What makes an NDN an NDN?

[earthw7]

Well, good for you that you're Dine of the Southwest, that your tribe suffers little and that every day isn't a struggle to learn your heritage, your language, your ceremonies, and that you can still talk to your grandparents and possibly great grandparents, that you know where your great great great grandparents are buried, and is very successful with selling crafts that are way out of price range of a normal working person to buy.

I wasn't directing my latest comment to you, I was gonna pretty much accept what you typed and let it go, to be respectful although every single comment you made to me was inflamed with anger and most likely the word 'wannabe' going through your head.

I cannot talk to my grandparents, they all are dead...unless you are stating that you can speak to the dead and are offering your services?  I'd love to speak with my great great grandparents and on back, to find out first hand my family, language and culture.  Don't be so hyped up that YOU think you know everything.  I even know a Cheyenne living in Lame Deer, Montana, who has to learn his Cheyenne culture, language, etc, out of a book, and from what he told me there's plenty of elders around to ask first hand.

I'm SURE there's some white blood there somewhere, especially if my mother's cousin did marry a Dine woman before I was born, but they couldn't have any children.  So, don't say your tribe has no white blood, it's there.

But, I did get you to admit your discrimination towards anyone who isn't recognized federally.  There are MANY people who have NDN blood in them that aren't fed. recognized.  It's people like you who doesn't want to notice that fact and makes those tribes grow stagnant (not neccessarily yours, since the Dine have always been there).  There are many federally recognized tribes out there that ARE suffering because they won't allow those who can prove their geneology in.  That's one point I've been trying to make.  If it keeps up, in 100 years, I'll bet my life insurance (for I won't be alive by then) that there will be a lot fewer federally recognized tribes out there.

To each of your answers, you have pretty much showed that you're self-centered, and I won't judge you by your tribe/nation.  I still have deep respect for your tribe/nation, for I know people are different all over...but it makes me know there's always going to be a handful of people like you for each tribe/nation, and those troublemakers are those I need to stay away from...and that goes for anyone that has some sense.

Eric

Who are you talking Too?

I am not Dine!!!

I am Lakota from the northern Plain in fact North Dakota.

I am sorry the Cheyenne must learn from a book who wrote the book?

I don't know everything but i know my people and my culture

I don't have no Dine in my family at all

I don't have white blood either, I am 7/8 Hunkpapa/Blackfeet and 1/8 oglala

If you can read I said i have friend who are unrecogized but they know their culture/language and land.
They are native.

your statement:
It's people like you who doesn't want to notice that fact and makes those tribes grow stagnant (not neccessarily yours, since the Dine have always been there). 

confusing statement what does the Dine have to do with the Lakota?? I know know their history only my people.

your statement
There are many federally recognized tribes out there that ARE suffering because they won't allow those who can prove their geneology in

which tribes? What does genealogy have to do with enrollment of a nation?

your statement
If it keeps up, in 100 years, I'll bet my life insurance (for I won't be alive by then) that there will be a lot fewer federally recognized tribes out there.

what are you talking about my nation is the fastest growing population in our state. over 50% of our people are under the age of 18 years old and all members of the tribe.

what trouble has i caused i answered your question like you asked

[Moma_porcupine]

Eric

Well, this has gone from simple questions, to people doubting who I am, to geneology, to just being frustrated

Eric, these aren't simple questions and they aren't all about you and your Mother. Look At the title of this thread . Whatever the answers are, they have to be practical to  fairly apply to everyone, such as all your cousins and everyone of the same description. 

Eric

It would ease my mother's nerves - she doesn't even have much time to live anyway - 2 years max due to cancer.  This has been a battle for us all this time, trying to be recognized, by the tribe our blood is of.

The way you are going about it is most likely to alienate you completely.  Why - because you come across like you think that however this is defined it should be all about you and what you want, not the bigger picture, or what is needed to retain the long term health of tribe and culture.

Eric

And when I marry (and I have my own eyes on the look out), and have children, I want my children to know their heritage, like what my mother and I would learn when we become enrolled

I think MatoSiWin asked you a really good question. Why do you feel you need to be enrolled in a tribe?

You already are a citizen of a Nation which has many members with similar blood lines to yourself - and with each generation of more intermarriages there will be more. It's caled the tribe of the USA.

If you don't like how your tribe is conducting itself , do something about it from within. Looking to be enrolled in tribe that pretends your prominantely non native heritage doesn't exist just seems you are searching for other people who will support you in your denial. You don't need t be enrolled in any tribe to practice and encourage traditional morals and values and an indigenous sense of responsibility .

Those specific protected sensitve cultral traditions you say you want to practice almost always loose their meaning outside the context of a deeply rooted contiunously existing tradition which is practiced and known by the whole community . Why not find strength and joy from leaving them where they belong , and knowing they are still being practiced in a good way? It seems non native people with their strong emphasis on the importance of the individual always think what is most important is that they personally have the opprotunity to be in whatever role they choose, but if you were more in touch with real Native cultures and not just your fantasy of it, you would know there is many roles within a native society which are only performed by selected people within that society, and not everyone who is enrolled in a nation can do whatever they like with that Nations culture and ceremonies.

But you mentioned wanting government funding- and I suppose these suggestions would not satisfy that .
 
IMO Your children would have a lot better chance of knowing a bit of their REAL heritage if you could be more realistic and respectful of the limitations that come with having a mostly non native background.

The way you talk you sound like that nightmare house guest that was welcome to stay 3 days and stays 3 months and you have to get the police to evict them. You sure wouldn't get invited to visit again ...

If you discovered you had a gr gr grandmother who came from Africa would you be obbessing about how you had wrongly been denied the right to be a citizen of a country in Africa?

For that matter a lot of your European ancestors were wrongly forced out of their homelands. Why don't you feel ripped off that you aren't eligible for English socal programs ? Your way of selecting just what you want from your own background and stringing it together into a story of entitlements seems really dishonest.   

