Aztlán and the Aztecs

[koyoteh]

I think the question is “how do the Traditional People of your own Tribe judge who an elder is”.

thats a better way to put what you were trying to say. I am not sure they would even phrase it that way. But really you would have to ask them. I have not spenty any time way down there, nor do i plan to. My reality is here. For us hre the question is , how do we move forward here with the knowledge and awareness and the consciousness of who we know we are now ,and who we were and where we came from? Its a whole nother way to look at things, and its a way for us who are here to survive here. yes , others have gone down there and spent time , just not me. and no , a lot of our elders also have not spent any time down there.
 but I never said my elders were elders or traditional elders of my TRIBE. I said they were MY elders and elders of my GROUP. I have a hard time these days even using the word tribe cause , yes we are distant in so many ways, but multiply that by the thousansn upon thousands in our spread out population. We are not going to have any council of elders any time soon. AT least, not by the definition you have, where they represent all the people of my "tribe". Thats just a result of our history and the way things worked out.
 Down there, yes they do have THEIR elders, by i doubt even they would say they represent anyone else othere than their specific pueblo. Same goes for here, my elders here only are looked up to by us HERE. No where else.
  But there is a commonness for us here and them there, in that , it doesn't matter who's elders they are. There's no thing like some of us have like this saying " there's elders and then there's old people" . No . Thats not the way its supposed to be. It may be A reality (not THE reality ) for some today, because of how many old people and elders are fakes and sellouts, but thats not the way its supposed to be. It is about age for us. 52 is the age for eldership. So is the other kind of elder, just being older than someone is another kind of eldershiop. Kinda like the asians with their elder brother and elders sister.

[koyoteh]

I never said you or your people were fakes.  ( If you read any of my other threads you’d realize that).  From what I see, most of you and your people are Indian.  But that’s different then knowing the traditional beliefs of your tribe.  And your right, its not up to me or anyone else to judge here.  If your Mexica Tradional people accept your elders, then that’s all that counts.  Which is what I was trying to get at.

i understand what you mean that you didn't say that. But you did. Not directly. Not really referring to me. But you see, a lot of us do fall int.o the definitions you just gave as to who are fakes. You described fakes, and that description is a lot of those from my people. I don't agree that what you said makes someone fakes is true. I know you didn't mean it to be about us, but a lot of it is us. For you , that may be an unfortunate thing. and you may even feel bad for us knowing that this is the case. but don't be, its our reality. We have over 500 years of bullshit to deal with unlike those here of the north who have had it bad but nowhere near as long.
 Its still bullshit , but its at a diffferent stage. Had those of the north had about 300 years more of this bull , they'd be more like us.
Your people are in a stage we already passed through a long time ago, only we didn't get to stop there, our bull had to continue on longer. Thats a good thing for those here in the north, but it does lead to a lot of misunderstandings between our nations.
 I'm not taking it offensively though. I know what you mean and that you can really only speak in terms of your reality just as I do from mine. But if our peoples can begin to try to understand the realities and stages of other native nations we could do some great things together.

[koyoteh]

there's also this , when it comes to us mexicans, salvadorian, nicaraguans, or in general "raza" as some say.
YES we have mixed with the europeans in many ways. We all have. I won't get into that part.

Our native traditions have survived more than even a lot of us "raza" are aware of.
because even us "raza" have had a loss of identity and awareness of indigenous ways, we have lost the awareness of what even that really means.
First we need to ask ourselves what indigenous traditions and culture means to us.
FOOD? ALL of our "raza" food is native and traditional. Its not 'mexican'. Its pure native. The euros adopted OUR food.
Clothes? we have plenty of contributions there. so did the euros, but over half of traditional mexican apparel is pure native.
music? half of it came from the native. They may have new instruments now, but its all comes from the old native beats.
COWBOYS? we were the first cowboys. America got the cowboy from us.
LANGUAGE? MOST of the spanish language and most the english language HERE in the americas is NATIVE and from the NAHUATL. But this is never talked about. Instead those in authority call it LATINO or LATIN coming from the LATIN language. Yes latin in mixed in there, but its lating mixed in with the native.
RESo for my people its just a matter of looking deeper in what is right in front of us.

