Author Topic: the new age  (Read 34856 times)

Offline qirin

  • Posts: 19
the new age
« on: November 22, 2008, 08:59:18 pm »
An Open Letter to NAFPS

I am posting this letter here despite the fact that I run the risk of being ignored and accused of being a troll, because I think what I have to say is valid.  I say what I have to say out of a genuine desire for mutual understanding, not to provoke anger.

Let me begin by saying that I am not defending people like Carlos Castaneda, Alberto Villoldo, Maria Yraceburu et al. who misrepresent themselves as emissaries of cultures they have no connection to.  I do not support cultural imperialism, the selling of other people's cultures, charlatanry and the exploitation of people's naivety, depression and desire for meaning.

What I am is a "New Ager??? who finds a lot of things on this site and in these discussions extremely troubling.  I haven't read the entire contents of the board, and so some of what I say here may have been answered in other places, and if so I apologize.  However, I feel that I do have the right to defend what is essentially my own personal cultural tradition.

First off, I object to the spelling "nuager," and the equation of the New Age with fraud.  Are you making a pun on the word "nuage," French for cloud?  New Agers are frequently accused of being vacuous, so you should be aware of the association.  But whatever the case, by creating a parody of a term that has been applied to us by other people (we usually call ourselves spiritualists, pagans, magicians, neo-shamans, heathens, wiccans, Christians, psychics, mystics, healers, occultists, hippies, ravers, sanguinarians, otherkin, starseeds and so on), you have in essence coined a derogatory epithet for us.  Personally I find that offensive.

New Agers are members of a loose knit post-Christian religious tradition of European origin that draws heavily on folk beliefs and magical practices, as well as medieval hermeticism.  Although it is difficult to characterize the New Age because it is an eclectic movement, we can point to four universals: the belief that all humans are latently psychic, meaning they can develop abilities that lie outside everyday experience; the belief that consciousness is a form of energy that animates all living organisms, and that this energy can be felt and manipulated; the belief in invisible beings, which may actually exist or may be parts of ourselves, that can be contacted using divination tools and non-ordinary states of consciousness; and the belief that history is on the verge of or has entered into a new epoch (the "New Age") that is heralded by a democratization of spiritual powers (meaning they are no longer the exclusive purview of a select few) and cataclysmic social and political change.

Frequently these beliefs are held together by the conception of the natural world as divine; of the universe as the literal body of God (“panentheism???); or a kind of non-exclusive monotheism (as in the Japanese “new religion??? Oomoto-kyo) which sees all beings and divinities as part of a single intelligence, often referred to as "Spirit."  Other common beliefs include synchronicity (which predates Jung and in fact derives at least in part from the New England colonists’ practice of interpreting the events of one's life through bible stories), astrology, sympathetic magic, divination, and meditation as a path to spiritual enlightenment.

While it's a common perception that New Age-ism is a twentieth century phenomenon, that is not at all accurate.  Our traditions can be traced back to many sources.  Some of our foundational influences include Meister Eckhart, Emanuel Swedenborg, Mary Baker Eddy, Saint Francis, Paracelsus, Franz Mesmer and William Blake.   The Neo-Platonism of Percy Shelly.  Baudelaire’s hedonistic cosmology.  Folk traditions like bibliomancy, table knocking and possession by the Holy Spirit.  Spiritualism from Hebrew rabbinical tradition and alchemy from Greece and Mesopotamia.  In Colonial America, lay people accused their black servants of practicing “voodoo,??? but the construction of poppets and similar charms actually derives from European folk magic.  These forms of witchcraft, along with other black magic practices like forging “agreements??? with Satan and reading bible passages backwards, were largely practiced by unhappy white settlers, and have mingled with the more aristocratic traditions of alchemy and hermetics to form the occult foundation of the New Age.

A key change, of course, occurred during the era of “the moderns??? (1875-1914), when H.P. Blavatsky began introducing Hindu cosmology to the New Age.  Subsequently, the idea of syncretism was born and other teachers began appropriating beliefs from China and Tibet and ultimately from Native American traditions.  The point I am trying to make is that we are part of a tradition that predates Blavatsky.  Most of what modern "plastic shamans" sell as native tradition is really European in origin.  What you overlook is that these disguised European beliefs form a coherent system that is itself an authentic spiritual tradition. 