Eric

And what irks me so much is people like Barnaby and Mama-Porcupine who swears I am just white, and doesn't want to recognize the NDN part of me.

I never said that. I said you are 15/16 non native - and your family also has had a long immersion in a non native cultural background. I just pointed out you seem to be desparate to deny the vaste majority of your heritage

Eric

I was taught that you had to either be white, or be NDN...even told this by an elder I spoke to down in Cherokee, NC

I think thats true in a way. Kind of like that bible parable about a rich man not being able to enter the kingdom of heaven any easier than a camel can pass through the eye of a needle.

Native ways of thinking tend to be about the community and past and future generations, and are therefore too big to fit into non native ways of thinking which tends to be more about acheiving short term individual satisfaction. So people can't hold both world views at once. 

But in another way I don't think it's true that people are either native or nonnative . For example the Metis people are truely a mix of both. There are many people who have real influences from both cultures and world veiws and are niether purely European or purely Ndn - and I think you are one of them . Some of these people manage to integrate this and do something with it to make the world a better place. You could be one of those , but you need to start putting the long term health and survival of the culture and true cultural values ahead of your individual fanatsies and desires.

Why not work to reform the colonial European culture from within, into a culture that is more respectful of indigenous values? Why not adopt a long term goal to preserve these basic traditional values , morals and responsibilities , so that in over the next 400 years the influence of increasing mixing might lead to an improved American society ? Why not work to protect indigenous communities so they continue to have enough control of theior own cultures and resources to maintain a strong and vibrant culture.

I don't mean I think the best way to do this is by everyone wanting to directly paticipate in indigenous cultures. Or worse do shallow imitations of ceremonies - Sometimes the best support is just by learning and teaching others to stay out of the way.   

We all benifit from making sure indigenous peoples have what they need to maintain their cultures, and the knowledge and values of these cultures does have extremely positive influences on everyone it touches - often in very ordinary day to day transactions.

Eric

There are MANY people who have NDN blood in them that aren't fed. recognized

. 

It's a bit creepy the way you keep thinking it is all about blood even a very tiny amount of it- and you put so little importance on people living in a community which has retained it's family relationships , Native identity and culture.

When you repeatedly put so much emphasis on blood , it's like you are turning being an Ndn into a commodity like having a bottle of fine wine, or a gold ring.   

Eric

To each of your answers, you have pretty much showed that you're self-centered

No Eric, it is you who is sounding very self centered.

Eric

but it makes me know there's always going to be a handful of people like you for each tribe/nation, and those troublemakers are those I need to stay away from

I know you don't see this , but what you are saying is that Native people who have strongly retained theur culture and identity are trouble makers because they interfer with you redefining what an Ndn is to include predominantely non native people such as yourself. Your lack of respect for Native peoples authority to define themselves and their own people and communities , once again sounds like the way nonnative people think about things. You sound like yo are dismissing Ndns as non people or incompetant to control their own resources - which you have decided you want.

Your world veiw has repeatedly come across sounds as very self centered and non native to me.

This being the case, I really think you should look into some of the wrongs done to your European ancestors and see what sort of reimbursments or repatriations you might be entitled to on the basis of that part of your families heritage. Such claims would be a lot more realistic .

About the only thing I agree with you on is that many families who moved to a distant place don't recall much about grandparents and greatgrandparents, and unless everybody has stayed in the same community it can take an effort to learn about your family background. It's true some families hid their Native ancestry - but I honestly think that for every family that did this all the nieghbors gossiped and the nieghborhood children who heard bits of hushed stories often mistakenly passed these on as stories, but telling them as if the Ndn grandma was their own.   

What Earth is saying is real. If you don't know your Ndn relatives and grandparents you aren't Ndn . You may have some mixed blood and even some sensitivity so some parts of Native ways , but this just makes you a non native person with some Native influences. Who we are is much more about the communities we live in and the relationships we have, than being an individual in possesion of something- whether that is fine wine, gold or a tiny bit of ndn blood .

Just my opinion , but I hope this helps you get a bit of perspective and to understand what is being said here.

[Superdog]

Ok..I think I see what your going for Eric.  However, you do seem to miss the point of people's posts.  There's really good info in there, but you're not seeing it.  This post is written with the idea of respect towards you Eric, but there's some things you're gonna read here you probably won't like....the words aren't meant to attack you....i'm just being brutally honest so there's no confusion.  The major points will be written in all caps so if you miss anything in the post you can go back and check the parts written in all CAPS so that you can see the major points easily.

I'll just say this.  The route your choosing to be recognized as NDN is wrong.  You'll NEVER get what you want out of it.  You're trying to be "recognized" as "NDN" by sidestepping government laws and regulations, but the point your missing is THERE'S NO LAW THAT CAN "MAKE" YOU NDN.

It all starts with family, then community, then tribe/nation.  I hate to burst your bubble, but in your particular situation you're not gonna get any piece of paper that's gonna be your "proof of authenticity."  It's just not gonna happen.  

In your situation with the Alleghenny Lenape...the tribe you joined is not a tribe.  It's a fraudulent organization run formerly by a fraudulent chief.  Your weren't adopted...you paid your way in...in short.....YOU AND YOUR MOM GOT SCAMMED BY THE KINDS OF FRAUDS THIS BOARD FIGHTS TO STOP.

I feel for you....I can imagine it's a terrible feeling to be sucked in by these types...they tell you everything you want to hear to make you feel like you belong...then they take your money and time and leave you with nothing.  You said yourself that your mom was desperate to belong and be recognized by a tribe and that's why you became part of them.  THAT DESPERATION IS JUST WHAT THESE FRAUDULENT TRIBES PREY UPON.

I don't doubt that the Alleghenny Lenape existed in Ohio...I don't doubt that the descendants still exist there.  I believe you ....but somewhere along the line they gave up their community, their land, and their self-governance.  What's left are remnants.

