Author Topic: Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)  (Read 112337 times)

Offline Mabonwy

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #60 on: April 17, 2008, 05:00:06 am »
Well, it's *Hutton* who is willing to credit the idea that Feri is a "home-grown American strain of religious witchcraft".   Either you think Hutton is a reliable source, or you don't, but if people are going to use him to back up their opinions, they need to take in *all* of what he says, not just strip it down and use it like a stick to whack people with. 

Anderson's story isn't at all like Gardner's, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.  Yes, he sure did change what he did over time, as the practitioners of living traditions sometimes do, and the different lines of Feri have different practices, not the least because we all feel perfectly willing to keep evolving what we are doing.  But there's a core of stuff that he passed down to everyone, that didn't come from *anywhere* else.  Anywhere you encounter it, it came *from* Feri, not otherwise.

I personally disagree with the idea that an old tradition has to be "pure"; I think that the opposite is most likely to be true, because the natural tendency of people is to syncretize and adapt, *especially* when they are under some kind of pressure.  Plus Victor personally tended to universalize, and assume that anything he encountered that was LIKE what he was doing was part of the same "secret" strain of mystic whatever.  But that was him. 

My own feeling on the matter is that I am not a European and I have no interest in reconstructing Old Ancient Traditions I am dubious of the validity of and which I feel no cultural connection to, nor yet trying to swipe ones from indigenous cultures I'm also not part of.  I'm a tenth-generation creolized American (by which I mean that I'm mostly but not entirely Euro-descended) and *my* cultural traditions include exactly the hoodoo and Southern folk magic that Feri is most firmly rooted in.   My family practiced that stuff  and Feri is (at least parts of it) an organic extension of it.  It's as close to being a culturally appropriate religious practice that actually conforms to my personal values as I'm going to get. 

Anyway, my point was, that the advantage of the initiatory traditions that people are having so much fun scoffing at here is that....they have initiatory lineages.  Which you can CHECK.  If someone claims an initiation in trad Wicca or Feri, you can ask to be put in contact with their initiator.  If the person refuses, you should be suspicious.



Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #61 on: April 17, 2008, 06:16:59 pm »
Feri, and by extension Reclaiming, are not. They are based on "a home-grown American strain of religious witchcraft"  (from Hutton's book, your own source) which pre-dates Gardner.

The quote is "Starhawk was a feminist who had been trained by Gardnerians and then initiated into one of the home-grown American strains of pagan witchcraft which had absorbed some material from Wicca, the Faery, taught by Victor Anderson." It's on p345 of Hutton's book, fact fans.

So when was it homegrown? Could you provide some evidence that it predates Gardner, please?

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I'm usually a bit puzzled by the people who *simultaneously* say that Gardner invented Wicca out of whole cloth, and that he was influenced by the Golden Dawn, etc.   Which is it?  And what exactly is wrong with being influenced by the Golden Dawn...

It's wrong if you conceal it, as Gardner did when he publicised his new religion.

I personally disagree with the idea that an old tradition has to be "pure"...

It at least has to be old if that's what people are claiming it is.

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Anyway, my point was, that the advantage of the initiatory traditions that people are having so much fun scoffing at here is that....they have initiatory lineages.  Which you can CHECK.  If someone claims an initiation in trad Wicca or Feri, you can ask to be put in contact with their initiator.  If the person refuses, you should be suspicious.

What if the initiator is a fantasist who gets a buzz out of initiating other fantasists? What if the person who initiated the initiator tended to universalize, and assume that anything he encountered that was LIKE what he was doing was part of the same "secret" strain of mystic whatever?

Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2008, 08:17:34 am »
Either you think Hutton is a reliable source, or you don't, but if people are going to use him to back up their opinions, they need to take in *all* of what he says, not just strip it down and use it like a stick to whack people with.

Have to disagree with you here. Never met the author I agreed with unequivocally, 100%, no questions asked. Hutton has done some good work, but other areas of his research (such as on Sheela na Gigs) are superficial or incomplete. He's tried to cover a lot of territory, and has done some areas of it better than others. I think it's rather unrealistic, and non-academic, to think any author or book is either 100% perfect *or* totally worthless, with no in-betweens. It's all a continuum, and critical thought is not optional ;-)

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Anderson's story isn't at all like Gardner's, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Perhaps I was thinking Alex Sanders and Anderson. The underage sex with a mysterious old woman in the kitchen. (page 78, Adler, DDTM - Anderson)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 05:29:34 pm by Yells At Pretendians »

Offline yngona

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2008, 04:44:55 pm »
Are there ANY Celtic reconstructionist groups out there that are not nuage, romanticized, historically inacurate, or eclectic?  If the Asatru people can piece together their old traditions, why are the Celtic traditions so full of bad information?