As for accusations of charlatanry, they are valid only from within the conceptual framework of modern science and biomedicine.  Sure, there's no concrete evidence to support faith healing, Tarot reading, astral projection or alien abduction.  But from a biomedical standpoint, most traditional medicine is also "fraudulent," including the practices of Native Americans.  You could say, with equal irrelevance, that the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation is form of charlatanry.  Likewise, many of the progenitors of the New Age were racists and confidence men.  But from a modern standpoint the Aztecs were also racists and their leaders confidence men.  And the Christians, whom some of your users seem to think represent the real Euramerican cultural legacy, waged genocide against the arabs and the Native Americans.  That strikes me as a little more extreme than Rudolf Steiner writing about the virtues of the Germanic people.  At least he had the sense to skip town when the Nazis started killing people.

In reality, the philosophical origin of syncretism (a.k.a. cultural imperialism) lies not with Blavatsky, but in the Scientific Enlightenment.  The Scientific Enlightenment taught that we should examine our cultural traditions critically with an eye towards mechanistic verifiability.  This ultimately led to the practice of ethno-botany, where Euramerican scientists study indigenous people in order to synthesize new chemical compounds out of their traditional medicines (a practice that, from the comments I read in the ayahuasca thread, I imagine many of you object to).  In a way, New Age syncretism is like a twisted form of Spiritual ethno-botany, seeking to extract the "spiritual essence" from the cultural traditions of other people.

What all of this means is that ultimately what is wrong with the New Age is what is wrong with the world as a whole.  There are a lot of bad actors out there, both those who defraud Native Americans by stealing their traditions and those who defraud consumers by selling them fantastical beliefs and phony healings.  But the New Age is, like it or not, an intrinsic part of the global Euramerican culture.  In many ways, it is the New Age, not Christianity, that is the authentic spiritual tradition of white people.  While wicca itself may be an artifact of the modern era, there is a magico-religious tradition in Europe, largely Christian in its presuppositions but also influenced by sympathetic magic and pre-Christian religions, from which the modern “New Age??? material largely derives.  Thus while criticism of New Age appropriation of other cultures is certainly valid, criticism of the New Age as such is not, at least not more so than any other religion.

That said, I would like to make another important point.  The situation of Native Americans with regard to fraud and exploitation is not a unique one.  As the existence of Tibet became well known in the early part of the twentieth century, people all over the world tried to capitalize on its reputation as a center of spiritual enlightenment.  Not the least was Blavatsky's follower Alice Bailey, who claimed to be in contact with a Tibetan master.  Yet despite this fakery, the Tibetan people have largely overcome attempts at appropriation.  They have done this not by establishing a bureau of the Tibetan government to police authentic Tibetan teachings, but rather by making knowledge of Tibetan culture so readily available that anyone who cares can learn to distinguish fraud from genuine article.

Like those of Native Americans, traditional Tibetan religious practices are very secretive.  Tibetans have kept the esoteric core of their practices out of the public eye, but both Tibetan authors and Euramerican authors working with the cooperation of Tibetans have produced a monumental body of work about the non-secretive, linguistic and artistic components of Tibetan culture.  Perhaps some of the energy that you are all investing in making sure we know what is NOT authentic Native American culture would be better spent doing the opposite, teaching us what is.  It is more effective to respond to our ignorance by educating us than by calling us names.

My whole life I had been skeptical towards any New Age teachers or materials that claimed a link to Native American traditions.  But I met a number of bona fide Native Americans (one of them a friend of Maria Yraceburu) who believed that “Native American traditions??? could be fruitfully blended with Taoism and the Egyptian pantheon.  When I read Mehl Madrona’s Coyote Medicine, I found that his description of what he called the “Native American cosmology??? precisely matched the worldview I have held since I was a child.  I met a couple of Native Americans who called themselves shamans and who readily encouraged white people to learn about these evidently fraudulent practices.  I decided, finally, to do some investigating.  And came across this site, which basically confirmed what I had thought before, that Native American traditions do not mix with New Age practices and beliefs.

I am perfectly happy to learn that.  I have no interest in appropriating your culture, just as I have no interest in pretending to be a phony Tibetan sorcerer or in converting to authentic Tibetan Buddhism.  I would, however, be happy to learn about your people and their traditions.  I recognize, of course, that I have no right to demand that from you, but I suggest a) that trying to attain greater visibility of your authentic cultural practices would be a more effective means of educating Euramericans than creating a website devoted to unmasking fakers and ridiculing people who are acting largely out of ignorance; and b) that you make more of an effort to understand our traditions before you call us “fake??? and “plastic.???

Throughout your site, people privilege the notion of authentic cultural traditions, and suggest that if we whites desire spirituality we should look into our own ancestral traditions, Christian or pagan.  But that devalues our own experience of being spiritual ‘orphans,’ people who have been cut off from tradition and must recreate meaning in our own lives.  Many of you seem to look on this ‘orphan’ state as a personal failing and the cause of the emptiness of our lives (when in fact it is a symptom of that emptiness), not to mention a slight against our ancestors and a refusal of our duties as children.  However, this search for meaning was not chosen, but thrust upon us by our dismal, materialistic, information-saturated lives.  That meaning will not be found in a return to the reactionary and patriarchal traditions of our roots, but through a reinvigoration of what is essential and good in humanity.  That is what motivates the admittedly misguided search for secrets in “shamanism??? and Native American religions; people are looking for wisdom from a time before humanity became corrupted by greed.  Unfortunately that time, if it exists at all, does so only in some possible future.

As I close, I want to touch on a few other points about syncretism.

1) 'Authenticity' is a modern concept.  All cultures are syncretic.

No culture ever exists in a vacuum, and history shows us time and time again that cultures borrow from one another without apologies.  Conquerors usurp the culture of the conquered, and sometimes borrow it.  Cultures evolve constantly, and what is seen as 'new fangled' or 'revisionist' becomes canonical in a few hundred years.

2) 'Spirit' itself plays fast and loose.

Some of us feel ourselves to be in contact with transcendent entities on a frequent basis, and receive messages from those entities.  Those messages often include symbolism borrowed from all sorts of cultures, and weave these things together in bizarre and often insightful ways.  Spirit rarely speaks to us in the way that we wish to be spoken to.  It shows little respect for our personal idiosyncrasies and pet ideas.  Often it shows little regard for human morals, laws, cultures and even human life.  Yet we know we are bound to it by duty and by oath.  If spirit presents itself to us in forms that are "stolen," why shouldn't we simply accept those appearances and do its work?  If your people preserve practices that venerate the spirits in ways that are hundreds of years old, but we venerate those same spirits in ways they taught us yesterday, which practice is more authentic?

In the case of, for instance, ayahuasca, one board member repeatedly said "this is not your people's medicine."  Well, what about Santo Daime?  Is it their medicine?  Meister Irineu was black, and no one knows if any authentic indigenous people gave him permission to use the daime.  But his church has become a living part of modern Brazilian culture, and there is unquestionable value in that.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 09:02:41 pm by qirin »

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3290
Re: the new age
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2008, 09:45:48 pm »
Many "pagans ...  heathens ... Christians" would be quite offended at your calling them "New Age". By any spelling.

Voudoun is not "New Age" either. But all of the above traditions are ripped off by Nuagers. And the situation has degraded to the point that there *are* nuagers who call themselves those things - much to the dismay of the traditionals in those communities.

The bottom line of the New Age is eclecticism, and the belief in a "personal spirituality" that is accountable to no one but the conscience (or lack thereof) of the individual seeker. This stands in stark contrast with the structures of traditional cultures and religions, which are community based and, well, traditional.

I'm not trying to insult you here, but it seems clear to me that, while you seem to have read about *some* of the movements you mention here, you aren't familiar enough with any of the community-based, indigenous ones to comment on them.

And I doubt many people here are particularly interested in your trying to give some dignity to a movement that at its core is based on cultural theft and the willful ignorance of, and violation of, the standards of the religions they steal from.

This is a site dedicated to fighting cultural appropriation, not defending it.



ETA:
Most of what modern "plastic shamans" sell as native tradition is really European in origin.  What you overlook is that these disguised European beliefs form a coherent system that is itself an authentic spiritual tradition.

No, eclectic conglomerations, whether based on out-of-context, half-understood fragments lifted from diverse European cultures and slammed together in a framework of fantasy, or upon out-of-context, totally-misunderstood fragments stolen from diverse Native American cultures and put in a foreign framework, are not "an authentic spiritual tradition."  That approach lacks cultural and spiritual coherence. It lacks the organic power of tradition. It will be filled with internal conflicts. The extent to which it "works" for individual Nuagers is usually because they are simply self-hypnotizing into a state where they feel better about themselves; it is rare for that approach to make any genuine contacts with the spirits of anyone's ancestors or the lands where they live.

Changes that happen in cultures gradually, over many generations, after careful thought and consideration and consensus among elders of those cultures, can not be compared to the modern mercurial appropriation where people change religious approaches from year to year, even month to month, blending and remixing bits and pieces from radically different cultures at will.

Traditional religions and eclectic, individual spirituality are totally different animals.



E(A)TA:
Quote
... there is a magico-religious tradition in Europe, largely Christian in its presuppositions but also influenced by sympathetic magic and pre-Christian religions, from which the modern “New Age??? material largely derives.

No, the "New Age" material is a direct descendant of Christian Science, with a conglomeration of things from any culture that didn't defend itself staunchly enough or run away fast enough. The main religions stolen from for it's "foundations" are East Indian. "New Age" attitudes and approaches have no more to do with authentic European folk traditions than they do with Native American ones.

[I think this thread belongs in Etc, not Welcome and News]
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 03:38:38 am by Kathryn »

Offline qirin

  • Posts: 19
Re: the new age
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2008, 10:53:33 pm »
Many "pagans ...  heathens ... Christians" would be quite offended at your calling them "New Age". By any spelling.

the point is that there are many people who call themselves christians, pagans and heathens who ALSO self-identify as new age.  I do not self-identify as those things, and I am not defending that self-identification.  I am just stating a fact.

to my knowledge, paganism and heathenism are reconstructed religions, not continuous traditional lineages.  it was the work of new age scholars that sparked interest in the reconstruction of pagan and heathen religions.  the people of scandinavia and the british isles had universally converted to christianity.  and anyone who believes in the bible is a christian.

Quote
Voudoun is not "New Age" either.

I agree one hundred percent and I never said it was.  you need to read my arguments more carefully.

Quote
The bottom line of the New Age is eclecticism, and the belief in a "personal spirituality" that is accountable to no one but the conscience (or lack thereof) of the individual seeker. This stands in stark contrast with the structures of traditional cultures and religions, which are community based and, well, traditional.

the essence of the argument I made was that the whole eclecticism thing is a more recent development, and that the core characteristics of new age spirituality, with the main exceptions of reincarnation and the chakra system, are derived from european occultism and not the religions that they purport to rip off.  I am not defending the rip-offs, but the genuine article, which is a form of european and christian-derived occultism that does not wear anyone else's cultural trappings, e.g. belief in angel channeling, the golden dawn, astrology and astrological magic, chaos magic and so on.  I call it "New Age" as a recognition of historical fact, that the present interest in this subject is the product of the new religion movements of the 1890s, 1920s and 1960s.

Quote
I'm not trying to insult you here, but it seems clear to me that, while you seem to have read about *some* of the movements you mention here, you aren't familiar enough with any of the community-based, indigenous ones to comment on them.

there's sufficient vitriol in your statements to make it clear that you _are_ trying to insult me.  however, it doesn't seem like you fully read my argument.  I did not comment on _any_ indigenous cultures, except for the briref mention of santo daime at the end.  I once referenced the words pagan, christian and heathen, which seems to have set you off, but the bulk of my letter is about european occultism and nothing else.  and that is a subject with which I have a deep familiarity, communally and academically.

Quote
And I doubt many people here are particularly interested in your trying to give some dignity to a movement that at its core is based on cultural theft and the willful ignorance of, and violation of, the standards of the religions they steal from.

at its core the new age is NOT based on cultural theft but on european mysticism, and accusing ALL new agers of cultural appropriation is biased and offensive.

Quote
This is a site dedicated to fighting cultural appropriation, not defending it.

I am not defending cultural appropriation.  I never once said that any of the things you people object to on this site is okay.  I did in a couple of places point to the faultiness of the logic some of the people here use.

Quote
"New Age" attitudes and approaches have no more to do with authentic European folk traditions than they do with Native American ones.

that's untrue.  the main european folk magic traditions that were brought to the united states involved the construction of charms (i.e. sympathetic magic), herbalism and the construction of sachets, prayer to specific saints for specific purposes, astrology, bibliomancy, scriptural interpretation of events, and various forms of black magic.  these practices are well documented, in fact colonial americans were a profoundly spiritual and magic-oriented people.

you are also overlooking the influence of mesmer and swedenborg, who have more to do with modern energy work than chinese medicine.  christian science is just one piece among many.

the single biggest influence on modern new age thought after blavatsky and maybe paramahansa yogananda was aleister crowley, and crowley's work is derived from masonry and the various quasi-rosicrucian organizations of 19th century france.

Quote
That approach lacks cultural and spiritual coherence. It lacks the organic power of tradition. It will be filled with internal conflicts. The extent to which it "works" for individual Nuagers is usually because they are simply self-hypnotizing into a state where they feel better about themselves; it is rare for that approach to make any genuine contacts with the spirits of anyone's ancestors or the lands where they live.

this is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about when I said I find a lot of what people say on this board insulting.  here you are imposing your own definition of "spiritual coherence" on a living religious tradition, judging our, as you put it, personal spiritual practice according to your norms.  that's a pretty elitist attitude and it's not going to help you if your goal is to get new age people to stop appropriating your traditions.

my family is a-religious.  the closest thing I have to a genuine religion is the new age, because it permeates my culture.  I have worked long and hard to identify what is not appropriated in it (the european occultist strands) and what was willingly given (some of the yogic and buddhist material was brought to the united states by authentic teachers, not stolen.  and many of those teachers are themselves syncretic, e.g. paramahansa yogananda)

you should try to understand why we have searched in the way we have, why we feel spiritually empty and how that motivates us in life instead of just judging and attacking us.  that's my point.

I realize that the theft of indigenous spirituality is unjustifiable.  I am NOT trying to defend it.  what I am trying to say is that there are components to the New Age that have nothing to do with cultural appropriation, and there are people in that movement who are genuinely trying to work at the project of recreating community in our scattered society and who have no itnerest in ripping you off, and whose efforts you are merely belittling.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 03:39:22 am by Kathryn »

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3290
Re: the new age
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2008, 11:04:04 pm »
... it was the work of new age scholars that sparked interest in the reconstruction of pagan and heathen religions. 

Sorry, but that's just laughable. The only way that would makes sense would be if you're using "new age" to encompass every single member of a non-Abrahmic religion, which is an incorrect definition, and certainly not the way the term is used on this site, nor in the world at large.

I would also suggest that what you perceive as "vitriol" is simply the fact that I, like others, am tired of hearing these same old arguments. We've heard it all before. Though I do concede you're coming up with some even more far-fetched ones than even I've encountered.

Laurel

  • Guest
Re: the new age
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2008, 11:12:17 pm »
No culture ever exists in a vacuum, and history shows us time and time again that cultures borrow from one another without apologies.  Conquerors usurp the culture of the conquered, and sometimes borrow it.   Cultures evolve constantly, and what is seen as 'new fangled' or 'revisionist' becomes canonical in a few hundred years.

Conquest doesn't seem to bother you very much.  It's not "borrowing."  Since the day certain Caucasians invented the concept of whiteness, we have stolen things we don't understand because they look exotic and pretty to us, twisted them out of shape and thrown them on the ground when we were done playing with them.  To call this borrowing and say it's OK is something like telling a rape victim she might as well lie back and enjoy it.  You can't skip blithely over 500 years of history and then go on to demand that Native Americans show you what you're doing wrong by showing you what they do right.  They've learned they have to hide the fine china when whitefolks come sniffing around, after all.

Nobody has a responsibility to teach you right from wrong.  You have a responsibility to learn.  You have a responsibility to develop your own shit detector and figure out how to avoid gurus.  This is one place you can learn.  Nobody has any obligation to put sugar in it for you. 
 