When it comes to Federal Recognition some of the MAJOR criteria that has to be met before they even CONSIDER the application are:  1) The existence of a continuous community considered to be Allegheny Lenape from the time Ohio came into existence, 2)  A land base occupied by the Allegheny Lenape through that time, and 3)  A form of goverment practiced by the Allegeny Lenape in continuity.

All 3 of these major criteria simply disappeared for the Allegheny Lenape somewhere along the line.  For whatever reasons they gave up their community and their right to govern themselves and once that's gone....there's no possible way for them to EVER get Federal Recognition.

It seems you've been taught that the road to Federal Recognition lies in State Recognition.  That's completely false.  YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE STATE RECOGNITION FOR FEDERAL RECOGNITION.  That fantasy was most likely fed to you by the fraudulent chief who ran off with all the money or people that were taught by him.  That's what fraudulent tribes do.  They prey on your desperation and the LACK OF COMMON KNOWLEDGE about Federal Indian laws.  They keep their money making machine going off the backs of people like you and your mom and just before the money dries up....they take off....

In fact, I'd make a strong guess that your fraudulent chief KNEW that he was never gonna be considered a real tribe......but he had to give you something to work for....a mission in your life so that you'd keep following him and give up your time and money working for him.

So....with all honesty.....for your own sake and sanity as well as your sick mother....quit following the fantasy given to you by a fraud.  You're a victim of a scam....don't become the perpetrator of that same scam.

I'm not saying all this to destroy your spirit or your pride in your heritage.  I'm only being honest with you.  If you really want to honor your heritage then it goes just like I said before.....through family, then community, then tribe/nation.  Enrollment doesn't make you Indian...how you live your life does.  But as we've all been saying...you've got a lot to learn....you've not really pinned down for yourself where your heritage really comes from.  Start there....when that's figured out go and visit the existing communities that exist.  You may have relatives there....be honest about your story....let people know that your family has denied your heritage through several generations and when you and your mom learned of it you wanted to reconnect.  It may even mean moving closer or into that community (and i'm talking a community that has existed in continuity....not one that just popped up like the URB).  Learn the language....that's probably the most important.  If you work hard enough with a good spirit, community members will recognize that and help you....they may take you into their extended family to ensure you stay on a good path.....just realize.....just about every Indian community has been burned by taking in outsiders who stick around...learn a few things and take it and leave and begin their own fraudulent tribe/shamanism practice....so it's gonna take A LOOOOONNNNNG time to truly gain people's trust.  Just stay honest....don't try too hard or try to prove yourself too much and go into it WILLING TO COMMIT TO THAT COMMUNITY FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE if you find your place there.  When I say commit...I don't mean give money or work...you gotta give your heart.

One more thing I'll address before I'm done is the idea you have about tribes east/west of the Mississippi.  Don't get caught up in that.  Even full-blood Indians get that wrong.  My tribe is well east of the Mississippi...we are federally recognized, our community has never been moved, our language exists and is spoken fluently by well over half the community with efforts to fully immerse our schools in it to try and keep it that way or improve it.  I have two very close friends who are not enrolled with federally recognized tribes, but they've never been questioned about their heritage.  They live it every day as well as their families.  For one friend his father is full-blooded, but his tribe is matrilineal...they trace their descendants through the women so if you're mom is not part of that tribe...regardless of your dad's blood quantum....you can't be enrolled.  So he's never gonna be enrolled there...but it's simply not an issue for him....he was raised with his culture....he knows his community and they accept him.  For the other....her father had disagreements with the tribe's government long before they were born so he chose not to enroll his children....she was still brought up inside her culture and community....she's still considered part of them.  Neither one of them has the paperwork, but they are both considered NDN.

Your heritage is a part of you.....it can't be proven, it can't be bought.  You can only live it and accept it.  If you choose to honor it just remember....it's not easy.

Superdog

[redhawk45]

Correction...ok, I mis-read an earlier post of yours about the Dine, with you stating your tribe is the largest just UNDER the Dine...that's my error.  Don't get your self worked up over that.

But I won't retract what I said.  If you cannot figure it out, then tough.  As to the questions...it's HOW you proceeded to answer them, AFTER your rude comments to me earlier on.  If you seen, I thanked those in the very beginning BECAUSE they answered those questions, which were unbiased, BEFORE they asked their own questions. 

I asked these questions to get a better understanding of those who are on this site.  I see some good people, some bad, and some that are self-centered.

Eric

Well, good for you that you're Dine of the Southwest, that your tribe suffers little and that every day isn't a struggle to learn your heritage, your language, your ceremonies, and that you can still talk to your grandparents and possibly great grandparents, that you know where your great great great grandparents are buried, and is very successful with selling crafts that are way out of price range of a normal working person to buy.

I wasn't directing my latest comment to you, I was gonna pretty much accept what you typed and let it go, to be respectful although every single comment you made to me was inflamed with anger and most likely the word 'wannabe' going through your head.

I cannot talk to my grandparents, they all are dead...unless you are stating that you can speak to the dead and are offering your services?  I'd love to speak with my great great grandparents and on back, to find out first hand my family, language and culture.  Don't be so hyped up that YOU think you know everything.  I even know a Cheyenne living in Lame Deer, Montana, who has to learn his Cheyenne culture, language, etc, out of a book, and from what he told me there's plenty of elders around to ask first hand.

I'm SURE there's some white blood there somewhere, especially if my mother's cousin did marry a Dine woman before I was born, but they couldn't have any children.  So, don't say your tribe has no white blood, it's there.

But, I did get you to admit your discrimination towards anyone who isn't recognized federally.  There are MANY people who have NDN blood in them that aren't fed. recognized.  It's people like you who doesn't want to notice that fact and makes those tribes grow stagnant (not neccessarily yours, since the Dine have always been there).  There are many federally recognized tribes out there that ARE suffering because they won't allow those who can prove their geneology in.  That's one point I've been trying to make.  If it keeps up, in 100 years, I'll bet my life insurance (for I won't be alive by then) that there will be a lot fewer federally recognized tribes out there.