Sadly, Asatru/Heathenry has its nuagers as well.  They have infiltrated our ancestral folkway and work actively to water down our well-documented customs and traditions.

Live Deliberately!
Yngona Desmond

Offline yngona

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2008, 05:00:19 pm »
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AsatrĂº is a Germanic/Norse stream of Polytheistic Reconstructionism. With the Eddas, a good deal of surviving folklore, and at least one priest of the old traditions surviving in Iceland into my lifetime, they've had a lot to build on. While there has been the serious problem of racists being attracted to it, as well as some who don't consider themselves racist still using source materials written by racists, for those who actually adhere to its better principles, it is an ethnic tradition with about as much validity and heft to it as you'll find among white folks. However, "Goth" is a musical/fashion style affected by some of the younger Neopagans, not an historical magical tradition. (Unless you're speaking about some spiritual traditions of the real, historical Goths... which afaik have nothing to do with the sort of "spooky Neo-Wicca" that some young people are calling "Gothic".)

Nicely explained.  Thank you.

Heathens (also: Asatruers) have a remarkable wealth of history to rely upon (the Eddas being but one small portion).

Real Heathens are not racists but respectful of their ancestry.  In truth, we should be considered 'ancestor worshippers' or 'ancestor venerators'.  And the only 'goths' I know are also Heathen tribes - the East Germanic Visigoths and Ostergoths.  The former settled in modern day Spain and the latter in Italy and the Balkans.

Live Deliberately!
Yngona Desmond
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 05:59:56 pm by Defend the Sacred »

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #65 on: May 30, 2008, 06:49:56 pm »
Sadly, Asatru/Heathenry has its nuagers as well.  They have infiltrated our ancestral folkway and work actively to water down our well-documented customs and traditions.

Indeed. One reviewer of a book of yours considers you one of them:

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Apparently, she spends more time "actively monitoring ley lines", "assisting local Guardians with energy clean-up" and "reconnecting in a non-invasive manner with primal and ancestral energies" while communing with her "folk-soul" than she does performing scholarly research. This is definitely not a scholarly work as the first reviewer states, but is a new-agey, somewhat racist, poorly referenced work that left me wondering how anyone could possibly have mistaken this as a work of significant scholarship.

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/1419618415?sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

Offline Kevin

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2008, 01:14:40 am »
Greetings Great Sister Yngona!  I am Dances With Badgers, head man of the RRB (red road boys) - we are attempting to establish a 5 mile wide, open DMZ around all reservations. We have been sneaking around burning wreaths of stinkweed on the lawns of white folks in an attempt to scare them off  at least 5 miles away  from Indian land. Our Shaman, whose name I cannot disclose due to sacred vows taken by all RRB members, employs the power of the sacred white weasel. He blesses our wreaths of stinkweek and I'm here to tell you they fire up fast once he has done his thing! We are few in number but highly dedicated and disciplined so please send us your prayers! I believe your own sacred ways will attune you to any member of the RRB you happen to encounter, we go around in plain clothes except when on raids, so all you have to do to identify one of the RRBs is to pat your heart twice and make some comment about badgers. Any RRB member will be able that way to sense  your power is genuine and you will have a friend on the spot! Aho! I have spoken!

Offline Mabonwy

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2009, 05:45:30 am »
Victor Anderson claimed he was taught by a group of people called the "Harpy Coven" who lived in Oregon in the 1930's.  Those folks were from Kentucky and Tennessee, and evidently were familiar with both the folk beliefs and practices of the region and a strain of occult practice.

Those people did exist; their names are on the census.   Furthermore, there are a lot of things embedded in Feri practice which aren't widely known or available in books, but which are known to *me* because I know a fair amount about Southern folk magic through my own family and also through knowing practitioners.   There's also a core of practice which is distinctly different from Wicca or anything else; the similarities are all things which were sort of grafted on later.  We do KNOW what was grafted on, and by whom.   A combination of these and other factors leads me to believe that the core of Feri is indeed pre-Gardnerian, rooted in Southern folk beliefs via the Harpy Coven, and distinct from the Brit-Trad-influenced strains of neo-Paganism.   Actually, I think that should be pretty obvious to anyone who actually knew much about Feri, and had enough background to know what they were looking at...as opposed to reading an article about it somewhere.

