Robert Morning Sky & The Terra Papers

[kshaund]

I came across some postings here (mostly by educatedindian) disclaiming numerous things about Robert, not the least of which is his authenticity, especially as a Hopi/Apache Indian.

I am writing to clarify some things, and hopefully get a few readers to reconsider these. I worked and lived with Robert for more than two years in Phoenix (I'm Canadian and left my family to do research with him). He is 100 percent native american so why anyone would discount that is ridiculous - have you ever seen him?

And who is to know what the proper native dress is? He has several costumes (and some authentic native dress, totally different than costumes) depending on where he's performing/lecturing. And that's a basis for fraud?

He has never claimed anything that he is not and has gone to great lengths (as has been point out) to preface his work with "I'm a nobody". He has also spoken often to us that the Hopi will deny his existance on purpose because he broke away from their tradition AND IS TEACHING WHITE PEOPLE, but has not, did not, talk about Hopi prophecy first - he ALWAYS waited until someone else did and then would follow it up. That's why he was denied - how many authentic Indians are in the white world teaching? And you cannot with any remote sincerity even have Robert Ghost Wolf come to mind - he's not Indian even 1 percent.

His point about the Blue Star and Katsina should be well made at how easy it is for something to be taken and used later as if it had history. That he caught this error of other people was pointed out by him, not made by him.

Otherwise, I do not know what research you have done, if you have ever met him personally or even better spoken to him - but I suspect you have not because otherwise you would likely have had a much different opinion.

Finally, regarding comments about Karen Degenhart - in Robert's work many people would jump on his bandwagon with their own agenda (and dysfunctions). Ms. Degenhart was one of them that Robert never associated with in any way. She sent letters after letters to him that were nonsense and not considered at all. That she associated with Robert, does not mean it was mutual!

I am happy to answer any questions to clarify this - and would also like to know what all these conclusions (he's a fraud) are really based on!

k.

[Barnaby_McEwan]

He is 100 percent native american so why anyone would discount that is ridiculous - have you ever seen him?

No one said otherwise. The question is whether he is Hopi or Apache as he claims.

And who is to know what the proper native dress is?

In his case, Hopi and Apache people will probably have a pretty good idea, don't you think?

He has also spoken often to us that the Hopi will deny his existance on purpose because he broke away from their tradition AND IS TEACHING WHITE PEOPLE...

.. a load of nonsense and dressing it up as somehow rooted in Indian beliefs.

I've got some mind-blowing news for you: the Flying Spaghetti Monster is actually the prophesied Second Coming of Jesus. The church hierarchy would deny it, of course, but that's only because they're stuck in fear-consciousness and cling to their power. They can't handle the powerful new realities now emerging but the truth will blah blah blah...

And you cannot with any remote sincerity even have Robert Ghost Wolf come to mind - he's not Indian even 1 percent.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there, but Indian ancestry does not guarantee truthfulness.

His point about the Blue Star and Katsina should be well made at how easy it is for something to be taken and used later as if it had history. That he caught this error of other people was pointed out by him, not made by him.

Er, hello? He made it up! Pointing out that someone else elaborated on his fantasy still means it's not real!

If you have ever met him personally or even better spoken to him - but I suspect you have not because otherwise you would likely have had a much different opinion.

Not everyone is as suggestible as you seem to be. Perhaps if I met him my opinion of him would be lower still.

...and would also like to know what all these conclusions (he's a fraud) are really based on!

It's all there in the archived thread on him, which you seem to have read. It's not anyone else's problem if you don't understand what's written there.

[kshaund]

My apologies - I thought this website might pertain to intelligent discussions and researchers - it seems it is a branch of the skeptics society, the ones who deny and debunk at the cost of all else, especially the possiblity of truths lest they actually be wrong.

I am not adept at using all the fancy return quoting here (and don't plan to be here long enough to learn based on this reply), so will answer what you posted generally:

My reference to Ghost Wolf was because of earlier claims in the posts (yes I read them). I was trying to generally show that there are many errors in the thinking in this thread, not just one.