To each of your answers, you have pretty much showed that you're self-centered, and I won't judge you by your tribe/nation.  I still have deep respect for your tribe/nation, for I know people are different all over...but it makes me know there's always going to be a handful of people like you for each tribe/nation, and those troublemakers are those I need to stay away from...and that goes for anyone that has some sense.

Eric

Who are you talking Too?

I am not Dine!!!

I am Lakota from the northern Plain in fact North Dakota.

I am sorry the Cheyenne must learn from a book who wrote the book?

I don't know everything but i know my people and my culture

I don't have no Dine in my family at all

I don't have white blood either, I am 7/8 Hunkpapa/Blackfeet and 1/8 oglala

If you can read I said i have friend who are unrecogized but they know their culture/language and land.
They are native.

your statement:
It's people like you who doesn't want to notice that fact and makes those tribes grow stagnant (not neccessarily yours, since the Dine have always been there). 

confusing statement what does the Dine have to do with the Lakota?? I know know their history only my people.

your statement
There are many federally recognized tribes out there that ARE suffering because they won't allow those who can prove their geneology in

which tribes? What does genealogy have to do with enrollment of a nation?

your statement
If it keeps up, in 100 years, I'll bet my life insurance (for I won't be alive by then) that there will be a lot fewer federally recognized tribes out there.

what are you talking about my nation is the fastest growing population in our state. over 50% of our people are under the age of 18 years old and all members of the tribe.

what trouble has i caused i answered your question like you asked

[redhawk45]

All I can say is that I know you and a selected few doesn't want to accept those who have NDN within them, doesn't want to have nothing to do with them.  Superdog says to forget about the west/east thing, but that's going to be hard when it comes to you and the few others I know.

I have read many requirements for enrollment out there (and more to read), and MANY includes blood, so you cannot disregard that aspect.  If you wanna know why I keep mentioning blood, that's why.

I'm not self-centered...I'm just trying to find out how each and every person thinks out there, so that "I" can learn something.    If you don't like how I go about learning, going about in a circle....

Ya know...you keep saying I'm non-native, but from your description of non-native it pretty much tells me that YOU think that those who are not Federally Recognized are all white.  That is pretty low to consider that, especially when there are tribes out there who should have been Federally Recognized in the beginning are battling for that recognition.  You're pretty much calling those tribes non-native, even when they're genuine tribes that have a culture/family/land.

If I had African blood in me, I'd be proud of that, but I don't have African in me.  I have NDN, and I AM proud of that fact, and I am TRYING to get my family back with their people...been trying inbetween everything else that's been going on.

I even put on the census I'm NDN this last time, and I will always put it on each and every census because that is who I am.  Sure, I have more to learn about my culture, my language, but I know who I am.

As to me thinking my blood is like fine wine or a gold ring...no.  It is pride that I have.  Pride enough to HELP the Alleghenny Lenape out by getting them back together (do you think I'll be taking over after my mother would die?  heck no!).  Sure, too much pride is boastful, but I got enough that it shows...and I'll be showing it at powwow this September, then next year when I 'pay my way in' to do my first dance in the arena (and no, it's not that crappy regalia you all seen).

LOL...a citizen of the USA?  Tell me...what GOOD has the U.S. did to your family?  My famliy has never been in politics, but inter-married with the tribes who lived here, so pretty much I have as much antagonism towards the USA as you and every other NDN out there has.  The only prob I have with you (and people like you) is your single-mindedness, where you close your doors to those who are your brothers and sisters and cousins, all because they never was on your grandfather's enrollment list.  Why don't you kill every single one of us, then, since you think we plague 'your land'.  It's better than being like an outcast by your own tribe (broad termed), due to what 'mistakes' our ancestors did to yours (broad termed). 

Eric

Eric

Well, this has gone from simple questions, to people doubting who I am, to geneology, to just being frustrated

Eric, these aren't simple questions and they aren't all about you and your Mother. Look At the title of this thread . Whatever the answers are, they have to be practical to  fairly apply to everyone, such as all your cousins and everyone of the same description. 

Eric

It would ease my mother's nerves - she doesn't even have much time to live anyway - 2 years max due to cancer.  This has been a battle for us all this time, trying to be recognized, by the tribe our blood is of.

The way you are going about it is most likely to alienate you completely.  Why - because you come across like you think that however this is defined it should be all about you and what you want, not the bigger picture, or what is needed to retain the long term health of tribe and culture.

Eric

And when I marry (and I have my own eyes on the look out), and have children, I want my children to know their heritage, like what my mother and I would learn when we become enrolled

I think MatoSiWin asked you a really good question. Why do you feel you need to be enrolled in a tribe?

You already are a citizen of a Nation which has many members with similar blood lines to yourself - and with each generation of more intermarriages there will be more. It's caled the tribe of the USA.

If you don't like how your tribe is conducting itself , do something about it from within. Looking to be enrolled in tribe that pretends your prominantely non native heritage doesn't exist just seems you are searching for other people who will support you in your denial. You don't need t be enrolled in any tribe to practice and encourage traditional morals and values and an indigenous sense of responsibility .

Those specific protected sensitve cultral traditions you say you want to practice almost always loose their meaning outside the context of a deeply rooted contiunously existing tradition which is practiced and known by the whole community . Why not find strength and joy from leaving them where they belong , and knowing they are still being practiced in a good way? It seems non native people with their strong emphasis on the importance of the individual always think what is most important is that they personally have the opprotunity to be in whatever role they choose, but if you were more in touch with real Native cultures and not just your fantasy of it, you would know there is many roles within a native society which are only performed by selected people within that society, and not everyone who is enrolled in a nation can do whatever they like with that Nations culture and ceremonies.

But you mentioned wanting government funding- and I suppose these suggestions would not satisfy that .
 
