Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)

[Ganieda]

No, but if you write your own summary you'll have the pleasure of knowing it's your own work.

Thank you Mr. McEwan for your generosity.  *sigh*

[Ganieda]

Quote from: Sue on January 18, 2007, 01:52:52 pm
Who on earth told you that sleeping with our Pagan teachers is sometimes common?

Your response....

This is common knowledge. Due to the sexual predilections of its inventor, Gerald Gardner, many "Traditional" Wiccan ceremonies involve ritual nudity, blindfolding, binding, flagellation and sexual intercourse, do they not?

the question had to do with Pagan teachers, yet your answer refers only to ""Traditional" Wiccan"... and sleeping with our Pagan teachers is NOT common.

Common knowledge?  Perhaps.... kind of like the "common knowledge" that all Indians are spiritual or have the same beliefs? 

You seem to be implying that all atheists are pagans.

Well, I suppose they could be pagan, but they would not be considered Pagan as they have no belief in anything spiritual whatsoever. 

[Ganieda]

4Candles

"It most definitely not extremely common, in fact is so rare I have never heard of it!"
"There is no forum dedicated to the abused because there is no need for one."

Where have you been?  Never heard of it?  C'mon, what heap of sand do you have your head in? 

[Ganieda]

Mr. McEwan

"An' it harm none..."? By the way the "Wiccan Rede" is derived from the occultist Aleister Crowley's dictum "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law".   "Wouldn't it be simpler to cast a spell on me than deal with all that paperwork?"

There is also the belief that what you do to others will return to you threefold, (some say ninefold)...in either case it can be a strong deterent to those who take the "Wiccan Rede" lightly.  So spellcasting to cause harm is out! 

Lindaa

"Needless to say not all Witches practise the ridiculous "harm none" If you smack some of us, you will be smacked back." 

And that also goes for many other Pagans...perhaps threefold. 

[Ganieda]

"If it's not too personal a question, may I ask which culture/community/tradition?"

It is personal, however I will answer this.  I do not belong to any culture, community, or tradition.  "My people" lived in the peat bog areas of lower Europe, in the Netherland region.  Then, along came the Vikings, from the north, raping and pillaging...and adding to my illustrious ancestry.  In time, the Spanish did the same. 

So, who am I?  Well, I'm NOT Christian.  "My people" never were.  They were Pagans practising the age-old traditions of "shamanism" (just a word of communication here, not a definition), and animism.  Later, there was a veneer of Christianity, it was either that or die. 

Do I dare now to re-claim what was lost to me?  Yes.  And I find it in various places.  People move, they evolve, they change...and so do traditions.  But I try to seek them out and I try not to step on the traditions of others...although that can be difficult as there is a element of overlap. 

So I continue to honour the "creator-god", acknowledge the seven sacred directions, and believe that in EVERY thing there is spirit.  And I learn.
 

[Ganieda]

"What really confuses me is your calling Buddhism Pagan  "

I did not call Buddhism "Pagan".  Read it again.

[Defend the Sacred]

"If it's not too personal a question, may I ask which culture/community/tradition?"

It is personal, however I will answer this.  I do not belong to any culture, community, or tradition.  "My people" lived in the peat bog areas of lower Europe, in the Netherland region.

So, who am I?  Well, I'm NOT Christian.  "My people" never were.  They were Pagans practising the age-old traditions of "shamanism" (just a word of communication here, not a definition), and animism.  Later, there was a veneer of Christianity, it was either that or die. 

Do I dare now to re-claim what was lost to me?  Yes.  And I find it in various places.  People move, they evolve, they change...and so do traditions.  But I try to seek them out and I try not to step on the traditions of others...although that can be difficult as there is a element of overlap. 

So I continue to honour the "creator-god", acknowledge the seven sacred directions, and believe that in EVERY thing there is spirit.  And I learn.

Well, "the seven sacred directions" were not part of the Dutch people's traditions. You don't sound to me like you're "reclaiming" the traditions of your ancestors, you sound to me like an eclectic Neopagan who is appropriating misunderstood First Nations ideas. And you have racist stereotypes of Indians on your website. (See the links in my post above, which, while you're yellling at people, you have not addressed)

In other posts you're calling yourself a shaman. Are you now claiming to be indigenous to Siberia?

I'm not sure why you're here. You're being rather insulting to others in this thread, notably Barnaby who, despite your calling yourself a Pagan, seems to me to have done more research into the actual history of Neopaganism than you have.

[Ganieda]

Ganieda, I followed the link on your profile at the above link to your Yahoo360 page. Is this your blog?