Since you admit you haven't even met him, how would you claim to know he is not Apache? Oh, sorry, I referred back to my opening statement and got the answer myself.
I have been to Apache Mountain with Robert, a place where the Apache have kept watch for hundreds of years and do to this day within vew of the Mexican border on a field trip, have you? I have seen Robert run 20 miles without losing his breath in the heat of the desert, something Apache's are VERY well known for, have you? I lived with Robert's warrior personality in thought and action for over two years. Have you even heard him speak on audio or video? These are just a few easy examples of real experiences (much closer to the truth than armchair critics like yourself). At least I made the effort to spend time with him to determine for myself if he is authentic or not - you admittedly have not yet passed judgment.

I've also met and spent time with many other researchers (Colin Andrews for one) because I didn't want to rely on the 'word' of others, like you do, I wanted to find out for myself. Have you studied Apache and Hopi names so much you know everything? Have you studied Hopi and Apache dress so you know everything? I saw him dress well over 50 times in virtually the same dress he always wore when presenting - not dressed as he would be when performing in his dance troupe. Perhaps you aren't even looking at a photo of him - haha - wouldn't that be ironic! I have photos but probably would be called fake as will this personal testimony, no doubtedly. Otherwise my post would have been answered with some common respect and courtesty, at the very least. I care not what anyone believes and I care not if they change their mind. I only care whether or not people have, at the least, an open mind.

And the Hopi elders (of whom absolutely know all about Robert! I have seen them myselves!) will absolutely deny they know him - and Robert has also always said every time the topic of Hopi prophecy was brought up that he does NOT speak for the Hopi! He ALWAYS said that - he spoke only of a few Hopi prophecies that were already published somewhere and gave his interpretation. He also said there were other prophecies he would NOT speak of because he had yet to find that they had somehow been published and were now known.

And if you think there isn't politics among the Hopi or Apache or any group on earth, that is an error. Just in case someone thinks they're all perfect, they're not. But I have yet to hear or see of any other Indian speaking about this stuff, anywhere. The Hopi elders that speak on occasion aren't saying much except the same thing over and over without all the history and ANY data to support it.

You call what I say from personal experience nonsense - how is that supposed to give you any credibility?

In the past month I had decided to become available on the internet because of my experience with Robert and his work and only signed in here to (I thought) add to the discussion based on more than assertations full of fluff.

Regards and best wishes to you who chose to judge without being totally informed.

[educatedindian]

1. My apologies - I thought this website might pertain to intelligent discussions and researchers

2. - it seems it is a branch of the skeptics society, the ones who deny and debunk at the cost of all else, especially the possiblity of truths lest they actually be wrong.

3. Since you admit you haven't even met him, how would you claim to know he is not Apache?

4. Oh, sorry, I referred back to my opening statement and got the answer myself.

5. I have been to Apache Mountain with Robert, a place where the Apache have kept watch for hundreds of years and do to this day within vew of the Mexican border on a field trip, have you?

6. I have seen Robert run 20 miles without losing his breath in the heat of the desert, something Apache's are VERY well known for, have you?

7. I lived with Robert's warrior personality in thought and action for over two years.

8. I've also met and spent time with many other researchers (Colin Andrews for one) because I didn't want to rely on the 'word' of others, like you do, I wanted to find out for myself.

9. Have you studied Apache and Hopi names so much you know everything? Have you studied Hopi and Apache dress so you know everything?
 
10. ....Otherwise my post would have been answered with some common respect and courtesty, at the very least.

13. I care not what anyone believes and I care not if they change their mind. I only care whether or not people have, at the least, an open mind.

12. And the Hopi elders (of whom absolutely know all about Robert! I have seen them myselves!) will absolutely deny they know him - and Robert has also always said every time the topic of Hopi prophecy was brought up that he does NOT speak for the Hopi! He ALWAYS said that - he spoke only of a few Hopi prophecies that were already published somewhere and gave his interpretation. He also said there were other prophecies he would NOT speak of because he had yet to find that they had somehow been published and were now known.

And if you think there isn't politics among the Hopi or Apache or any group on earth, that is an error. Just in case someone thinks they're all perfect, they're not. But I have yet to hear or see of any other Indian speaking about this stuff, anywhere. The Hopi elders that speak on occasion aren't saying much except the same thing over and over without all the history and ANY data to support it.....