Still, I would have to write a book to explain why I think so in detail.  (One of these days, I might.)  And none of this is terribly important unless you want to get into Feri yourself, really.  The only point I was trying to make is that trad witchcraft has its own methods for evaluating who is or isn't legit.   And that anyone who dismisses trad witchcraft out of hand, but is claiming to want to expose Pagan frauds,  is cutting him or herself off at the knees.   That, or apparently has some kind of reconstructionist axe to grind.   I have philosophical and logical objections to reconstructionism, but at least I don't try to pretend that the people who want to do that are automatically fakers.

Offline londonsurrealist

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2013, 08:06:04 pm »
Hello there

"Hi wyldwych. From what you describe UAOD may have started from noble intentions, but at least in part it sure doesn't have them now. In that it reminds me of a site called Metista.com, run by a guy (now passed on) calling himself Bearwalker Wilson. Wilson made a lot of noble sounding declarations against selling ceremonies and calling for respect for Natives. And then he turned around and sold "his own" version of Native ceremonies."

I realise that this is an old thread and an old comment, however I would like to state very directly and emphatically that the above statement by Educatedindian is wholly inaccurate. I studied with Joe for several years until his death and in that time he never, I repeat NEVER
a. Performed Native ceremonies
b. Sold his own version of Native ceremonies.
c. Sold anything except a self-published book and some dolls.

What is more, he was insistent upon trying to find one's own spirituality through understanding one's own culture. The idea behind Metista was that by coming to terms with the mongrel nature of most culture and with what we actually own we can discover our own spirituality. Many things can become inspirations, including Native American beliefs and practices, but  one would not follow the Native American path unless one had the right as that would be cultural theft.

Joe disbanded Metista as it ceased to entirely reflect his ideas and set up Toteg Tribe. Toteg was an acronyn of Temple Of The Elder Gods, not some kind of fake "Indian" word. This is explained more fully on the Toteg Tribe website:
 http://www.toteg.org/

I can state absolutely that any claim that Joe was selling any teachings (Native or otherwise) is utterly untrue and that any person who claims otherwise is either ignorant and responding to rumours or, simply a liar. In the seven years I knew him, he never asked for money for anything. He did sell me a few items that he had made, but even then he sent me a present that cost him more than the things I bought off him. Others can verify this.

If anybody is interested in this matter they can see for themselves the outline of the Toteg Tribe teachings at the above URL and if they have any questions they can ask me.

Stuart Inman





Offline Defend the Sacred

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Re: Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2013, 01:17:24 am »
Hello Mr. Inman,

I don't know much about this group, but looking at their website, it's not only their use of the terms "tribe," "clan," and "American shamanism" that would lead to some suspicions about them. There's also text like this:

http://www.mountainshadowstoteg.org/

"We know that all things are children of the Earth Mother and Sky Father, and thus we are all related."
and
"In 2011 we will begin a series of workshops and rituals... Our initial offering for this series is "American Shamanism: The History and Ethos of Toteg Tribe".... Our second workshop, "Lore of the Talking Stick""

While they also state elsewhere on the page that they are not Native, it's obvious where they're taking some of these ideas from. And if they are using Harner's methods of Shamanism, those are taken from anthroplogical accounts (and fantasies) of Native American practices, albeit with a Siberian misnomer.

Again, I know very little about this "Toteg" group, but from looking at their pages, what they say about themselves does raise some red flags about misappropriation concerns.

(note - this thread very quickly turned into something that doesn't really fit in non-frauds. moving to etc.)

Epiphany

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Joe may not have sold ceremony for actual cash. But he sold a bill of goods. "Selling" can occur in many forms.

Honestly, white folks are gonna feel like they are doing something Native when they are practicing what he preached. We all might deny this, but why else would we be doing Tribes and Shamanism and Talking Stick Consecrations etc etc? Isn't this ultimately playing Indian?

Presentations on "Land Spirits of Utah"? Really? http://eventful.com/saltlakecity_ut/events/mountainshadows-clan-toteg-tribe-presents-l-/E0-001-036958044-2

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I confess, I got Inspiration from an Indian. I followed an Indian "truth" without taking from an Indian culture. In my case, it led me back to a "truth" of my own heritage, that I already knew, but in the

know-it-all impetuousness of youth had chosen to ignore. It may lead others in different places, I don't know. I continue to follow those teachings to this day.


http://www.toteg.org/naturespirit.htm

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If you have a call to shamanize the path will be very difficult. Modern American society is not set up in such a way that we still have cultures or subcultures in which shamanism is recognized and practiced.

