Pagan appropriators, allies, and other weirdness (was Pagan Version of NAFPS Forming)

[educatedindian]

I spoke with some people over at Freedom of Mind, and they're interested in the idea of a pagan version of NAFPS. I invited them over here.

For now it will likely start off with discussion of how to set up, what pitfalls to avoid. Those of you who are or were pagans, I think they'd be most interested in talking to you. Just hope you'll still make time to still be at NAFPS.

For now I'll also be glad to host their threads on abusive and exploitive people in the pagan community.

[educatedindian]

I'm wondering how their efforts would face different problems for ours. For one thing there's far fewer equivalents of actual elders they could turn to.

For another the whole question of who's an imposter or not is more difficult.

Even sexual abuse and exploitation for money are more difficult issues since charging is seen as alright by most and sleeping with your teacher is sometimes common.

Any others? Any ideas on how they resolve these?

[RobintheDruid]

Al,

I would love to be involved in the Celtic Pagan/Druid side of this, but I might, in the process hack a lot of Druids off.

One thing that I definitely feel is the unwillingness of those who call themselves 'Druids' to research Celtic history and mythology, and instead turn to presumed ideas which are really inventions of people like Iolo Morgannwg (17th c Welsh) who is known to have invented a lot of stuff. After him came William Blake, William Stukely, etc Victorian romanticism.

A lot of modern 'Druidry' is based on this rubbish, and even major orders, especially OBOD (Order of Bards Ovates and Druids) base their philosophy on it.

And as for what the Welsh and Irish think, Lord knows.

Robin

[Sheena McDonagh]

While I understand what you're saying Robin... I suggest that you find out more about OBOD before attacking it.

OBOD themselves admit that they are a revivalist druid order, and state precisely where their teachings come from. Not all of it is inspired by Iolo Morgannwg, Blake, et al. But some of it is received by each individuals journey with the world around them (inner and outer worlds). Some of it is indeed very Proto Masonic, but we have to remember that the people forming these groups at their outset were all freemasons. Look into the history of the Western Mystery Tradition, its all there. OBOD, in my experience have never claimed to know everything about druidry, nor have they claimed to be the only way into druidry.

Yes, I am a member, and proud of it.

We also have to remember that history is written by the victors. No one truly knows what the Celts did, if they indeed existed as a race at all. All we have is second hand accounts from Roman authors, who were somewhat biased.

Any mythology that does exist is to be read with an open mind and an open heart, regardless of how you come to it.

I would recommend anyone try speaking to OBOD before criticising them. They are part of the "Neo-Pagan revival".. and if the teachings of any group speak to you, then so be it. If they don't then don't do it.. Its down to personal choice.

I think you will find that there are many groups out there exploiting people, I doubt you could class OBOD as one of them. If its about the money.. OBOD is an organisation, they have booklets to produce, and people to pay to do it. I have found them very accomodating, and if you can't afford to do the course, then they can and do help people out.

Again, try looking into the organisation before criticising it.

[educatedindian]

Sheena, first of all, welcome, and hope you'll be more than just a guest.
But whether you realize it or not, you did just illustrate some problems the pagan community faces. Equating criticism with "attacks" for example. I don't know whether pagans picked that technique up from Nuage or vice versa, but it is commonly used by Nuagers to shut down any kind of self critique within the ranks. The same with insisting people cannot criticize without having met the person or group under criticism. Native communities tend to say almost the opposite, that no one who has good character or tries to do the right thing should worry about criticism. In fact criticism exists for good reason, to keep people who would do wrong in line.

"No one truly knows what the Celts did, if they indeed existed as a race at all. All we have is second hand accounts from Roman authors, who were somewhat biased."

I'm a historian, admittedly not one specializing in that era or region. But there are ways to get around second hand and biased accounts and still get at the truth. Just admitting such sources are biased is a start. It's a pretty common technique in history to read court cases to get at the history of workers and peasants, even though the court docs all come from people in power. ?