IMO Your children would have a lot better chance of knowing a bit of their REAL heritage if you could be more realistic and respectful of the limitations that come with having a mostly non native background.

The way you talk you sound like that nightmare house guest that was welcome to stay 3 days and stays 3 months and you have to get the police to evict them. You sure wouldn't get invited to visit again ...

If you discovered you had a gr gr grandmother who came from Africa would you be obbessing about how you had wrongly been denied the right to be a citizen of a country in Africa?

For that matter a lot of your European ancestors were wrongly forced out of their homelands. Why don't you feel ripped off that you aren't eligible for English socal programs ? Your way of selecting just what you want from your own background and stringing it together into a story of entitlements seems really dishonest.   

Eric

And what irks me so much is people like Barnaby and Mama-Porcupine who swears I am just white, and doesn't want to recognize the NDN part of me.

I never said that. I said you are 15/16 non native - and your family also has had a long immersion in a non native cultural background. I just pointed out you seem to be desparate to deny the vaste majority of your heritage

Eric

I was taught that you had to either be white, or be NDN...even told this by an elder I spoke to down in Cherokee, NC

I think thats true in a way. Kind of like that bible parable about a rich man not being able to enter the kingdom of heaven any easier than a camel can pass through the eye of a needle.

Native ways of thinking tend to be about the community and past and future generations, and are therefore too big to fit into non native ways of thinking which tends to be more about acheiving short term individual satisfaction. So people can't hold both world views at once. 

But in another way I don't think it's true that people are either native or nonnative . For example the Metis people are truely a mix of both. There are many people who have real influences from both cultures and world veiws and are niether purely European or purely Ndn - and I think you are one of them . Some of these people manage to integrate this and do something with it to make the world a better place. You could be one of those , but you need to start putting the long term health and survival of the culture and true cultural values ahead of your individual fanatsies and desires.

Why not work to reform the colonial European culture from within, into a culture that is more respectful of indigenous values? Why not adopt a long term goal to preserve these basic traditional values , morals and responsibilities , so that in over the next 400 years the influence of increasing mixing might lead to an improved American society ? Why not work to protect indigenous communities so they continue to have enough control of theior own cultures and resources to maintain a strong and vibrant culture.

I don't mean I think the best way to do this is by everyone wanting to directly paticipate in indigenous cultures. Or worse do shallow imitations of ceremonies - Sometimes the best support is just by learning and teaching others to stay out of the way.   

We all benifit from making sure indigenous peoples have what they need to maintain their cultures, and the knowledge and values of these cultures does have extremely positive influences on everyone it touches - often in very ordinary day to day transactions.

Eric

There are MANY people who have NDN blood in them that aren't fed. recognized

. 

It's a bit creepy the way you keep thinking it is all about blood even a very tiny amount of it- and you put so little importance on people living in a community which has retained it's family relationships , Native identity and culture.

When you repeatedly put so much emphasis on blood , it's like you are turning being an Ndn into a commodity like having a bottle of fine wine, or a gold ring.   

Eric

To each of your answers, you have pretty much showed that you're self-centered

No Eric, it is you who is sounding very self centered.

Eric

but it makes me know there's always going to be a handful of people like you for each tribe/nation, and those troublemakers are those I need to stay away from

I know you don't see this , but what you are saying is that Native people who have strongly retained theur culture and identity are trouble makers because they interfer with you redefining what an Ndn is to include predominantely non native people such as yourself. Your lack of respect for Native peoples authority to define themselves and their own people and communities , once again sounds like the way nonnative people think about things. You sound like yo are dismissing Ndns as non people or incompetant to control their own resources - which you have decided you want.

Your world veiw has repeatedly come across sounds as very self centered and non native to me.

This being the case, I really think you should look into some of the wrongs done to your European ancestors and see what sort of reimbursments or repatriations you might be entitled to on the basis of that part of your families heritage. Such claims would be a lot more realistic .

About the only thing I agree with you on is that many families who moved to a distant place don't recall much about grandparents and greatgrandparents, and unless everybody has stayed in the same community it can take an effort to learn about your family background. It's true some families hid their Native ancestry - but I honestly think that for every family that did this all the nieghbors gossiped and the nieghborhood children who heard bits of hushed stories often mistakenly passed these on as stories, but telling them as if the Ndn grandma was their own.   

What Earth is saying is real. If you don't know your Ndn relatives and grandparents you aren't Ndn . You may have some mixed blood and even some sensitivity so some parts of Native ways , but this just makes you a non native person with some Native influences. Who we are is much more about the communities we live in and the relationships we have, than being an individual in possesion of something- whether that is fine wine, gold or a tiny bit of ndn blood .

Just my opinion , but I hope this helps you get a bit of perspective and to understand what is being said here.

[redhawk45]

Your comment is the most down to earth comment, other than Nighthawk's.

You are right...but my mother and I does have to put a bee in the bonnet of those Alleghenny Lenape still hanging around - it's the least we can do.

But I do know what you're saying...and my mother and I will do anything we can so at least one tribe of our heritage does recognize us as relatives, and if not enroll us, at least bring them into their family and teach us.

Eric

Ok..I think I see what your going for Eric.  However, you do seem to miss the point of people's posts.  There's really good info in there, but you're not seeing it.  This post is written with the idea of respect towards you Eric, but there's some things you're gonna read here you probably won't like....the words aren't meant to attack you....i'm just being brutally honest so there's no confusion.  The major points will be written in all caps so if you miss anything in the post you can go back and check the parts written in all CAPS so that you can see the major points easily.

I'll just say this.  The route your choosing to be recognized as NDN is wrong.  You'll NEVER get what you want out of it.  You're trying to be "recognized" as "NDN" by sidestepping government laws and regulations, but the point your missing is THERE'S NO LAW THAT CAN "MAKE" YOU NDN.

It all starts with family, then community, then tribe/nation.  I hate to burst your bubble, but in your particular situation you're not gonna get any piece of paper that's gonna be your "proof of authenticity."  It's just not gonna happen.  