We really have no foundation in which shamanism is or can be relatively easily understood. As Tori remarked to me this morning, what we in Metista are doing is NOT training shamans. It appears that what we,

along with Michael Harner, Sandra Ingerman, and several others (including the general Neo-Pagan movement I suppose), ARE doing is preparing society so that in another five or six generations it really can

accept those in the role of a true "shaman."

Quote from So You Wannabe A Shaman, Huh?  http://www.scribd.com/doc/76580442/Joseph-Bear-Walker-Wilson-So-You-Wannabe-a-Shaman

Offline educatedindian

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Mr Inman, I can categorically state you don't seem to have known Wilson as well as you think you did. I personally saw his site offering the sale of ceremonies. This was towards the very end, some years ago, and not for a long period of time. It was quite striking to me, coming after years of denouncing pay to pray.

This may be what you and Wilson himself are referring to when you say he became disillusioned with what he founded. Wilson does seem to have been a PODIA hoping to connect with his ancestry and finally realized there would always be Nuage types seeking any opening to exploit. So finally he turned from Metista, based largely on Harner and other core shame on exploiters, to his attempt at Euro witchcraft traditions.

Epiphany

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I never met Joe but I talked with him a few times online. He had an online chat room. Joe had become a student of Cat Yronwode and I believe was eventually a retailer for her hoodoo rootworker products.

I was interested in his work but honestly couldn't get past the fact that "Toteg" in my mind sounds like "toe tag" as in a morgue item to me. I also was finally getting free of the Nuage.

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Bearwalker's Shamanic Services

      In spite of what you may have heard elsewhere, "shamanism" is not the same thing as Native American spirituality. The word "shaman" actually comes from Siberia, and its use to describe Native American holy men and women can be offensive to traditional Natives and their Elders - please be considerate of their wishes. I am not an Indian, and I do not practice Native American forms of spirituality.

     I am a shamanist. Traditionally the shaman's service to community is to: Find lost objects or things, locate and attract game, divine what future events are in store for individuals or the group as a whole, control the weather, guide the souls of the dead to their proper home, drive away evil spirits or ghosts, change luck from bad to good, overcome and destroy evil magicians or evil spirits who are attacking individuals or the group when needed, diagnose the causes of problems and prescribe solutions, and yes, even healing.

     Needless to say all of those things are not needed in our modern society. What I can do is perform readings or divinations for you, and offer advice based upon what those divinations show, and therefore provide insight and guidance into such areas of your life as love and sex, health, financial security, and overall happiness and contentment.

      I do daily prayers and meditations and will be pleased to add your name to those I mention in these prayers without charge.

     If you have a more specific need or would like a little more personal focus, I'll be happy to add a candle burning working for you. I ask for $5 to do this.

     I can also perform shamanic readings or divinations for you, and offer advice based upon what those divinations show. This can provide insight and guidance into such areas of your life as love and sex, health, finances, and overall happiness and contentment. I use a variety of things when I do divination readings, as the situation may be called for. Most readings take 48 to 72 hours to complete.

      I always start by sleeping on the problem and getting information from my spirits in dreamtime, and then doing a journey for additional help and clarification. After that I will use such tecniques as casting bones, stones, or seeds on my drumhead, candle wax, cards, or my crystal ball depending upon what my spirits indicate the situation calls for. These are different from ordinary readings in that I will also suggest a minor spell or magical working that you can do to help your situation. I ask for $40 for this service.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020606005131/http://www.josephbwilson.com/services.html

Epiphany

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Required reading for Toteg's Visar Guild: http://www.toteg.org/amazonvisarreading.htm

Harner's book The Way of the Shaman is required reading.

Epiphany

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Bio for Stuart Inman:

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Stuart Inman studied with Joseph Bearwalker Wilson for seven years and is a Doyen of Toteg Tribe and one of three Virtue Holders of the 1734 Tradition of Witchcraft. He is an initiate of both Alexandrian and Gardnerian Wicca and has studied Tibetan Buddhism. He has also been involved with the International Surrealist Movement for over twenty years, has done original research into lesser known aspects of surrealism and is a founder member of the London Surrealist Group.

http://fulgur.co.uk/abraxas/abraxas-issue-one-contributors/

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Doyen: A person who is the senior member and spiritual leader of the Tribe or of a Clan of the Tribe.


http://www.shadowdance.org/toteg/glossary.html