Yes, those pages are on my blog.  Your search smacks somewhat of stalking for the purpose of digging up dirt.  If you have spare time on your hands, keep digging, you'll prolly find more.  Rememer tho, "he who slings dirt ends up with mud on his face".  I am a member here to share pertinent info when I can because I believe in the "cause"... not because I crave a need to be dis-credited. 

Now, I can only surmise that you picked out those pages because I used *Egads* that dreaded word "Shaman".  Well, nowhere on those pages do I refer to anything of Native American culture or spirituality so I see no problem with using it.  I am told, repeatedly, that Native Americans do NOT have Shamans, so I fail to see why, (unless I use it in the context of anything Native American), the word "Shaman" is such an issue. 

And since when did you become an expert on Dutch people's traditions?

As for Mr. McEwan, I'm quite sure he can speak for himself.... as he has done in the past. 

[Defend the Sacred]

Yes, those pages are on my blog.

Thank you for finally owning up to that.

Your search smacks somewhat of stalking for the purpose of digging up dirt.

You invited us to join your YahooGroup. I clicked on your yahoo profile and there was the link. Not a lot of detective work involved.

Well, nowhere on those pages do I refer to anything of Native American culture or spirituality so I see no problem with using it.  I am told, repeatedly, that Native Americans do NOT have Shamans, so I fail to see why, (unless I use it in the context of anything Native American), the word "Shaman" is such an issue.

Well, in case you haven't read your blog recently, here's some quotes:
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BIVw1xc1erMo2S9YeNs8nnVh58s158MYhRg-?cq=1&p=784

The Shaman held up his jewel encrusted medicine stick
a heady scent of opium permeated the air
the incessant beating of tom toms
pounded through my brain
...
your dreams are like the wild, restless buffalo on the plains
and you are still, a long long way from home
his snakeskin rattle flew through the air
...
the medicine man's eyes narrowed
as he fixed me with a benign grin
the tonic for your latent illness
is to start loving yourself
above all else
I started quivering deep down inside
...
I could tell he didn't belong to this earth
as his presence shimmered in psychadelic trance
raven hair bedecked his crown
...
the atmosphere was charged and electric
as he chanted in measured , native tongue
...
and as he silently began to vanish
behind a ritual haze
I heard a barely audible whisper
draw closer to Great Spirit
and Great Spirit will draw closer to you

Maybe it's only me that thinks that's a racist caricature of a Native American man, and a self-absorbed fantasy of what Indian ceremonies are about.

And another of your blog entries: http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BIVw1xc1erMo2S9YeNs8nnVh58s158MYhRg-?cq=1&p=537

Ancient One sat in the shade of his tree in front of his cave. Red People came to him and he said to Red People, "Tell me your vision."

And Red People answered, "The elders have told us to pray in this manner, and that manner, and it is important that we only pray as we have been taught for this has been handed down to us by the elders." "Hmmm," said Ancient One.
...
Ancient One thought this was very sad. He called Red People, Black People, Yellow People, and White People to him and said to them. "The ways taught to you by your Elders, and your Mothers and Fathers, and Teachers, and Books are sacred. It is good that you respect those ways, for they are the ways of your ancestors.

But the ancestors no longer walk on the Face of the Earth Mother. You have forgotten your own Vision. Your Vision is right for you but no one else. Now each of you must pray for your own Vision, and be still enough to see it, so you can follow the way of the heart. It is a hard way. It is a good way.

Again, maybe I'm the only one who sees that as a Nuage and racist misrepresentation of First Nations peoples and traditions.

This blog entry you posted combines Native American spirits, tobacco, and... Thor. http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BIVw1xc1erMo2S9YeNs8nnVh58s158MYhRg-?cq=1&p=238

When the stones were glowing hot
and showing shades of red and blue
…she scattered sacred water
to make a misting dreamtime hue.
...
The Moon is her brother
who lives in the West.
The Water Spider brought the fire
…in each dwelling kept.

White lightening and the Rainbow
are sons of mighty Thor.
They live up in the Western sky
where sacred Eagle lives and soars…
and...songs are only sung when
cunning snake takes his nightly sleep…
and there is no fear of bites…and
elusive Nunne’hi live in the mountains
…helping those in dire need.

The Rabbit is the trickster,
often caught in his own schemes.
Yunwi Tsunsdi are delightful sprites
…who love to dance and sing.

The Hummingbird brought tobacco leaves
to relieve man's suffering and his pain;
and if placed upon a glowing fire
...can divine the future for each of us
…and welcome home our friends.