In your situation with the Alleghenny Lenape...the tribe you joined is not a tribe.  It's a fraudulent organization run formerly by a fraudulent chief.  Your weren't adopted...you paid your way in...in short.....YOU AND YOUR MOM GOT SCAMMED BY THE KINDS OF FRAUDS THIS BOARD FIGHTS TO STOP.

I feel for you....I can imagine it's a terrible feeling to be sucked in by these types...they tell you everything you want to hear to make you feel like you belong...then they take your money and time and leave you with nothing.  You said yourself that your mom was desperate to belong and be recognized by a tribe and that's why you became part of them.  THAT DESPERATION IS JUST WHAT THESE FRAUDULENT TRIBES PREY UPON.

I don't doubt that the Alleghenny Lenape existed in Ohio...I don't doubt that the descendants still exist there.  I believe you ....but somewhere along the line they gave up their community, their land, and their self-governance.  What's left are remnants.

When it comes to Federal Recognition some of the MAJOR criteria that has to be met before they even CONSIDER the application are:  1) The existence of a continuous community considered to be Allegheny Lenape from the time Ohio came into existence, 2)  A land base occupied by the Allegheny Lenape through that time, and 3)  A form of goverment practiced by the Allegeny Lenape in continuity.

All 3 of these major criteria simply disappeared for the Allegheny Lenape somewhere along the line.  For whatever reasons they gave up their community and their right to govern themselves and once that's gone....there's no possible way for them to EVER get Federal Recognition.

It seems you've been taught that the road to Federal Recognition lies in State Recognition.  That's completely false.  YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE STATE RECOGNITION FOR FEDERAL RECOGNITION.  That fantasy was most likely fed to you by the fraudulent chief who ran off with all the money or people that were taught by him.  That's what fraudulent tribes do.  They prey on your desperation and the LACK OF COMMON KNOWLEDGE about Federal Indian laws.  They keep their money making machine going off the backs of people like you and your mom and just before the money dries up....they take off....

In fact, I'd make a strong guess that your fraudulent chief KNEW that he was never gonna be considered a real tribe......but he had to give you something to work for....a mission in your life so that you'd keep following him and give up your time and money working for him.

So....with all honesty.....for your own sake and sanity as well as your sick mother....quit following the fantasy given to you by a fraud.  You're a victim of a scam....don't become the perpetrator of that same scam.

I'm not saying all this to destroy your spirit or your pride in your heritage.  I'm only being honest with you.  If you really want to honor your heritage then it goes just like I said before.....through family, then community, then tribe/nation.  Enrollment doesn't make you Indian...how you live your life does.  But as we've all been saying...you've got a lot to learn....you've not really pinned down for yourself where your heritage really comes from.  Start there....when that's figured out go and visit the existing communities that exist.  You may have relatives there....be honest about your story....let people know that your family has denied your heritage through several generations and when you and your mom learned of it you wanted to reconnect.  It may even mean moving closer or into that community (and i'm talking a community that has existed in continuity....not one that just popped up like the URB).  Learn the language....that's probably the most important.  If you work hard enough with a good spirit, community members will recognize that and help you....they may take you into their extended family to ensure you stay on a good path.....just realize.....just about every Indian community has been burned by taking in outsiders who stick around...learn a few things and take it and leave and begin their own fraudulent tribe/shamanism practice....so it's gonna take A LOOOOONNNNNG time to truly gain people's trust.  Just stay honest....don't try too hard or try to prove yourself too much and go into it WILLING TO COMMIT TO THAT COMMUNITY FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE if you find your place there.  When I say commit...I don't mean give money or work...you gotta give your heart.

One more thing I'll address before I'm done is the idea you have about tribes east/west of the Mississippi.  Don't get caught up in that.  Even full-blood Indians get that wrong.  My tribe is well east of the Mississippi...we are federally recognized, our community has never been moved, our language exists and is spoken fluently by well over half the community with efforts to fully immerse our schools in it to try and keep it that way or improve it.  I have two very close friends who are not enrolled with federally recognized tribes, but they've never been questioned about their heritage.  They live it every day as well as their families.  For one friend his father is full-blooded, but his tribe is matrilineal...they trace their descendants through the women so if you're mom is not part of that tribe...regardless of your dad's blood quantum....you can't be enrolled.  So he's never gonna be enrolled there...but it's simply not an issue for him....he was raised with his culture....he knows his community and they accept him.  For the other....her father had disagreements with the tribe's government long before they were born so he chose not to enroll his children....she was still brought up inside her culture and community....she's still considered part of them.  Neither one of them has the paperwork, but they are both considered NDN.

Your heritage is a part of you.....it can't be proven, it can't be bought.  You can only live it and accept it.  If you choose to honor it just remember....it's not easy.

Superdog

[Superdog]

Ya know...you keep saying I'm non-native, but from your description of non-native it pretty much tells me that YOU think that those who are not Federally Recognized are all white.  That is pretty low to consider that, especially when there are tribes out there who should have been Federally Recognized in the beginning are battling for that recognition.  You're pretty much calling those tribes non-native, even when they're genuine tribes that have a culture/family/land.

Actually you kind of missed the parts where he said he has family that's not enrolled, but they're still Native.  But on to the real part.

I'm pulling this quote out as an example of why your arguments tend to not hold water.  What you have written here is a generalization (like the East/West thing...another generalization).  If you want this quote to be considered seriously as part of this conversation you'll really have to back it up with a clear example of what you mean.  I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's hard to pin down exactly what you're talking about in this quote and what it has to do with you.