Regards and best wishes to you who chose to judge without being totally informed.

In this case, that means you send best wishes to yourself. You are not very well informed at all, and base what you know of this man largely on your own wishful thinking about Hopis and Apaches.

I hope you don't mind my habit of adding numbers to your post so it'll be clearer what I'm answering.

1. You claim to be making an apology, then follow it up with insults and pretensions of being superior. Not the best start. Grow up. We will not waste our time on you and your ego.

2. Obviously you were wrong. Why you confused an American Indian activist site with the Skeptics is something you should ask yourself.

Incidentally, the Skeptics certainly are far more adept at fact finding than you;ve shown yourself to be.

3. Obviously it never occurs to you there are Apaches at this site, as well as several hundred other Indians who know far more than you do. Your condescension borders on racism.

4. There's that condescending racism again.

5. Since Apache Mountain is a camping site off the rezzes, how would that prove anything? You don't even realize the mountain is nowhere near Mexico. It's far closer to Albuquerque.

All you've done proven you know very little about Apaches or Indians in general, except that you consider yourself superior and (wrongly) more knowledgeable than The Dumb Indians you look down on.

6. No, buddy. That's not the Apaches who are famous for that racist stereotype you peddle as "proof" that Morning Sky is Apache.

You're thinking of the Tarahumara of Mexico. And yes, I can't believe I have to tell you this. But Apaches do get out of breath from running. The longest run I've ever done in my life is the two mile run for the US Army in boot camp. And yeah, I was out of breath, just like any other human being would be, outside of highly trained athletes of any race, creed, or color.

So apparently your racism is not limited to Indians, but to stereotypes of other races as well.

7. Unless he's a veteran or a fighter for his (alleged) people, he's no warrior. That's your stereotypes speaking again.

The second one we know is not true. He's never done a thing for Apaches and Hopis except harm, selling silly ideas about Indians to naive outsiders engaged in wishful thinking like yourself.

8. You seriously think that name dropping one of the crop circle people will impress us?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22colin+andrews&btnG=Search

9. I guarantee every Indian in here knows far more about Indian names than your pompous, ignorant, racist self.

10. Perhaps no one answered you because they regard you as hopeless and beyond reason.

11. Then why are you here? Oh, that's right. In your racism, you believe you know much more than any Dumb Indian ever could.

12. There it is again, your assertion that you know far more than any dumb Indian could. Not only that, you claim to know each and every Hopi elder. Quite a feat. But not something any Indian anywhere would fall for. Esp not from someone whose gone to elaborate and futile means to set himself up as the Decider Of What Indians Know, but has only opened himself up to mockery for knowing so little.

It's interesting to see the caliber of people taken in by Morning Sky.

[educatedindian]

Here's Kshaund, one of the UFO people.

http://ufocasebook.conforums.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&username=kshaund

Apparently Morning Sky is now missing, according to her.
http://ufocasebook.conforums.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=books&num=1211521176&start=0#1211521176

Other favorite sites of hers, Above Top Secret and Below Top Secret.

The older NAFPS members might remember that we once had a competition for Looniest Nuage Site. These sites of hers give the ones we found a run for the money.

In all seriousness, I'd like for kshaund to give her answer as to what she thinks happened to Morning Sky.

[kshaund]

          ***My apologies were for expecting more courtesy at the outset. [Insult removed] [More insults]

          ***Where's your facts?  How was I wrong when I saw posts inquiring about the Terra Papers here and offered to help? That was why I came, not to prove a thing, it was from wylie (I think) - they were inquiring and no one else had any answers. You've only provided rebuttals, nothing of substance.