Then you top it all off by calling yourself a "Shaman and Teacher". http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-BIVw1xc1erMo2S9YeNs8nnVh58s158MYhRg-?cq=1&p=136

This woman....
is a daughter of the Spirit.
Child of the ancestors.
Warrior, Shaman
and Teacher I am.
© *Ganieda*

And again, maybe I'm the only one who thinks this sort of stuff is exactly the reason that most people expect the worst when they hear the words "Pagan" or "Neopagan."

[Ganieda]

Thank you for finally owning up to that

I have never denied this. 

... and I don't remember you asking me permission to repost these or to link to my site here. 

Again, maybe I'm the only one who sees that as a Nuage and racist misrepresentation of First Nations peoples and traditions.

Where does this mention anything relating directly to Native Americans?  It mentions the "Red People, Black People, Yellow People, and White People"

Then you top it all off by calling yourself a "Shaman and Teacher

Yes, as a word of communication of an idea.  I could have used "Healer", Medicine Woman" or some such, but THOSE would definitely refer to Native Americans, so I didn't use them. 

...and I don't refer to myself as

"Religious Cult Leader", "Raging Celt", "priestess"

(found on your websites.)

It would serve a more useful purpose of your time if you would try to be a bit more positive to the fact that I am trying to do some good with my own site, as well as here.  Nit-picking on pet-peeves is self-destructive.

Oh, and BTW... I'm thinking about changing my name and title to: "Lady Whines-a-Lot, High - MF (nasty word) -Bitch-in-Charge, Grove of the Third Eye Migraine."  So be it.  So mote it be.  Amen.  Whatever....  Do you have a problem with that?

[Defend the Sacred]

It would serve a more useful purpose of your time if you would try to be a bit more positive to the fact that I am trying to do some good with my own site, as well as here.  Nit-picking on pet-peeves is self-destructive.

Pointing out racism and cultural appropriation is not "nit-picking". That you would regard the racist stuff you post as that minor, or being bothered by racism as merely a  "pet-peeve", is pretty disturbing.

You posted here advertising your YahooGroup, claiming that it's a "Pagan Version of NAFPS".  Given what I've seen on your Yahoo360 site now, that's an insulting comparison. NAFPS is for fighting cultural appropriation and the racist exploitation of traditional peoples and cultures. I think it was reasonable to assume that a person (or group) claiming to be modeling their group on NAFPS would also be anti-racist and anti-cultural-appropriation.

It's not like you're some random person on the street that got their private belongings sifted through - you're someone who's trying to lead a public, political group, and the public posts I linked to above were two clicks away from that invitation.  As the organizer and almost sole poster to the YahooGroup, your behaviour reflects strongly on the values of the group. That you are presenting yourself as someone who is comfortable appropriating and misrepresenting Indigenous cultures is something that those seeing this advert have a right to know.

As for any good your site may be doing... hard to say. So far what I've seen there is cut and pasted stuff already covered by the mainstream news, or links to sites already familiar to those in the Pagan community.  But the main point for me is this: Even if you do manage to do some good with your other activities, people have a right to know you're misrepresenting indigenous culture. Other "good" does not cancel out that racist behaviour.

Not that it matters, as it has nothing to do with exploiting anyone's religion or culture, but... as "Raging Celt" was my facetious answer to the "race" question on a MySpace page, and "Religious Cult Leader" was followed by "Dog Wrangler" and "Satirist" in response to the "profession" question, I had kind of thought people would understand by the context that I was joking. As for the "priestess" thing, Yeah, that's one of the roles I fill in my community. *shrugs* That bit is serious, but I like to think I still have a sense of humour about it, too. (refer back to "religious cult leader" bit. *snerk*)

Edited To Add: If I had seen this earlier thread, and the pains other members went to, I would have understood the silence in this thread and also elected to not feed the troll: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=361.0;all

[Ganieda]

Leonard...

I am curious to learn more. Is this accurate information about the category 'Pagan' ?

A reasonably good overview of Paganism, Neo-paganism, Witchcraft and the Heathen and Reconstructionist religions (better than Wikipedia)

http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usfl&c=basics&id=4575

[Ganieda]

claiming that it's a "Pagan Version of NAFPS .. {snip} claiming to be modeling their group on NAFPS

I made no such claim and I posted the invitation after requesting, and recieving, permission of the managers of this group.  The focus is not on "anti-racist and anti-cultural-appropriation".  That is the reason for THIS group.  As for "appropriating and misrepresenting Indigenous cultures", I do no such thing.   

So far what I've seen there is cut and pasted stuff already covered by the mainstream news, or links to sites already familiar to those in the Pagan community.