And continuing on with what I was talking about earlier.....never forget honesty.  You're saying I AM NDN AND I'M PROUD OF THAT AND THAT'S ENOUGH FOR ME.  But pride is not knowledge or wisdom.  You've got to completely honest to yourself about the stage you're at when it comes to these things.  You've admitted that you're just learning, but when someone disagrees with you.....you correct them.  To me, that says that you're fooling yourself.....I think it says the same to others.  The honest thing is to let the world know that you're just beginning and then behave like a beginner would.  Someone willing to learn doesn't argue that's he's right....he sits and listens.  So people disagree with you...sometimes they're rough with you about it....but can you blame them when they come across you....saying you want to learn, but only responding to negativity so you can prove your right.  You're preaching to people who've known all their lives where their heritage and culture lies, but you're preaching to them as if you know more.  That's pride messin' with ya.  Your first lesson in your culture should be to humble yourself before all the creation that's around....including living beings.  Toss the pride....it only hurts YOU in the end.

As for the pow-wow you're gonna dance in....again....not Lenape culture....paying your way into the dances....still not Lenape.  They're real traditions for sure....but not Lenape traditions.  Once again you've been taught badly and then preach to those who know better like THEY'RE wrong for saying something.  Definitely not the attitude of someone willing to learn.

[Defend the Sacred]

If I had African blood in me, I'd be proud of that, but I don't have African in me. 

Actually, all humans have African blood in us. You quite possibly have more African blood than NDN.

However, the point that people have made over and over, and I don't see why you find it so odd, is that this is about culture, language, tradition, way of life. If you weren't raised in the culture, or weren't taken in by traditional people and assimilated into the culture in a traditional and good way, over the long haul, you're not of that culture. I don't see why that is so difficult to grasp.

I know you don't want to hear this, but I see a big sense of entitlement in your long and demanding posts here. What's wrong with being who you are? Why come to a board that is dedicated to protecting people from fraud and argue that distant ancestry means you're the same as those who grew up in a particular culture that you are not part of? I think you have a romanticized idea of what it means to be NDN. You don't come off as NDN, you come off as a white person who wants the exotic, romanticized parts of the culture without the day to day realities. You probably are unaware of the day to day realities of life as an actual NDN person - what it's like to be a person without white skin privilege living in a racist country;  what it's like to grow up in essentially another country even though on "American" soil; what it's like to live in a culture that is very different from that of mainstream Amerika.

You are acting very odd, and not like a traditional person at all. If you do not understand what I mean by this, well, that again reinforces the point that you seem to be very unclear on what the NDN folks here are saying. People here don't have to "research" their origins or culture;  they already know who they are because it's how they were raised. If you want to be an ally or new participant in NDN cultures... well, I'd respectfully suggest calming down and listening rather than demanding.

I think people have tried to be polite to you, but you have been very pushy and strange and disrespectful. Your behaviour is showing you don't belong to the very communities to which you seem so desperately to want to belong. And by acting this way, you are probably pushing away the very people who could have been your allies and teachers in this matter.

Just my three cents.

[Moma_porcupine]

Redhawk

All I can say is that I know you and a selected few doesn't want to accept those who have NDN within them, doesn't want to have nothing to do with them.

redhawk45

Ya know...you keep saying I'm non-native, but from your description of non-native it pretty much tells me that YOU think that those who are not Federally Recognized are all white.  That is pretty low to consider that, especially when there are tribes out there who should have been Federally Recognized in the beginning are battling for that recognition.  You're pretty much calling those tribes non-native, even when they're genuine tribes that have a culture/family/land.

As you have quoted me and seem to be replying to what I said  , I am assuming you are responding to something you imagine i said, except I never said anything like that and I don't think that at all.

I said that in my opinion,  people who have a small amount of Native blood who's families have lived outside of a Native community for more than 2 generations are predominantly non native with some Native influence, and that these people have responsibilities that come from both sides of their heritage.

If such a person reconnected and participated in the day to day life of a culturally strong Native community it's possible that influence would get stronger.   

Superdog

Actually you kind of missed the parts where he said he has family that's not enrolled, but they're still Native. 

Superdog, I think you are thinking of Nighthawk , and what you quoted was what Redhawk said in response to me .

It seems the perspective I'm speaking from is creating some confusion. I've never claimed to be Ndn. As I am posting anonymously I am not comfortable to give much information about myself , and i can see that might be a bit confusing as to what my position is.

I've previously explained that I'm familiar with the territory on both sides of the fence and I see people getting hurt on both sides and I hope communication can help improve things.

I want to say I don't mean to be harsh, and i actually have a lot of sympathy for people who fall through the cracks .

But there is unrealistic assumptions of entitlement that lead to behavior which from what I have seen , only widens these cracks and makes them deeper, and it often isn't even the person who did the deeds that  suffers the consquences of the resentment and mistrust they created. It is all too often the next person who comes along wanting or maybe really needing to reconnect with this part of their background.

When I point out what this behavior is, I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, and I don't think anyone else here does either, but after you talk to 20 or 120 people with attitudes of entitlement, who just don't hear what is being said, some of the sympathy starts to get worn a bit thin. I imagine many Native people like Earth have had to talk to hundreds of people like this,  and notalways  because they decide to join some on line discussion, but because these people are constantly intruding into sensitive areas of their lives.

These attitudes and behaviors not only hurt the Nations people are wanting / needing to connect with , but they also set up mistrust which will hurt other less presumptuous PODIAs who are needing this connection to feel whole. 

And what I am saying here is not just directed at Eric, but at the many other people in similar situations.

[redhawk45]

So, you're pretty much saying that us who does have NDN ancestry should just go off to a corner and be forgotten?  Gee, if I took those ideals, I would get no where in life.  Life is a battle, I have learned, having to battle for every single thing that means something to me, to my mother, to my family.  You say we're non-native because we're not enrolled with a federally recognized tribe (generally).  As you pointed out, there are loads of others just like my mother and I who are doing as much battling, maybe more.  The most satisfaction I would get is some one on a rez would point to me and say "he is my relative"...that'd be the MOST recognition I would love to have.  If someone said that, I'd give up fighting for enrollment, for that guy or girl on the rez recognized me, respects me for who I am, and is willing to share what they know with me (that is, a tribe/nation I have a blood connection with).