"I think you will find that there are many groups out there exploiting people,"

This is what I'm interested in knowing about, and believe pagans should want to know too, rather than shutting down any self criticism before it can even start.

"If its about the money.."

At least partly. Has anyone researched to find out just what the original Celtic/Druid/whatever-label-we're-using attitude was towards cash payment was? Because I doubt that cash was even in much use at the time within those communities. More likely barter, and perhaps one way around the dilemna with so many pagans making or seeking to make a living from selling teachings might be a revival of using purely barter. Just a suggestion from an outsider...

[debbieredbear]

Well, I looked into the OBOD website.  I was unimpressed. A person can take some online courses and in three years, VOILA! You're a druid. Or a drood as my friend, Breandan, would say. I also have a problem having people talk about the "druid religion" which smacks of what I hear from nuagers about the "Indian religion." Ain't no such things. I read in historical volumes that druids were the learned class. They studied for mayb 20 years and had to memorize the laws, poetry and more. And then we get todays instant-gimme-it-now attitude and we have instant druids. Looked like just another version of Wicca to me.

Oh, and Robin, I have friends who are Welsh and some who are Irish. They think it is a lot of rubbish.  One Welsh friend was horrified when her daughter brought home a book on that stuff. My friend is not Christian so it wasn't  that it was pagan that upset her, it was that it was neo-pagan-make-it-up-as-you-go-along stuff.

And I agree with Al, that you can find evidence if you read closely. I have friends who are Gaelic scholars. They have found much information about ancient religious beliefs and practices by reading historical works. Particularly in Ireland where the Romans did not go. The one thing my friends have made me understand is that there is no "Celtic" religion, it is a cultural thing. Much like Indian religions and spirituality are culturally based. Just my 2 cents.

[Matt_Bowerman]

Being a novice student of Celtic history, and Celtic pagan history I can say that Druidism is a mystery that many have tried to recreate.  Debbie did have it right.  It is commonly agreed upon by historians that druid training took many years, and the three years and out lesson plan is made for the modern era, but then again perhaps the first three years is the building of the basics from which each member is expected to start from on their personal journey. Then again the world has changed much over time, and teaching techniques must change to meet the needs of the people. It is believed that most druids started their life off in a lengthy childhood training period, or apprenticeship. People have to earn a living today if they want to eat, and sleep with a roof over their head.  They did then as well, but being a druid today will not pay the bills unless you are charging money for ceremonies, and services.  I wish our pagan friends the best of luck regardless, for it is a noble endeavor to know ones culture.    

Having studied the Occult history of the west, I would suggest that what we now know as Wiccan, Hermetic Ceremonial/High Magik, and neo-pagan spiritualism all evolved out of the earlier studies started in the depths of time, perhaps even before the great city states of Greece. Most are familiar with names like Cornelius Agrippa, Nicolas Flamel, Levi, Barret, Dee, Matthers, Crowley, Gardner, etc.  Each generation developed studies upon the former generation’s practices, then took it further with what they could offer.  But to be blunt, any western pagan religion will be a recreated one to fit the needs of the people today.  Worshipers of Apollo can no longer offer sacrifice as they once did, nor can worshipers of Aries provide human sacrifices after battle.  However, one can burn a little incense, and put some food on the alter. I would be interested to see how modern pagans could form a society like this one without becoming culture specific.  Where would one begin? Most Wicca is not bound by any one culture, and High Magik is often done within Western systems with the outside Egyptian influence.  I think the real concern is exposing those who charge money for services when they are truly not knowledgeable. I believe this is the key concern.  I wish them luck, and good hunting.        

[Scott Brainard]

My outsiders' $0.02:

I feel they'll have more early success in bearing down as a group upon those Pagan groups and individuals who are abusive, mix blatantly non-Pagan, non-Celtic influences in with their teachings and/or overcommercialize, rather than attempting from the start to argue out a monolithic viewpoint of "core" Paganism and defending it.  As time progresses and they get down to finer and finer details in their critiques, they'll have a good shot at eventually distilling a working description of "core" Paganism amenable to the Pagan majority.  Sort of a "grab the easy ducks first" scenario.