[koyoteh]

RELIGION?
I don't like catholicism because it is christian and it causes me a lot of pain just to be around it. BUT other christians say that catholicism is anything but christian -and they are right. They are right because catholicism here in the americas is maybe like 80% native. Mexican catholocism is pretty much MEXICA 'religion'.
Thats why they revere Jesus's Mother rather than Jesus himself. That virgin mary isn't jesus' mom. its Tonantzin - "our sacred mother EARTH". Jesus is Huitzilopochtli. The devil is Tetzcatlipoca. and so on. and then you got angels and saints and sometimes they all trade places as well.
our ancestors did this mix up intentionally as a survival tool. First to physically survive, second by hiding our culture within the european imagery we could decipher it later on. The CONCHEROS took charge of this.
I know you and others don't like books, but we do, and books have been written to illustrate this to all who are interested in this subject. The concheros can't come to your house or mine, but we can pick up a book with pictures and explanations and look at them yourself no matter where you are at. Its a matter of which books are the good ones.
 Here's one. "The Aztec Virgin"  by Jon Mini -written and collected info by a white guy maybe, but his knowledge came from one of our Elders who is recognized by those in Mexico and us up here. He's died a few years ago, but he was a big influence on us here. Its hard to even find his name anywhere on the net. ELDER ANDRES SEGURA. He was the consultant on this book. His name is nowhere to be found in the book though. Before dying he went around passing this book out to our communities. For him the knowledge in it was more important than the authors name or way of speaking.
I have to say that cause sometimes the author talks like a new ager or gets preachy. BUt ignoring that the info is right on.

[tecpaocelotl]

ELDER ANDRES SEGURA.

I wasn't going to say anything, but Andres Segura had a lot of new ager beliefs. He was an expert on danza folklorico and used that to make many of the danzas that most people do here in cali.

[koyoteh]

ELDER ANDRES SEGURA.

I wasn't going to say anything, but Andres Segura had a lot of new ager beliefs. He was an expert on danza folklorico and used that to make many of the danzas that most people do here in cali.

man this was so many years ago , but someone brought me up the other day as having read about me on this website.

well anyone wanting to call segura a new ager obviously has problems with the guy.
i do too. some things i like some things i don't.

point is he had a approval from the 'traditionals'.

there is problems with our definitions and ideas of thigs. TIme periods. age. location. all that does matter.

you my man are young. What you mean by new age, having had experiences with you elsewhere, is not the same for me. I grew up in the generation where the term new ager was created. IT doesn't mean exactly the same thing that your generation means. Same goes for other words you use.

having said that.

segura was a religious man. strict. He was not a person that had an open door policy like yescas. Maybe your are thinking of yescas who was the folklorista.
Yescas is the one responsible for the the open circle danza groups that are out there.

when i say segura was strict, he would whip people in public for breaking rules.
now we have an issue here. Where did this whipping come from?
you can probably guess and the conchero ways were very catholic.

now if real new agers come around, that doesn't mean the person they are attrracted to is wanting them there.

i seen so many new agers gather at reall ceremonies and are not wanted but the people do not chase them away.

[tecpaocelotl]

you my man are young. What you mean by new age, having had experiences with you elsewhere, is not the same for me. I grew up in the generation where the term new ager was created. IT doesn't mean exactly the same thing that your generation means. Same goes for other words you use.

I use the term new age as this New Age Frauds forum uses the term new age; Someone who claims of being something in which they are not.

segura was a religious man. strict. He was not a person that had an open door policy like yescas. Maybe your are thinking of yescas who was the folklorista.
Yescas is the one responsible for the the open circle danza groups that are out there.

when i say segura was strict, he would whip people in public for breaking rules.
now we have an issue here. Where did this whipping come from?
you can probably guess and the conchero ways were very catholic.

now if real new agers come around, that doesn't mean the person they are attrracted to is wanting them there.

i seen so many new agers gather at reall ceremonies and are not wanted but the people do not chase them away.

I know it's Segura Andres bc he's in an old documentary from 1965 as you can see here:

http://youtu.be/tT1dxHMhwAo

I say, start at 4:20. Along with showing him being a choreographer for modern dance.

But before I seen this documentary a few years ago, I had found out through some people that Segura Andres wasn't honest on the origins of dances and that he made some up with a false history since he was a good dancer.

[koyoteh]

New age doesn't mean what you said, but includes what you said.

New agers yes are that, but they are into spirituality and mix the spiritualities of the world into a big soup and call it their religion or their spirituailty. THey also  make up religions and make up ceremonies, and play with crystals.
and yes they are never who they say they are.

[koyoteh]

i seen that doc before. i was surprised as you also must have been.

however, this doesn't mean he was not connected to the Mesas nor does it mean he didn't have their blessings.