Anyhow, I'm pretty much done discussing things with you.  If anything, I know who on this site I can listen to.

Eric

Redhawk

All I can say is that I know you and a selected few doesn't want to accept those who have NDN within them, doesn't want to have nothing to do with them.

redhawk45

Ya know...you keep saying I'm non-native, but from your description of non-native it pretty much tells me that YOU think that those who are not Federally Recognized are all white.  That is pretty low to consider that, especially when there are tribes out there who should have been Federally Recognized in the beginning are battling for that recognition.  You're pretty much calling those tribes non-native, even when they're genuine tribes that have a culture/family/land.

As you have quoted me and seem to be replying to what I said  , I am assuming you are responding to something you imagine i said, except I never said anything like that and I don't think that at all.

I said that in my opinion,  people who have a small amount of Native blood who's families have lived outside of a Native community for more than 2 generations are predominantly non native with some Native influence, and that these people have responsibilities that come from both sides of their heritage.

If such a person reconnected and participated in the day to day life of a culturally strong Native community it's possible that influence would get stronger.   

Superdog

Actually you kind of missed the parts where he said he has family that's not enrolled, but they're still Native. 

Superdog, I think you are thinking of Nighthawk , and what you quoted was what Redhawk said in response to me .

It seems the perspective I'm speaking from is creating some confusion. I've never claimed to be Ndn. As I am posting anonymously I am not comfortable to give much information about myself , and i can see that might be a bit confusing as to what my position is.

I've previously explained that I'm familiar with the territory on both sides of the fence and I see people getting hurt on both sides and I hope communication can help improve things.

I want to say I don't mean to be harsh, and i actually have a lot of sympathy for people who fall through the cracks .

But there is unrealistic assumptions of entitlement that lead to behavior which from what I have seen , only widens these cracks and makes them deeper, and it often isn't even the person who did the deeds that  suffers the consquences of the resentment and mistrust they created. It is all too often the next person who comes along wanting or maybe really needing to reconnect with this part of their background.

When I point out what this behavior is, I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, and I don't think anyone else here does either, but after you talk to 20 or 120 people with attitudes of entitlement, who just don't hear what is being said, some of the sympathy starts to get worn a bit thin. I imagine many Native people like Earth have had to talk to hundreds of people like this,  and notalways  because they decide to join some on line discussion, but because these people are constantly intruding into sensitive areas of their lives.

These attitudes and behaviors not only hurt the Nations people are wanting / needing to connect with , but they also set up mistrust which will hurt other less presumptuous PODIAs who are needing this connection to feel whole. 

And what I am saying here is not just directed at Eric, but at the many other people in similar situations.

[redhawk45]

I'm not saying I'm wrong about a lot of things you're saying, but I don't like where Mama-Porcupine is going.  She is disrespecting all people who does know their family (even through geneology) (and I am not just focusing on me) by calling them non-native.

I AM willing to learn, and for all that's worth, the only two people I can talk to on this thing that I can learn from is nighthawk and you!  I don't like other's opinions, nor do they like mine, so it's a stand-off.

If you want to discuss more, PM me.  Perhaps you can help me more in PM than getting other people more angered, and me more frustrated.

Eric

Ya know...you keep saying I'm non-native, but from your description of non-native it pretty much tells me that YOU think that those who are not Federally Recognized are all white.  That is pretty low to consider that, especially when there are tribes out there who should have been Federally Recognized in the beginning are battling for that recognition.  You're pretty much calling those tribes non-native, even when they're genuine tribes that have a culture/family/land.

Actually you kind of missed the parts where he said he has family that's not enrolled, but they're still Native.  But on to the real part.

I'm pulling this quote out as an example of why your arguments tend to not hold water.  What you have written here is a generalization (like the East/West thing...another generalization).  If you want this quote to be considered seriously as part of this conversation you'll really have to back it up with a clear example of what you mean.  I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's hard to pin down exactly what you're talking about in this quote and what it has to do with you.


And continuing on with what I was talking about earlier.....never forget honesty.  You're saying I AM NDN AND I'M PROUD OF THAT AND THAT'S ENOUGH FOR ME.  But pride is not knowledge or wisdom.  You've got to completely honest to yourself about the stage you're at when it comes to these things.  You've admitted that you're just learning, but when someone disagrees with you.....you correct them.  To me, that says that you're fooling yourself.....I think it says the same to others.  The honest thing is to let the world know that you're just beginning and then behave like a beginner would.  Someone willing to learn doesn't argue that's he's right....he sits and listens.  So people disagree with you...sometimes they're rough with you about it....but can you blame them when they come across you....saying you want to learn, but only responding to negativity so you can prove your right.  You're preaching to people who've known all their lives where their heritage and culture lies, but you're preaching to them as if you know more.  That's pride messin' with ya.  Your first lesson in your culture should be to humble yourself before all the creation that's around....including living beings.  Toss the pride....it only hurts YOU in the end.

As for the pow-wow you're gonna dance in....again....not Lenape culture....paying your way into the dances....still not Lenape.  They're real traditions for sure....but not Lenape traditions.  Once again you've been taught badly and then preach to those who know better like THEY'RE wrong for saying something.  Definitely not the attitude of someone willing to learn.

[earthw7]

Boy!

All I can say is if you live among your people, know your culture, language, land and way of life then you are Native.
If your relatives acknowledge you that is what makes you native.

[wolfhawaii]

Eric, if in fact there are still Alleghany Lenape around, why would they need an upstart lad like you to organize them? Wouldn't they do that on their own? Or are you their ndn messiah? I was going to advise you but others here have given you good advise and you don't listen too good....you are fortunate that they are trying to help you in spite of your attitude. Maybe you should explore some of your feelings with a professional listener.

[Defend the Sacred]

*sigh* this is what I get for not reading every thread here. For those who want some background on Eric, see this thread: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1576.0

[frederica]

Yes, that's the bottom line.