating your own nation.
as we ask people
what nation claims you
what are your elders name
who are you relatived to
for a native person whose question are easy.

Being native is not hobby by our lives

If a person believe he or she is native then just give up everything move to the rez find an elder to teach you and learn about who you are. You can learn nothing from book or learn from an adopted tribes which is not your own.
The problem we see is this pan indianism where people mix up the beliefs and people just get confused.
It is funny to watch a person from the east used lakota word to be indian.

[MatoSiWin]

But most NDN's today are of mixed blood, including on the rez's.  So, what makes those people so important and not my mother and I?  Because they married into the tribe?  Because they were on the rolls?  I still say that those tribes shouldn't go by Final Rolls as a part of membership, but as a reference for geneology.  It's still a slap to those who actually did their geneology, tracing it to a certain tribe, and those people not being able to get in.  I could see it in my head that some 1/8th guy who is federally recognized who might be doing membership laughing at someone of equal BQ and tossing those papers away because his/her ancestors aren't on the Final Rolls.  It's rules like that that frustrates and eventually forces those east here to go with some unrecognized tribe or State Recognized tribe.  Those who have no tribe (community) in their area are even more forced to form one of their own.   That's where people like on here wants to put down this tribe and that tribe, saying they're fake and fraud, when in truth that tribe/community was formed due to being forced together for a common goal.
Eric

I guess I'm a little curious... why is it SO important for you to be "recognized"?  What are you hoping to gain by becoming "enrolled"?  I'm not asking this to be rude, I sincerely want to know what the motivation is.  There are many NDNs that for whatever reason are unable to enroll (as Earth said, the criteria is different for different tribes... it could be that they are NDN from their mom's side, but that particular tribe bases enrollment by the Father's side).  It may be frustrating or disappointing to them, but it doesn't "force" them to go out and create a new tribe.  If they know their family, and their family's family, that is usually enough.  Please don't view this as an attack of any kind, it's just that the level of insistance is puzzling. 

[redhawk45]

Well, this has gone from simple questions, to people doubting who I am, to geneology, to just being frustrated.

I'm not seeing this as an attack, since apparently my mother and I's intentions of why we want to be recognized as who we are:  NDN, was overlooked in several other posts.

My own family has kept the secret of being NDN for a long time...3 generations back from my mom, 4 from me.  It took 5 years ago for us to actually find out, even though we are still unclear as to clans, etc.  If there is any record of this, it's in the famly bible, hidden away from everyone by a cousin of my mother's, trying to keep the secret still.

My mother and I would see it as an accomplishment to our ancestors for reuniting our famliy with the tribe they belonged to.  It would ease my mother's nerves - she doesn't even have much time to live anyway - 2 years max due to cancer.  This has been a battle for us all this time, trying to be recognized, by the tribe our blood is of.  Sure, we might be a bit ridiculed because of the white in us, but at least we (my mother and I) would have closed the circle that has been left open for so long.  So, you see, knowing is one thing, but re-establishing our family link with the tribe is a whole other story.

And when I marry (and I have my own eyes on the look out), and have children, I want my children to know their heritage, like what my mother and I would learn when we become enrolled.  If my mother and I was enrolled, for example, right now, and one of the requirements was to move to the rez or town, we would move.  I'd drop what college I have been doing here and move with my mother westward.

That's my answer to your questions.  And what irks me so much is people like Barnaby and Mama-Porcupine who swears I am just white, and doesn't want to recognize the NDN part of me.  I was taught that you had to either be white, or be NDN...even told this by an elder I spoke to down in Cherokee, NC (and to me, any grayhair is an elder).  So I chose to be NDN.

Eric

But most NDN's today are of mixed blood, including on the rez's.  So, what makes those people so important and not my mother and I?  Because they married into the tribe?  Because they were on the rolls?  I still say that those tribes shouldn't go by Final Rolls as a part of membership, but as a reference for geneology.  It's still a slap to those who actually did their geneology, tracing it to a certain tribe, and those people not being able to get in.  I could see it in my head that some 1/8th guy who is federally recognized who might be doing membership laughing at someone of equal BQ and tossing those papers away because his/her ancestors aren't on the Final Rolls.  It's rules like that that frustrates and eventually forces those east here to go with some unrecognized tribe or State Recognized tribe.  Those who have no tribe (community) in their area are even more forced to form one of their own.   That's where people like on here wants to put down this tribe and that tribe, saying they're fake and fraud, when in truth that tribe/community was formed due to being forced together for a common goal.
Eric