          ***[Insults] [More insults][Yet more] Your point? [Still more insults]

           ***What I know is I was in mountains told by Robert that apaches were in and around and had been for hundreds of years and we were within view of Mexico. If I erred in the name, so be it - was 10 years ago and I live in Canada and do not remember all the proper names - where I was was real, the name not exact. I've never called indians dumb, and again (first post did so too) are taking what I say and twisting it all around [Insults and lies]. I've met dumb people in all colors, but dumb is better than [Insults]

          ***[Insults] [Insults] [Insults]

         ***Amazingly broad, sweeping statement summing me up [lies] [Insults] [Insults] Get the point?

          ***No, that's MY experience of living with him and his family for more than two years and saw his decisiveness and drive - that's what I call a warrior (semantics I suppose). But in my life I'd never before, or since, met anyone else that did as he did - that's my experience. That you condemn me somehow for this perspective while making accusations about me? How is that constructive which was my point in the first paragraph of this point made in response to rudeness in the FIRST place on this site.
          ***I have zero experience with military so apologies (sincerely) if this was at first taken as any kind of superior type of warrior over someone in a military battle - I did not intend to equate them -

          ***I never said he did anything for anyone (but me). I don't speak for him. I speak for myself. I said he always clarified he did not speak for the Hopi - and again whatever the "outsiders"? have experienced [Insults] [Insults]

          ***[Insuls] was only trying to tell you he isn't the only person doing research I spent time with and I don't [Insults], I've been out there searching for real answers - I want to learn from anyone who know more than I do. And based on answers thus far, [Insults]. I maintain an open mind. [Insults]

          ***"In here" I suppose means this website - [Cliched insults] so you can say whatever you like about every Indian in here - doesn't matter to me, like I said, was just offering my experience. That it's not welcome has been made VERY clear! Guess any Indian that talks outside Indians really IS an outcast, just as Robert said ...

          ***Yeah, [Insults] [Insults]

          ***[lies] [Insults] I explained why I was here, [Insults]. [lies].

          ***Nope - I never said I knew each and every Hopi Elder, again twisting what I said. What I said was I saw and heard the Hopi elders - I don't know how many there are in total, all I know are the ones I saw speaking publicly the same time Robert was - or were they lying too?

          ***Thank goodness [Insults] [Insults] [Insults]

          ***Obviously it was a mistake coming here - you guys aren't skeptics, [Insults and lies] I am happy to withdraw and spare you any more anguish [Insults and lies].

          ***And finally, again, putting words into my mouth - I never said Robert is missing - ! I said I haven't been able to reach him in the past few years as he's moved - you really should chose your words carefully - there's a big difference between missing and moved. Since language is all we have, [Insults]

           ***Best Wishes [Numerous insults] Oh well - Robert talked about [Insults and lies].

          ****Knowledge is for all people! [Final Insults]

[educatedindian]

1. You've only provided rebuttals, nothing of substance.

2. What I know is I was in mountains told by Robert that apaches were in and around and had been for hundreds of years and we were within view of Mexico. If I erred in the name, so be it - was 10 years ago and I live in Canada and do not remember all the proper names - where I was was real, the name not exact. I've never called indians dumb
         
3. No, that's MY experience of living with him and his family for more than two years and saw his decisiveness and drive - that's what I call a warrior (semantics I suppose). But in my life I'd never before, or since, met anyone else that did as he did - that's my experience.....I have zero experience with military so apologies (sincerely) if this was at first taken as any kind of superior type of warrior over someone in a military battle - I did not intend to equate them -

4. I never said he did anything for anyone (but me). I don't speak for him. I speak for myself. I said he always clarified he did not speak for the Hopi

5. In here" I suppose means this website - [Cliched insults] so you can say whatever you like about every Indian in here - doesn't matter to me, like I said, was just offering my experience. That it's not welcome has been made VERY clear! Guess any Indian that talks outside Indians really IS an outcast, just as Robert said ...

6. Nope - I never said I knew each and every Hopi Elder, again twisting what I said. What I said was I saw and heard the Hopi elders - I don't know how many there are in total, all I know are the ones I saw speaking publicly the same time Robert was - or were they lying too?

7. I never said Robert is missing - ! I said I haven't been able to reach him in the past few years as he's moved - you really should chose your words carefully - there's a big difference between missing and moved.

8. Knowledge is for all people!

All that anger and pompousness is why so few people are willing to talk to you. Took quite a while to clear away all the insults, but there actually are a few questions buried in all the displays of ego and misplaced self righteousness.

Hopefully your ego is large enough to come back and take one final look.

1. It's pretty obvious, you loving playing with semantics for its own sake. So points like this aren't worth answering.

2. You say you were taken to a sacred site of Apaches, but don't even remember where, or its name?

For someone desperate to know what you think are Big Indian Secrets Told To You By An Alleged Apache Man Who Knows All The Answers, you are amazingly casual with what you claimed to "learn."