Correct.  A lot of it is cut and pasted from mainstream news.  What I have done is gathered it together to present an overview of individuals.  I also need to be very careful to back up whatever is posted on that site as I don't care to be handed a claim for slandor, libel or character defamation.  I'm sticking my neck out far enough simply having a site like this.  Courageous?  or Foolish?

And, no, many of the links, articles and sites are NOT generally familiar to the Pagan community.  That is one reason why I posted them. 

To the "PASEFA" site you wrote: 

Did you get Isaac's permission to re-post this?

Yet, here you claim

"and the public posts I linked to above were two clicks away from that invitation."

  You did not just post links, you copied and pasted almost the entire pages, without permission.  I also responded to your post, ... 

Thank you for the "heads-up".  His website clearly states "Copyright © 1979, 2001 c.e., Isaac Bonewits. This text file may be freely distributed on the Net, provided that no editing is done, the version number is retained, and everything in this notice box is included. If you would like to be on one or more of Isaac Bonewits' emailing lists, click here to get subscription information."

And now, I think it is time for us all to SHUT-UP and quit bickering and get on with doing something positive instead.  I, for one, need to research those links that Mr. McEwan so kindly posted, even if I do have to re-write an intro.  *sigh*... so much for co-operation between sites. 

[Mabonwy]

All of contemporary neo-paganism is derived from the religion invented in the late 40s-early 50s by him and his fellow pioneers.

I realize I'm coming to this way late, but bear with me.

Feri, and by extension Reclaiming, are not.   They are based on "a home-grown American strain of religious witchcraft"  (from Hutton's book, your own source) which pre-dates Gardner.   Further...a lot of the "Gardner made it all up" stuff comes from Aidan Kelly, who is himself not a very reliable source.  So be careful with those broad assertions.  Like a lot of things, the truth is more complicated.

I'm usually a bit puzzled by the people who *simultaneously* say that Gardner invented Wicca out of whole cloth, and that he was influenced by the Golden Dawn, etc.   Which is it?  And what exactly is wrong with being influenced by the Golden Dawn, who were in turn influenced by the Rosicrucians, who are part of a Western occult tradition that's traceable back through the Renaissance and beyond?  (Frances Yates, "The Rosicrucian Enlightenment")   Idries Shah thinks European witchcraft is partially an offshoot of Sufism brought to Europe during the Middle Ages.   I'm not sure what I think of that, but whatever the origin of that stuff ultimately is, it's worth preserving and NOT a recent invention.

At any rate, I think there's a really simple way to evaluate Pagan frauds that doesn't require arguing validity between groups or defining "Paganism"  (a hopeless task):   Are they who they say they are?   Do the people they claim as teachers and initiators know them?   Do they get shirty when you ask them for contact info from their teachers/community?  Do they try to coerce you into *anything* based on your desire to learn?.....Because even though there is a controversy in Feri about charging money to teach, there ARE teachers around who don't charge money, and any of the ones who do should be both willing and able to refer you to someone who does not.    That's just one example from my own trad.  If someone is part of a community, and not just teaching something they came up with on their own, then there are other community members who have a different take on the matter and who can be communicated with.  There are LOTS of Pagans around, so talk to people.

[Defend the Sacred]

Further...a lot of the "Gardner made it all up" stuff comes from Aidan Kelly, who is himself not a very reliable source.

The thing is, Kelly is not the first, nor only, researcher to come to this conclusion. I heard all of this years before Kelly published, from the man who brought the Alexandrian tradition to the US in the sixties. My own background in Hinduism also made it clear what some of Gardner's sources were.

Whether it's "whole cloth" or "influenced by over a dozen different religions, compiled into an eclectic, modern tradition passed off as ancient" is really a matter of semantics, imho.

It does seem that Anderson had an influence from Appalachian folk magic, satanism* and hoodoo in his early versions of Feri (not sure if he was calling it Feri yet at that point), but he did bring in A LOT of stuff from Gardner when he discovered Gardner's books. Or that's what I recall Anderson saying in interviews.

*I don't say that to imply that Feri or the traditions derived from it are "satanic", only that in the research I've seen, it seemed pretty clear that Anderson took inspiration from folk traditions like, "Go into the graveyard, naked at midnight, and ask the Devil for magical powers." and similar stuff. It also seems like Anderson's presentation of what Feri was/is changed significantly over his lifetime.

And, well, there is the whole initiation story, which is exactly like Gardner's, IIRC.

While many people seem to feel drawn to Feri, I have to say that a tradition that combines Hawaiian, African, Celtic and Middle Eastern ideas, practices and symbology has to be modern. In my experience people didn't used to claim Feri was pre-Gardnerian. I only heard people start claiming that after Kelly was published and they didn't like what he had to say.