I guess I'm a little curious... why is it SO important for you to be "recognized"?  What are you hoping to gain by becoming "enrolled"?  I'm not asking this to be rude, I sincerely want to know what the motivation is.  There are many NDNs that for whatever reason are unable to enroll (as Earth said, the criteria is different for different tribes... it could be that they are NDN from their mom's side, but that particular tribe bases enrollment by the Father's side).  It may be frustrating or disappointing to them, but it doesn't "force" them to go out and create a new tribe.  If they know their family, and their family's family, that is usually enough.  Please don't view this as an attack of any kind, it's just that the level of insistance is puzzling. 

[earthw7]

SO HERE ARE YOUR QUESTION.

Excluding Federally Recognized Tribes, WHY WOULD YOU EXCLUDING US?

which leaves State Recognized and unrecognized tribes,
how can you tell which one is legitiment or not? 

WE CAN TELL BY THEIR HISTORY, CULTURE, LANGUAGE AND THEIR RELATIVES

Meaning, how can you tell which ones are frauds and which ones are real? 

YES I CAN!

Other than if a tribe charges a fee to be a member

NO TRIBES CHARGE A FEE ONLY FAKES OR CLUBS
(even I don't believe in charging a fee).

Also, it brings me to the next question: 
Who all on here are Federally Recognized? 

ME! ME! ME!

State Recognized, or not even recognized at all?   
DON'T KNOW ANY STATE RECOGINZED NATIVE
I DO KNOW UNRECOGNIZED WHO ARE NATIVE BY THEIR CULTURE/LANGUAGE AND LAND.

Who are just plain 'white men'? 
(note:  I don't put that as derrogatory, since I have white within me as well as NDN.)

If you're unrecognized,
NOT ME I KNOW WHO IAM
how can you fully bash any other State recognized and unrecognized band?
WHO ARE YOU TALKING TOO?

 Sure, unrecognized bands are tricky, and have to be thoroughly checked out, but everyone has to give them a chance for they could really be the real thing. 
AS LONG AS THEY KNOW THEIR/HISTORY/CULTURE/LANGUAGE AND LAND NOT SOMETHING THE READ IN A BOOK

As to State Recognized tribes,

unrecognized tribal members should stop and think when you start bashing them. 
It took them years and cash to get to where they are today.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN "CASH" YOU HAVE PAY THAT SOUND CROOKED

Which here's the follow up question: 

Are you bashing them because they turned you down for membership? 
WHAT? I WAS BORN A MEMBER OF MY TRIBE!!!! WHY WOULD I BE TURNED DOWN?
MY FAMILY HAS ALWAYS BEEN HERE.

For example, that's pretty much the one reason why I will always put down the alleged Blue Creek Band of Shawnee - BUT THIS IS A FAKE TRIBE

Tula lied about their State Recognition and lied about applying for Federal Recognition. 

The Shawnee URB ANOTHER FAKE TRIBE OL POPE AND DARK RAIN

didn't turn us down, but their membership policy is very confusing, with having split families (might take one mother and one child, but won't take the father and another child), and on top of that they would want us out 5 or more times a year to help out, when we live at least 3 hours away from them and my mother is disabled (along with pets at home - 2 birds, 1 fish, 1 cat). 
WHAT?? KIND OF GROUP ASK THAT? ANOTHER FAKE TRIBE

If it wasn't a problem, we would be members by now, way before the Alleghenny Lenape.

I can understand if one or more of you are Federally Recognized. 

Federally Recognized tribes, especially from west of the Mississippi, have always bashed the eastern tribes and hardly wants to recognize anyone back here. 
UNLESS YOU ARE LAKOTA AND HAVE 1/4 BLOOD AND PARENT OR GRANDPARENT WHO IS A MEMBER OF THE TRIBE THE ANSER IS NO YOU CAN'T BE A MEMBER

I have done my geneology, even did a DNA test through DNAtribes.com (which wasn't one on your list), and I even have photographic proof of my heritage. 
WHAT!! WHY DO A TEST JUST ASK YOUR GRANDPARENTS, WE DON'T DO TEST WE ARE JUST WHO WE ARE YOU CAN TELL BY OUR SKIN COLOR.