And yes, every time you state "I Will Teach You Indians The TRUTH About Indians", you are calling us Dumb Indians. 

3. Oh brother, "decisiveness and drive" make someone a "warrior"? To some people that would make awful types like Donald Trump a "warrior".

No, being willing to sacrifice yourself for your people makes someone a warrior.

4. If he did nothing for his (alleged) people, then he is no warrior. In fact since he only seems to have cared for himself and his small circle, that makes him the opposite of a warrior.

5. That's typical Nuage claims. "Those evil Indians want to keep the truth from us."

6. Since you've shown repeatedly you know very little about Indians, there's a good chance you were not speaking to Hopis, and esp not elders, at all.

After all, you fell for Morning Sky's claim of being one, when there's no evidence except his less than truthful words.

7. Actually the fault here is your own misinterpretation. You seem to think missing means "met with foul play."

8. Actually, it isn't. Just like children shouldn't have access to bomb making manuals or know how to freebase cocaine, some knowledge is not meant for certain people.

Obviously, even the knowledge that you threw away several years of your life, even abandoning your family, for someone of extremely dubious character and claims, is something you can't deal with.

A mental health professional is what you need. I mean that not as an insult but as serious advice.

Think about it. Sane people don't abandon their families just because someone dressed like Liberace claims to be an Indian and see UFOs.

[Kevin]

Geez kshaund, you gave it all away with the following ludicrous assertion: "He has also spoken often to us that the Hopi will deny his existance on purpose because he broke away from their tradition AND IS TEACHING WHITE PEOPLE"
The fact that you would suscribe to such an inherently racist comment aptly demonstrates how much of a quack and fake this guy is. How daft can one be? Like P.T. Barnum said, a sucker is born every minute. His name should be Robert Morning Toilet Paper for spreading so much sh**.

[Defend the Sacred]

6. Nope - I never said I knew each and every Hopi Elder, again twisting what I said. What I said was I saw and heard the Hopi elders - I don't know how many there are in total, all I know are the ones I saw speaking publicly the same time Robert was - or were they lying too?

6. Since you've shown repeatedly you know very little about Indians, there's a good chance you were not speaking to Hopis, and esp not elders, at all.

And let me guess, all the "Hopi" spoke to each other in English? Or maybe Spanish?

[earthw7]

Ok so all us Indian don't know nothing
Boy and you wonder why we want to keep these people out.

[Superdog]

I have been to Apache Mountain with Robert, a place where the Apache have kept watch for hundreds of years and do to this day within vew of the Mexican border on a field trip, have you? I have seen Robert run 20 miles without losing his breath in the heat of the desert, something Apache's are VERY well known for, have you? I lived with Robert's warrior personality in thought and action for over two years. Have you even heard him speak on audio or video? These are just a few easy examples of real experiences (much closer to the truth than armchair critics like yourself). At least I made the effort to spend time with him to determine for myself if he is authentic or not - you admittedly have not yet passed judgment.
------end quote----------------

Not commenting on Robert at all.  Just on the audaciousnous of the poster.  The kind of behavior and attitude I see in this post are typical of a small percentage of people in the research field.  You're very young in your research.  You may rethink this in the future and regret having these words scarring the real legitimate work you may be doing. 

-----------------Continue quote from kshaund:-------

I've also met and spent time with many other researchers (Colin Andrews for one) because I didn't want to rely on the 'word' of others, like you do, I wanted to find out for myself. Have you studied Apache and Hopi names so much you know everything? Have you studied Hopi and Apache dress so you know everything? I saw him dress well over 50 times in virtually the same dress he always wore when presenting - not dressed as he would be when performing in his dance troupe. Perhaps you aren't even looking at a photo of him - haha - wouldn't that be ironic! I have photos but probably would be called fake as will this personal testimony, no doubtedly. Otherwise my post would have been answered with some common respect and courtesty, at the very least. I care not what anyone believes and I care not if they change their mind. I only care whether or not people have, at the least, an open mind.