Just a suggestion...I know next to nothing of Pagan history.

--Scott B.

[AlaskaGrl]

..I know next to nothing of Pagan history. quote]

They probably don't know either. ? Going by the books at the stores currently and the online crap, ie; what they are reading and have been doing and what I have seen. ? They are cobbling it together from everyone elses history and traditions, making a few up where none existed before, and then adding a fluffy factor x20. ? If some can make money they do, if some can abuse they do. ?  It's easy to figure out just go somewhere and talk to them, see what they know about their history (path) and see if they can explain to you what they are doing and what it is based on. ? Some can, some can't. ?

I was recently appaled at the number of white guys out there making flutes under the guise of being Indian. ? That takes alot of nerve... ? Almost as much as the US allowing China to import to us all the skeletons of their dead as curiosities for the book shelf. ? We don't even know who these people were or how they died. ? It's always something out there...

I hope the Pagan version of NAFPS does really well.
It is sorely needed.

Those were my two-cents.

[educatedindian]

Linda, unfortunately the two pagans I spoke with at Freedom of Mind are a bit worried about any backlash from reporting or even discussing publicly abusers and exploiters.

How would you feel about trying to set up an anti exploiters' forum? Or hosting or initiating discussions here on the subject?  

[AlaskaGrl]

Linda, unfortunately the two pagans I spoke with at Freedom of Mind are a bit worried about any backlash from reporting or even discussing publicly abusers and exploiters.

Oh yeah I know first hand those spirtchul people of light with their followers can be reeaal bad. Threatening one with bodily harm, law suits, hacking your sites and e-mail accounts...  spreading nasty rumors about ones personal life... ?  all the way to doing negative forms magic to a person (well, they usually can't do anything themselves so they get someone else to do it).  They are very good at hushing their detractors such is their hate of  questioning.   

How would you feel about trying to set up an anti exploiters' forum? Or hosting or initiating discussions here on the subject? ?

I am open to discuss implementing a version of the NAFPS dealing with abusers in the Pagan - and I use that term broadly, since it covers a wide audience of "paths" community with the Freedom of Mind people and anyone else interested in this problem of abuse. ?

On the activism side of things some here know I have worked off and on with contacting the US Cultural Heritage Center U.S. Dept of State, Customs, and U.S. Dept of Commerce on issues that I felt/feel were/are important. ? I network.. ? I nag.. I question.. ? Of the issues I have gone to the above with some were resolved, others quite large, I am still working on.

There is solidarity in voices. ? If you see something that is wrong Freedom of Mind - anyone else .. then make some noise. ? Don't let abuse that you may know of continue. ? If you get your facts together and check them, work with authorities and others, yell enough and write enough about issues that make your blood boil people will eventually listen and things will eventually turn around. ? I've seen it happen with things I have gone after. ?


 

[Matt_Bowerman]

You go girlllllllllllllllllllll  No really, some policing is needed for sure.  

Matt

[wyldwych]

Hi all,

I've recently joined here.. (yes its me that stirred the cauldron with my defence of OBOD).

I admit that all Western Mystery Tradition stems from one source. Not one of Native British Practices, but of Masonic source.

That is rather unfortunate, that the majority of information available comes via The Golden Dawn, Freemasonry, Rosecrucianism, etc.. with its emphasis on ritual magick.. But I guess if it works for you, then great.

The Pagan thing is a whole can of worms.. And yes, I defended OBOD, because I believe it to be one of the few organisations worth defending... I'm not into threatening people, or anything like that, but am interested in finding out the truth.