But, unfortunately, due to those tribes wanting to go with the 'white man's' rolls, AND with blood quantum, which the Federal Govt. totally discarded and now is just up to the tribes, my mother and I cannot be members of those existing tribes. 

EACH TRIBE HAS THEIR OWN RULES FOR MEMBERSHIP

I cannot help my ancestors (great great great grandmothers and so on) didn't go west with every other tribe to suffer. 
mY FAMILY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IN THE WEST AND NEVER SUFFERED WE SURVIVE

They did what they thought was right - inter-mingle with the white man so they can stay on their homeland.  If it wasn't for my mother's persistance, the NDN part of us would still be covered up.  WHAT THERE IS NO WHITE BLOOD HERE

So, all my mother and I have left is State Recognition. WHY IF THE TRIBE DON'T RECOGIZE YOU YOU ARE NOT NATIVE.

Though, I don't think ANY tribe, who has applied over and over for Federal Recognition, will ever be Federally Recognized. 
WE NEVER APPLIED FOR RECOGNIATION OUR CAME FROM THE TREATY

If it happens, it's far and few between....really far and few. 

For example, if the Shawnee URB does become Federally Recognized, it'll probably be in my children's time...whenever I have one or two...lol.
I SERIOUS DOUBT THAT, THESE ARE FRAUDS

I know this is a lot of questions, but I would love to know each person's individual answer to them.  It helps me get to know who you all are, and possibly help me out as to my predicament I have now and possibly help my mother and I for the future.

Eric
 
 SO ERIC I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION
 

[redhawk45]

Well, good for you that you're Dine of the Southwest, that your tribe suffers little and that every day isn't a struggle to learn your heritage, your language, your ceremonies, and that you can still talk to your grandparents and possibly great grandparents, that you know where your great great great grandparents are buried, and is very successful with selling crafts that are way out of price range of a normal working person to buy.

I wasn't directing my latest comment to you, I was gonna pretty much accept what you typed and let it go, to be respectful although every single comment you made to me was inflamed with anger and most likely the word 'wannabe' going through your head.

I cannot talk to my grandparents, they all are dead...unless you are stating that you can speak to the dead and are offering your services?  I'd love to speak with my great great grandparents and on back, to find out first hand my family, language and culture.  Don't be so hyped up that YOU think you know everything.  I even know a Cheyenne living in Lame Deer, Montana, who has to learn his Cheyenne culture, language, etc, out of a book, and from what he told me there's plenty of elders around to ask first hand.

I'm SURE there's some white blood there somewhere, especially if my mother's cousin did marry a Dine woman before I was born, but they couldn't have any children.  So, don't say your tribe has no white blood, it's there.

But, I did get you to admit your discrimination towards anyone who isn't recognized federally.  There are MANY people who have NDN blood in them that aren't fed. recognized.  It's people like you who doesn't want to notice that fact and makes those tribes grow stagnant (not neccessarily yours, since the Dine have always been there).  There are many federally recognized tribes out there that ARE suffering because they won't allow those who can prove their geneology in.  That's one point I've been trying to make.  If it keeps up, in 100 years, I'll bet my life insurance (for I won't be alive by then) that there will be a lot fewer federally recognized tribes out there.

To each of your answers, you have pretty much showed that you're self-centered, and I won't judge you by your tribe/nation.  I still have deep respect for your tribe/nation, for I know people are different all over...but it makes me know there's always going to be a handful of people like you for each tribe/nation, and those troublemakers are those I need to stay away from...and that goes for anyone that has some sense.

Eric

SO HERE ARE YOUR QUESTION.

Excluding Federally Recognized Tribes, WHY WOULD YOU EXCLUDING US?

which leaves State Recognized and unrecognized tribes,
how can you tell which one is legitiment or not? 

WE CAN TELL BY THEIR HISTORY, CULTURE, LANGUAGE AND THEIR RELATIVES

Meaning, how can you tell which ones are frauds and which ones are real? 

YES I CAN!

Other than if a tribe charges a fee to be a member

NO TRIBES CHARGE A FEE ONLY FAKES OR CLUBS
(even I don't believe in charging a fee).

Also, it brings me to the next question: 
Who all on here are Federally Recognized? 

ME! ME! ME!