Finally, to borrow a Neopagan phrase, your UPG (or "entity message") means nothing to me or to anybody else but you.  It doesn't give you the right to do anything that demeans someone else's religion.  Given a "spirit message" that Coyote wanted you to run into a Catholic church during Mass and crap on the altar, would you do so?

(And why are spirits that show "little regard for human life" worthy of human worship or contact?)

I'm a "spiritual orphan" too.  I think this means it is up to me to find my own meaning in life.  It's just as easy to do this in a respectful way as it is in a bad way.  In fact it's easier, because my life has less meaning when I'm busy lying to myself by defending my mistreatment of others.  "Borrowing" things without permission is part of a long "reactionary and patriarchal tradition."  Running off to try something new because we don't want to clean up our mess is not breaking from that tradition but continuing it.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 11:15:20 pm by Laurel »

Offline qirin

  • Posts: 19
Re: the new age
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2008, 11:24:07 pm »
Conquest doesn't seem to bother you very much.

nothing could be further from the truth.  why do you think I came here in the first place?  I discovered this site while I was trying to figure out of I was being lied to by some people, real living native americans, who were representing certain things to me as being their religion.

lots of indian gurus came to the united states from the 1950s and on to profit off us gullible new agers

Quote
To call this borrowing and say it's OK is something like telling a rape victim she might as well lie back and enjoy it.

when I wrote those words I was thinking more specifically of the transition of cultural artifacts between, for instance, the chinese and the koreans, or the mayans and the aztecs, or the romans and their conquered peoples.

Quote
You can't skip blithely over 500 years of history and then go on to demand that Native Americans show you what you're doing wrong by showing you what they do right.  They've learned they have to hide the fine china when whitefolks come sniffing around, after all.

I don't disagree, but at this point I think hiding the china is making it easier for them to be exploited.  I am not trying to skip blithely over anything.

Quote
Nobody has a responsibility to teach you right from wrong.  You have a responsibility to learn.

that's an odd comment since everyone else around here are such staunch supporters of communalism.  it is the responsibility of my society, my parents and my teachers to help me learn right from wrong.

Quote
You have a responsibility to develop your own shit detector and figure out how to avoid gurus.  This is one place you can learn.  Nobody has any obligation to put sugar in it for you.

no, but it would behoove people to realize that your definition of new age and my definition of new age might not be the same.
 
Quote
Given a "spirit message" that Coyote wanted you to run into a Catholic church during Mass and crap on the altar, would you do so?

no I would never do something like that, because I would never trust a spirit that told me to do something like that.  but for someone else, who has been in contact with an entity for a long time, the situation could be different.

Quote
(And why are spirits that show "little regard for human life" worthy of human worship or contact?)

because the world doesnt revolve around us.

Quote
I'm a "spiritual orphan" too.  I think this means it is up to me to find my own meaning in life.

that is exactly what I said in my long essay thing.

Quote
It's just as easy to do this in a respectful way as it is in a bad way.  In fact it's easier, because my life has less meaning when I'm busy lying to myself by defending my mistreatment of others.  It's "borrowing" things without permission that's part of a long "reactionary and patriarchal tradition," not running off to try something new because we don't want to clean up our mess.

I don't disagree with anything that you are saying.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 11:36:28 pm by qirin »

Offline qirin

  • Posts: 19
Re: the new age
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2008, 11:26:29 pm »
Quote
Sorry, but that's just laughable. The only way that would makes sense would be if you're using "new age" to encompass every single member of a non-Abrahmic religion, which is an incorrect definition, and certainly not the way the term is used on this site, nor in the world at large.

Margaret Murray, Gerald Gardner, Blavatsky's "Isis Unveiled."  "the new age" is historically linked to theosophy and european occultism, and so anyone who takes inspiration from either of those sources counts as new age in my book.  the only people I know of who don't fit the bill were the gaelic reconstructionists of the irish revolution, but its important to note that some of them (e.g. yeats) also belonged to the other camp.

Quote
We've heard it all before. Though I do concede you're coming up with some even more far-fetched ones than even I've encountered.

huh.  well that's kind of rude.  thanks for dismissing my heartfelt perspective and my life's work as being the same old crap.  especially since, even if MOST of what I say is wrong, there is a genuine point underneath it all.  anyway since obviously no one really cares I will go away soon.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 11:31:42 pm by qirin »

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3290
Re: the new age
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2008, 11:28:52 pm »
Margaret Murray, Gerald Gardner, Blavatsky's "Isis Unveiled"

Not Reconstructionists. To call them such shows you don't understand how the term is used in contemporary Polytheistic Reconstructionism.

Offline qirin

  • Posts: 19
Re: the new age
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2008, 11:33:18 pm »
Margaret Murray, Gerald Gardner, Blavatsky's "Isis Unveiled"

Not Reconstructionists. To call them such shows you don't understand how the term is used in contemporary Polytheistic Reconstructionism.

I wasn't calling them reconstructionists, I was calling them new agers.  they were all obviously CONstructionists.  nothing any of them wrote has ever been verified by anyone, but it was their specious works that helped generate interest and lead to the real work of reconstruction.

I think maybe the reason why you think what I am saying is far fetched is that the fact that you have heard so many arguments so many other times is clouding your reading, that you aren't fully understanding where I am coming from and you aren't giving me nearly enough credit.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 03:36:24 am by Kathryn »

Offline Barnaby_McEwan

  • Posts: 861
Re: the new age
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2008, 11:40:32 pm »
What you overlook is that these disguised European beliefs form a coherent system that is itself an authentic spiritual tradition...

...'Authenticity' is a modern concept. All cultures are syncretic.

Quote
When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.

(Lewis Carroll - Through the Looking-Glass)

Offline qirin

  • Posts: 19
Re: the new age
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2008, 11:43:34 pm »
What you overlook is that these disguised European beliefs form a coherent system that is itself an authentic spiritual tradition...

...'Authenticity' is a modern concept. All cultures are syncretic.

Quote
When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.

(Lewis Carroll - Through the Looking-Glass)


I am totally aware of the multiple uses of the word 'authenticity' in my argument.  I am saying that certain aspects of the new age represent a tradition that is authentic in the same way as any other religion; however, that notion of authenticity, whether applied to the new age or any other religion, is itself a modern concept.  there is nothing paradoxical in that.

Offline Defend the Sacred

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3290
Re: the new age
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2008, 11:47:51 pm »
I think maybe the reason why you think what I am saying is far fetched is that the fact that you have heard so many arguments so many other times is clouding your reading, that you aren't fully understanding where I am coming from and you aren't giving me nearly enough credit.

... So. The reason you don't make sense is because we have experience reading the defensive posts of Nuagers.  And experience "clouds" our ability to read.

Well, it's a more novel defense than the usual racist accusations of ignorance.

I think we understand all too well where you're coming from. Where you're wrong is that you think that understanding you means we'll agree with you.


Offline Moma_porcupine

  • Posts: 681
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
Re: the new age
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2008, 11:54:34 pm »
Hi Quirin and welcome

I don't have time right now to read through all this slowly so I hope people will forgive me if I have missed some of what is being said here . Quirin I appreciate that you are thinking about all this and you seem to be trying to express your point of veiw respectfully. 

For me the thing that is most offensive about the New Age belief system is reflected in the choice of the word "new". I agree with some of what you seem to be saying, in so far as I think there is some fundamental aspects of human experience that are reflected in pretty much every religion or Spiritual path. But these fundamentals are not "New". They are constants. The whole underlying culture behind "New Age" is one of consumerism and a constant and insatiable hunger for new consumer goods or experiences.   

It seems to me that cultural assumption that the world is a consumable commodity, and that each individual is entitled to consume with no social responsibility, has become intertwined with all the older mystical roots of various traditions. The cultural background that led people to call these ancient fundamentals "new" and place such value on this so called "newness" is the same assumptions that allowed Europeans to colonize so many other lands, justifying this by calling it "progress" (new) and it is this same cutural background of consumerism that leads to the ugly behavior of people feeling entitled to help themselves to out of context peices of cultures that are not appropriate to their own lifes circumstances.  Sadly and ironically this tends to destroy the very thing they were hoping to gain in doing so - a more harmonious wholistic relationship with the world they live in.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 12:03:20 am by Moma_porcupine »

Offline qirin

  • Posts: 19
Re: the new age
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2008, 12:30:51 am »
Quote
The reason you don't make sense is because we have experience reading the defensive posts of Nuagers.  And experience "clouds" our ability to read.

that begs the question that what I am saying doesn't make sense, which I don't think you have cogently illustrated.