Basically today we live in a climate where people can call themselves whatever they like, and not actually put in much spiritual practice. Read a few books and call yourself a "witch", "druid",  "pagan". whatever....and some of those people are very dangerous, exploiting people, etc... Which is another reason organisations like OBOD, and the PF, were set up.. in order to help people find their way through the quagmire.

I don't say that these organisations have all the answers, as much as any path has all the answers (I don't believe that any path has all the answers, only some of them).

Each path, I believe, is about discovery of the self (call me a nuager, if you like, I really don't care), and discovering where you're going on that path.

Some people are led through the mist and come out the other side cynical and jaded, others come out as nuage love and lighters... my question is, as long as you're not harming anyone, does it really matter?

I understand the desire to keep native traditions native, but isn't that how we lost a lot of traditions anyway? Whether over here in the UK, or in America?

I understand that there is a preciousness about tradition, and upholding that tradition within one's own clan is of the upmost importance..  But, I ask, if there are so many frauds out there, who is redressing the balance?

I'm rambling and going off tangent, so I'll leave this post here..

I may be the only person in my corner, and I am willing to accept others points of view. I do not deny the past of the traditions I follow, but rather use them to create my own path in the world.

Thanks for listening.

Sheena

[educatedindian]

Hi wyldwych. From what you describe UAOD may have started from noble intentions, but at least in part it sure doesn't have them now. In that it reminds me of a site called Metista.com, run by a guy (now passed on) calling himself Bearwalker Wilson. Wilson made a lot of noble sounding declarations against selling ceremonies and calling for respect for Natives. And then he turned around and sold "his own" version of Native ceremonies.

Still, I'm glad you're here and willing to read and listen and hopefully pass on to others the information we gather in here on frauds. A few points:

"Some people are led through the mist and come out the other side cynical and jaded, others come out as nuage love and lighters... my question is, as long as you're not harming anyone, does it really matter?"

Yes, of course it matters. Truth matters.

"I understand the desire to keep native traditions native, but isn't that how we lost a lot of traditions anyway? Whether over here in the UK, or in America?"

No, where'd you get that idea? Just the opposite. The tribes which kept their traditions to themselves are the ones with the fewest problems with frauds.

"I understand that there is a preciousness about tradition, and upholding that tradition within one's own clan is of the upmost importance..  But, I ask, if there are so many frauds out there, who is redressing the balance?"

If I understand you correctly, the answer to that should be obvious. The "balance" as you put it comes from those who oppose the frauds.

"I do not deny the past of the traditions I follow, but rather use them to create my own path in the world."

Yeah, well...I'll leave that to the pagans here to address the rightness of doing that. But in Native traditions you don't just take a tradition and use it to make up what you then claim is "your own." Whether you realize it or not, that emphasis on individual faith is a product of Christian thinking. And that emphasis on "what feels right for me" is the influence of plain old advertising and marketing, not anything spiritual.

Incidentally, can you find out anything on the group mentioned in this thread?
http://newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?board=unsure;action=display;num=1125804827;start=0#1

[wyldwych]

Hi Educated Indian.

Of course truth matters. I wasn't suggesting that it doesn't.

OK, being honest about the path I am currently on is to reflect that path to truth.

I have discovered, over the last few years that the path I thought I was on, wasn't the one I thought I was on.

My judgment was clouded by poor research on my part. I'll admit it.  Apart from Native traditions, which I'll openly admit I know little about, the vast majority of Pagan (or should I say "Neo-Pagan") beleifs stem from some kind of Proto-masonic melting pot.

I was thoroughly disappointed when I found that out, and continue to be disappointed when I find more and more untruths passed of as truth.

In understand, your reluctance to accept what I say as truth. I have been on a rather convoluted path... I'll admit that, and yes, I have adopted a "pick and mix" approach, if you will.. This has come from trying to find my own truth in a world full of untruths.

I do not have any ancestral beliefs, as I'm a Western European, part Irish, part everything... which I suppose says a lot really..

I suppose its no wonder I'm confused about my path..