And the Hopi elders (of whom absolutely know all about Robert! I have seen them myselves!) will absolutely deny they know him - and Robert has also always said every time the topic of Hopi prophecy was brought up that he does NOT speak for the Hopi! He ALWAYS said that - he spoke only of a few Hopi prophecies that were already published somewhere and gave his interpretation. He also said there were other prophecies he would NOT speak of because he had yet to find that they had somehow been published and were now known.

And if you think there isn't politics among the Hopi or Apache or any group on earth, that is an error. Just in case someone thinks they're all perfect, they're not. But I have yet to hear or see of any other Indian speaking about this stuff, anywhere. The Hopi elders that speak on occasion aren't saying much except the same thing over and over without all the history and ANY data to support it.
--------------------end quote:--------------

All three of these paragraph seem to equate you as an "insider".  They are written as if you are a member of the Hopi and Apache communities and that you have enough knowledge of them to speak for them.  Very bad research.  You must accept your place.  If you don't live among Hopis or Apaches....there's no way you know the mind of their communities.  You have to be part of their community and show enough of yourself to be allowed into what they really think.  The thoughts from people in these communities (not just this board) coincide with the questions raised about Robert.  You can blame the board all you want, but these questions are being asked about Robert in Hopi and Apache communities.  This is just a public "outsider" forum to discuss it.  The bridge between the "inside" and the "outside" is facilitated here by insiders discussing issues with outsiders.  Kshaund your perspective is an outsider facilitating discussion about another outsider, but claiming inside knowlege.  That's the one leg your standing on in this discussion and it's getting shakier.  But the only way you could really know where you stand here is by involving yourself as a community member.  Not researching from one "guru".  Again....bad research. 

---------------Quote from kshaund:-----------------
You call what I say from personal experience nonsense - how is that supposed to give you any credibility?

In the past month I had decided to become available on the internet because of my experience with Robert and his work and only signed in here to (I thought) add to the discussion based on more than assertations full of fluff.

Regards and best wishes to you who chose to judge without being totally informed.

The last line could be said of you as well.  As I said...you may regret these words in your future.  You'll find out yourself dealing with self-made medicine men and prophets that your getting just what you paid for. 

Good luck in your future.  Wisdom comes from experience, good and bad.  Accepting it is the hard part, but to do otherwise is like banging your head against a wall expecting a different result every time you do it.  You're only hurting yourself in the end.

Superdog

[Ann]

I have good feelings about Morningsky...he appear to be a good man...i dont know him but that is how i feel.I have read he was threatned because of coming out with certain information.

[TRIBALMOONS@yahoo.com]

  There's a sucker born every minute and dammed if we haven't had 2 show up almost instantaneously!

[Ann]

Respect - The Key To Life by Dave Chief, Grandson of Red Dog, Crazy Horse's Band

Respect means no interruption.
Respect means no confrontation.
Respect means no accusation.
Respect means no "mocking,"
Especially, no mocking of elders.

Respect means no lies between us.
Respect means no betrayal of confidence.
Respect means no "ripping off."
Respect means no hoarding.

Respect means no "Lording it over" someone.
Respect means no ordering around.
Respect means no yelling in anger.
Respect means no bad language.
Respect means no name calling.
Respect means controlling yourself.

Respect is not a commodity.
Respect is a way of being.
Respect is in our chest and not in our hand.
Respect is for all life.

Respect is for every species in the world,
including all four races.
Respect is for all our relations.
Respect is focusing on and dealing in "issues"
and not "personalisms."
Respect is focusing on "what" is right
rather than "who" is right.

Respect means owning our own negativity
and not being a "Blame Shifter."
A "Blame Shifter" is one who projects or shifts
his own negativity onto someone else.
This is the process of bigotry, war, and genocide.

Respect is keeping all lines of communication open
with those who have a different opinion, and making
a sincere attempt to let them be heard and understood.

Respect means listening until everyone has been heard and understood, only then is there a possibility for "Balance and Harmony,"
The goal of Indian spirituality.

[debbieredbear]

please stop, Ann. This, what you posted, is one person's opinion. Do you have permission to repost it? Because you "feel" someone is ok, does not mean it is sio. R E A D what people say. Indian people are saying they think one way. If you are not Indian, take a breath and L I S T E N.