Quote
I think we understand all too well where you're coming from. Where you're wrong is that you think that understanding you means we'll agree with you.

no I don't assume that.

here's the readers digest version of my argument:

a) not all new age beliefs involve cultural imperialism.  some of them (e.g. crystal matrices, angel channeling, alien hierarchies, belief in an immanent personal spiritual power, tarot reading, candle magic, ceremonial and sympathetic magic, european-style astrology, etc.) came down to the modern era by direct lines of succession through european strands of occultism.  these are the strands of "european ideas" that many board members assert (correctly) that the (evil, commercial aspect of the) new age smuggles into the cultural traditions it exploits.

b) these european strands of occultism were an integral part of religious movements of the early twentieth century which had a profound impact on religious practice throughout the united states, including mainstream christianity.  since these movements propounded the idea of some kind of cosmic shift, they are seen as precursors to the modern "new age," and thus in a sense almost everyone is now a "new ager," in that our belief systems were radically influenced by these movements.

c) since these things are the case, calling ALL new agers frauds and counterfeit and unspiritual is offensive, as is using the word "nuager" in a derisive way.

there are certainly objections that can be made to these statements, including the very cogent ones made by laurel about the long history of european cultural imperialism. but I am pretty sure the statements themselves "make sense."

I do not defend exploitation.  I do not support syncretism except in those instances were it is welcomed by both parties.  I do support historical reconstructionism and the preservation of traditional belief systems.  I also recognize the historical fact that I am a new ager.

since you have made so many attacks against me, I will point out that the problem with YOUR attitude is that you are attacking the people closest to you and not the actual root of the problem, which is the global corporate state and the plastic shamans themselves.  in fact, you are attacking the very people who are most likely to actually listen to and help you.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 12:43:42 am by qirin »

Offline qirin

  • Posts: 19
Re: the new age
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2008, 12:42:17 am »
For me the thing that is most offensive about the New Age belief system is reflected in the choice of the word "new". I agree with some of what you seem to be saying, in so far as I think there is some fundamental aspects of human experience that are reflected in pretty much every religion or Spiritual path. But these fundamentals are not "New". They are constants. The whole underlying culture behind "New Age" is one of consumerism and a constant and insatiable hunger for new consumer goods or experiences.   

I agree with you completely.  the use of the word "new" is deeply problematic, and I only use the name "new age" because society as a whole uses it, and the people on this board use it.

I think, tho, that the insatiable hunger for consumer goods and new experiences comes from the fact that the consumer goods consistently fail to deliver, and we have not been taught the right way to look for meaning.  we want wholeness and belonging, and we have been taught to be consumerist and so we keep looking for those things in trinkets and books because we don't realize that the real thing comes from community and love.

Quote
The cultural background that led people to call these ancient fundamentals "new" and place such value on this so called "newness" is the same assumptions that allowed Europeans to colonize so many other lands, justifying this by calling it "progress" (new) and it is this same cutural background of consumerism that leads to the ugly behavior of people feeling entitled to help themselves to out of context peices of cultures that are not appropriate to their own lifes circumstances.

yeah.  I came from a background where this new age stuff was all around me.  and it appealed to something I wanted, to this sense of longing for a more heart-centered existence.  but over time I realized that so much of it was based in lies and exploitation, and it was really difficult not to just give up on spirituality altogether.  but i think in the heart of this group of people who get called "new age," there are some of us who are really trying to heal the wounds inflicted on us and by our culture.

so the "age" is only "new" for us.  we are trying to start a new age for ourselves, because we are so disgusted by the things our culture has done that it has left us feeling alone and horrified by the world.

I would never presume that I have anything to teach people of another tradition about spirituality.  I just don't want my spirituality taken away from me.

Quote
Sadly and ironically this tends to destroy the very thing they were hoping to gain in doing so - a more harmonious wholistic relationship with the world they live in.

yeah that is really true.

thank you for taking the time to write your opinions.  I appreciate your insight and kindness.