State Recognized, or not even recognized at all?   
DON'T KNOW ANY STATE RECOGINZED NATIVE
I DO KNOW UNRECOGNIZED WHO ARE NATIVE BY THEIR CULTURE/LANGUAGE AND LAND.

Who are just plain 'white men'? 
(note:  I don't put that as derrogatory, since I have white within me as well as NDN.)

If you're unrecognized,
NOT ME I KNOW WHO IAM
how can you fully bash any other State recognized and unrecognized band?
WHO ARE YOU TALKING TOO?

 Sure, unrecognized bands are tricky, and have to be thoroughly checked out, but everyone has to give them a chance for they could really be the real thing. 
AS LONG AS THEY KNOW THEIR/HISTORY/CULTURE/LANGUAGE AND LAND NOT SOMETHING THE READ IN A BOOK

As to State Recognized tribes,

unrecognized tribal members should stop and think when you start bashing them. 
It took them years and cash to get to where they are today.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN "CASH" YOU HAVE PAY THAT SOUND CROOKED

Which here's the follow up question: 

Are you bashing them because they turned you down for membership? 
WHAT? I WAS BORN A MEMBER OF MY TRIBE!!!! WHY WOULD I BE TURNED DOWN?
MY FAMILY HAS ALWAYS BEEN HERE.

For example, that's pretty much the one reason why I will always put down the alleged Blue Creek Band of Shawnee - BUT THIS IS A FAKE TRIBE

Tula lied about their State Recognition and lied about applying for Federal Recognition. 

The Shawnee URB ANOTHER FAKE TRIBE OL POPE AND DARK RAIN

didn't turn us down, but their membership policy is very confusing, with having split families (might take one mother and one child, but won't take the father and another child), and on top of that they would want us out 5 or more times a year to help out, when we live at least 3 hours away from them and my mother is disabled (along with pets at home - 2 birds, 1 fish, 1 cat). 
WHAT?? KIND OF GROUP ASK THAT? ANOTHER FAKE TRIBE

If it wasn't a problem, we would be members by now, way before the Alleghenny Lenape.

I can understand if one or more of you are Federally Recognized. 

Federally Recognized tribes, especially from west of the Mississippi, have always bashed the eastern tribes and hardly wants to recognize anyone back here. 
UNLESS YOU ARE LAKOTA AND HAVE 1/4 BLOOD AND PARENT OR GRANDPARENT WHO IS A MEMBER OF THE TRIBE THE ANSER IS NO YOU CAN'T BE A MEMBER

I have done my geneology, even did a DNA test through DNAtribes.com (which wasn't one on your list), and I even have photographic proof of my heritage. 
WHAT!! WHY DO A TEST JUST ASK YOUR GRANDPARENTS, WE DON'T DO TEST WE ARE JUST WHO WE ARE YOU CAN TELL BY OUR SKIN COLOR.

But, unfortunately, due to those tribes wanting to go with the 'white man's' rolls, AND with blood quantum, which the Federal Govt. totally discarded and now is just up to the tribes, my mother and I cannot be members of those existing tribes. 

EACH TRIBE HAS THEIR OWN RULES FOR MEMBERSHIP

I cannot help my ancestors (great great great grandmothers and so on) didn't go west with every other tribe to suffer. 
mY FAMILY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IN THE WEST AND NEVER SUFFERED WE SURVIVE

They did what they thought was right - inter-mingle with the white man so they can stay on their homeland.  If it wasn't for my mother's persistance, the NDN part of us would still be covered up.  WHAT THERE IS NO WHITE BLOOD HERE

So, all my mother and I have left is State Recognition. WHY IF THE TRIBE DON'T RECOGIZE YOU YOU ARE NOT NATIVE.

Though, I don't think ANY tribe, who has applied over and over for Federal Recognition, will ever be Federally Recognized. 
WE NEVER APPLIED FOR RECOGNIATION OUR CAME FROM THE TREATY

If it happens, it's far and few between....really far and few. 

For example, if the Shawnee URB does become Federally Recognized, it'll probably be in my children's time...whenever I have one or two...lol.
I SERIOUS DOUBT THAT, THESE ARE FRAUDS

I know this is a lot of questions, but I would love to know each person's individual answer to them.  It helps me get to know who you all are, and possibly help me out as to my predicament I have now and possibly help my mother and I for the future.

Eric
 
 SO ERIC I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION