the new age

[Laurel]

and I used the word "new age" on purpose.  [...] these people are so enraged by those two words that anything that comes after it has to be attacked and dismantled.

I'm not enraged, I just think nuagers are silly and, at times, dangerous.  That isn't a knee-jerk reaction, it's a response I've learned from talking to dozens, perhaps hundreds, of defenders of the so-called New Age. I don't give (for example) people who say vaccines cause autism the benefit of the doubt either. 

again, I think everyone took my statement the wrong way.  I was not saying that Native people should under any circumstance share [...] your spiritual traditions.  I simply meant that devoting some energy to educating people about your languages and histories and artistic traditions [...] could go a long way. 

Again, you want others to take responsibility for your education.  I see that a lot in modern life.  Men who are sexist expect feminists to educate them.  White people who don't want to examine white privilege expect people of color to educate them.  It's just not their/our job.   

in any case, I am glad they are keeping this here (tho probably just out of spite) so that their unconscienable and irrational behavior is preserved for visitors to stumble upon.

You seem flabbergasted that anyone would A) have the temerity to take your words as they are written and/or B) disagree with you.  To call that unconscionable seems a bit irrational.  Maybe even spiteful. 

you guys talk about the need to defend your culture, and your willingness to fight to do so.  so your jaws shouldn't drop when other people follow suit.  the plastic shamans will keep coming, and people like me, who hope to find some kind of middle ground, will keep coming too.  for %!&#@*'s sake, deal with it.

This board exists so that people who care about this might "deal with it."  Cue passive-agressive foot-stomping childishness in 5...4...3...

that's all I tried to do here, honor myself and my experience.  I am sorry that you are all too hurt and narrow-minded see that.

god be with you

Was that the nuage version of the "I'll pray for you" that really means something ruder?  I think it was.

[qirin]

Was that the nuage version of the "I'll pray for you" that really means something ruder?  I think it was.

no it was an expression that comes from my heritage (english; it's a phrase that "goodbye" is a contraction of... "god be wi' ye"), that is meant to show affection and goodwill. meaning that while I disagree philosophically with MANY of the things said here, I still respect you and your work and wish you all the best.  honestly.

Again, you want others to take responsibility for your education.  I see that a lot in modern life.  Men who are sexist expect feminists to educate them.  White people who don't want to examine white privilege expect people of color to educate them.  It's just not their/our job.

well I am a feminist and have written about heterocentrism and white privilege, in the new age and in american history.  however, I was speaking PRAGMATICALLY.  I was not trying to imply that anyone had the responsibility to do anything.

I don't really want to argue about this anymore.

I think I have raised some valid objections to attitudes I have seen here.

I think that prejudice is prejudice, no matter whom it is directed at, and that treating "new agers" as some massive conglomeration of weak minded fools is just as arrogant and socially problematic as it would be if I assumed that any one of you spoke for native/NDN people as a whole.  you evidently disagree.

I think you have all behaved in ways that are far more arrogant and childish than I have (though I don't deny that those epithets could be applied to some of things I have said), and I think the record bears that out.  you disagree.

no doubt many of you are angry at me for wasting your precious time, and that is your right, just as it was mine to express my feelings publicly when I felt the need to do so.  fine.  let's drop it.  anyone else want to have the last word, go ahead.

[Laurel]

Not going for the last word--just wanted to tell you I appreciate your Starr Fuentes post.

[180IQ]

I very rarely have time to read this forum but this thread caught my eye and I read the OP and of the first few replies to it, and skimmed the rest. Others have responded much more eloquently than I could or would have time to even if I could, but I'd still like to add something.

The persistent mental image I got while reading qirin's posts was of the courtroom scene in "My Cousin Vinny" where Vinny (Joe Pesci) is at the bench objecting to the calling of an unexpected witness for the prosecution, and the response of Judge Haller (Fred Gwynne) was: "Mr. Gambini, that was a lucid, intelligent, well-thought out objection. Overrulled!"

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi qirin -

The first thing you must understand is that the "new age" is an industry.

You can write me for a copy of "Amazing Stories", my guide inside that industry and how it operates, and I''ll send it to you free.

After you have read it, then come back here and share your thoughts.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas and
"Amazing Stories"

PS: Litttle Old Man - thanks for sharing your guidance on anger.

[Defend the Sacred]

The first thing you must understand is that the "new age" is an industry.

Good point. Essential point.

[debbieredbear]

It is a good point! They make tons of money selling all manor of things. So much of it is scam stuff. I'd say you can't make this stuff up, but obviously they DO!

[wolfhawaii]

I took Mr. Grondine up on his offer and read his article he sent...it took me a bit to grasp the trend of where it was going, but when I did I was pretty amazed at all the connections and sources he listed. I have read a fair amount of books in the genre he discusses and it was a pretty enlightening read. It confirms what i have seen myself....that questionable people and frauds tend to group together and support each other. Some of the books he refers to I own or have read, and while I am interested in esoteric knowledge some of what is sold is beyond lunatic fringe. Thank you EP Grondine for researching and writing on this subject.

[Superdog]

I left this one alone a long time.  Personally I don't have a problem with Qirin's argument.  He's just misplaced it.  Qirin has objection to lumping the negative activities we object against here under the umbrella of "new age" because he defines himself and others as "new age" without association with any of these negative activities. 

He seems to be fighting for a new definition of "new age" and make it a positive one.  I don't disregard Qirin's statement there.  If we want frauds to quit scamming others in the name of "new age" religions then taking that term and distancing it from fraudulent activities would be productive.  I agree with him there. 

However, he concedes the term "New Age" is a modern one, but he doesn't consider that the reason it's a modern term is because it has to do with commerce.  Just as "Cure All" was the catch phrase of medicine shows "New Age" has been defined by the commercial industry that created it.

A modern corollary would be the genre of "Celtic Music" in America.  When asked to define what Celtic music is you'll get different answers from different people.  The term itself was not in regular existence until the mid-90's when the music industry began to cash in on the popularity of music under the title of "World Music" which included everything under the sun that was not a clearly defined genre of Western Music.  The Riverdance explosion had a lot to do with a sudden surge of interest in music from Celtic regions so the genre of "Celtic Music" was created by record executives.  But the question then must be answered What is Celtic music?  Is it Irish music, is it Scottish, music from Newfoundland, traditional, contemporary???  The answer is all of the above and it's left to listener to figure it out no matter what the music is.  This range of definition is pretty varied.  Traditional community based Irish folk music is considered the same genre as a modern day artist who raps in Gaelic.  Most Americans would think of Celtic music as rocky shores with crashing waves and a penny whistle playing a soft tune...if you look at the Celtic Music section in an American music store you'll find 9 out of 10 of the CD's in that section play on that kind of imagery or something similar, but you'll also find groups that sing modern rock music with a Irish twist (i.e. The Dropkick Murphy's from Boston)...so truly the definition of "Celtic Music" is what will sell the most under a genre called "Celtic Music". 

This wide range of definition is also true of the term "New Age".  For some people it is exactly as you define Qirin and nobody here has a problem with it, but not all people define New Age as you see it (in fact...the vast majority wouldn't define it that way) and you must agree that there are those who've commercialized it to a point as to remove all meaning from it....i.e. frauds.  The name of this forum is New Age FRAUDS and plastic shaman.  It's those that would steal the same thing you've embraced and sully it's meaning that we wish to expose and I'm surprised that you take the tactic of attempting to educate those that in the end are on your side in such a condescending manner. 

Take away your offense Qirin.  See "New Age" for what it is....a selling point...a commercial industry.

Superdog

[Moma_porcupine]

I've been continuing to think about this conversation as I think the underlying belief systems of people who support exploiters and frauds is important to explore and address.

I have known quite a few people to be involved in New Age beliefs and practices. I think most of these people have good intentions , and most of them are nice enough people, though under the surface I generally find people with an intrest in New Age beliefs to also have a general attitude of self absorbstion and self indulgence.

The "problem" as I see it is that the backbone of true religions seems to be a road map of our duties and responsibilities to our community and the bigger picture.

I just don't see where the New Age beliefs have this backbone. The standard new Age lines like " No judgement" &" It's all meant to be" , & " I am a wonderfiul perfect being entitled to all the love and abundance and everything I want" & " The coming changes and dawn of the New Age will fix everything " together with a presentation which reminds me of buffet style all you can eat banquet of exotic dishes from all over the planet , doesn't seem to have much to do with underlying morals and values . The new Age seems based in beliefs which justify self gratification .

New Age beliefs seem to put peoples imagined right to "self improvement" and the glory of progress ahead of all else . This all important over riding goal doesn't seem to be much different than the belief in manifest destiny, and both are used as a justification for helping oneself to things that belong to another people.

I have rarely seen people who gravitate to New Age beliefs also involved in any sustained committed work towards making the world a better place - ( sorry visualizations without hands on work don't count) 

New Age beliefs allow people to claim to be concerned about the environment but at the same time justify flying to the other side of the Earth to "Heal the Planet". 

People with newage beliefs typically imagine they support indigenous peoples, but they only do this in so far as indigenous people cater to their desires. As soon as Native peoples try and create some self protective boundaries and say NO the  support for indigenous people evaporates and the underlying assupmtions of White privildge become apparent.   

The other thing that bugs me about New Age is it seems so focused on attaining a thrill through the unusual and sensational , which is one of the things that seems to define a non spiritually based consumer culture.  I believe true Spiritual insight sees and cherishes the value of the ordinary.

I would agree with Qirin that some people do find their way to some sort of healing through being involved in some sort of New Age practice.

Partly i think this is the placebo effect

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/100_heal.html

Partly I think people use New Age practices kind of like a Christmas tree. It is something to get together around that offers an experience that is less shallow and lonely than going to a shopping mall , but not so removed from this to be unfamiliar.

For these reasons I would agree the New Age is mainly a commercial industry, but it is human beings with human needs that fuel commercial industries. The needs are real, but I don't see New Age practices as a true religion or Spiritual path ...  I think is is truly sad that people are so lost they turn to Spiritual consumerism.

[wyrdbrew]

For these reasons I would agree the New Age is mainly a commercial industry, but it is human beings with human needs that fuel commercial industries. The needs are real, but I don't see New Age practices as a true religion or Spiritual path ...  I think is is truly sad that people are so lost they turn to Spiritual consumerism.

The whole post was right on the mark and doesn't just apply to people who identify as "New Age" but a lot of people who call themselves pagan as well.  The concepts that you point at (responsibility to one's family and community, real work and effort)  are the basis of only very few groups in the various types of paganism.  Some of us have stepped up and made these self same criticisms and we mostly get shouted down.  The number of individuals in the pagan disunity who have publicly made these sorts of arguments is tiny.  I expect it to remain so.  These are not popular ideas.  When we bring them up they are not listened to. 

[E.P. Grondine]

qirin -

I saw you mention Blavatsky, along with a mistaken statement as to her role in the nuage.

Before you speak about Blavatsky, you really need to read my little history of the nuage.

It may save you much grief and wasted time. You are being deceived.

E.P. Grondine
"Amazing Stories"