He was alive in my time. He came across my group of people and did interact with some of us.

He also was in texas and i met with some of those people there.

anyhow. There are problems. He is not a new ager, and he is not the problem.
He is a reflection of the times. A result of history.
THe problem is what took place in history and how you feel about that.

Most of us do not like what took place and takes place. Its not andres segura, but the catholic churchs involvement and the changes they made.

as far as making up dances, anyone who ever says that, what do they mean? Do you mean that no one has the right to make up a dance? That a native cannot make up a dance? That the person who made up a dance is not worthy?

native peoples have always made dances. IF they did not then the dances would not exist.
WE are full of artists and artists do not remain stagnant.

now when someone says they are not worthy enough or have the right to make dances, because they need to earn it and be knowledgeable.

well that may be true. in some places.
who's to judge that that is not what took place?

imagine the first time any native anywhere first made a dance before it became traditional. IMagine how they treated that dance artist or ceremonial person. BUT if the people approve, then the people approve. ITs the people who get to say yay or nay and the people like what segura did.

doesn't mean i have to like the catholicism though.

Maybe the Mesas did not approve of him. IF thats the case show us that they did not approve. That would be best.

he's not my hero or anything so i wouldn't be hurt.

I myself do not approve of the mesas, but they are there. They make most of the decisions for that danza world.

Except for the dancers that rebel against them and their catholicism.

[koyoteh]

and by the way, not all native dancing is sacred spiritual.

some dances were created in order to show the public and inspire. I see nothing wrong with that.
sometimes just got to be creative and social.

now if someone sees these non ceremonial dances and believes that they are sacred old traditional dances . Well theres the problem.

now its even a bigger problem if that same someone does not bother to ask teachers if what they are learning are old traditional dances, and then goes on to teach those dances as old and sacred traditionals, then thats a bigger problem.

AND YES that has happened, and is happening. BUT its not the original teachers fault, but the fault of the students who then go on to teach but then don't tell the full story or know the full story.

example. Aztec fire dance. Parts of it are real and parts arent'. Yescas made that up. Kind of.

he choreagraphed old dance and incorporated fire for show. Yet a lot of dancers today do not know this and go on to say its an ancient traditional fire dance.
its not ancient. well not as a fire dance.

Yescas taught a lot of dances and beats that had no names. of which many dances were very very long. In order to teach chicanos, and our institutionalized mind, he had to break up a long long dance into several dances and then create seperate names so his students could distinguish on call.

also, some old dances were like 'groups' . LIke the dances of the sun. there was more than one and all shared a similar beat. BUt for instiutuionalized chicano student dancers, well he again had to chooose which one to call the Sun Dance and rename the other similar beats.

This is what one of his students from Mexicayotl Center in San DIego told me.

Also when it comes to native, especially those who had cities, well there was more than just prayer. THere was hunters, farmers, scholars, warriors, dancers, singers, businessmen, etc.

when tenochtitlan fell, all the culture was thrown into the dance world. EVen the business part.

Now another student of yescas who died recently in northern cali shared this with me almost twenty years ago. That some of these teachers who came like yescas, taught the people different things. SOme were taught the dances for use with different purposes. Some students would be taught the old dances and stories and to recruit that way. Some would be taught the SPiritual side of the dances. WHile others would be taught the business of it. With the goal to create economy for a nation.

well.. Some may not agree with natives running their own businesses by using their own bodies and skills, but some do.
and yes some do take that to a crazy level and exploit. But thats a fine line.

and one more thing. SOme teachers taught the war side of danza. And to stand up for the people , fight. FIght by inspiring the people to take pride and stand up for themselves. Fight by influencing their spirits and in essence RECAPTURING the peoples spirits back to the native world.
Yes i say recapture because the colonists have captured a lot of the people. and we need to take them back.

part of being called Tecpat is a result of us fighting for that , and came from us using dance to get people to be aware of nahuatl.

you had to be there to know about these efforts.
i was there.
you didn't ask here, but since i know you, you always want proof, but for those of us who were there, there really isn't much proof because no one was documenting all of it. Internet wasnt even around. Shit I saw the internet be born. and it really sucked the first ten years.

[koyoteh]

ELDER ANDRES SEGURA.

I wasn't going to say anything, but Andres Segura had a lot of new ager beliefs. He was an expert on danza folklorico and used that to make many of the danzas that most people do here in cali.

most people in cali follow the folklorico ways of yescas as yescas had the open door policy and was free.

segura was a conchero which does not have an open door policy. THey don't allow everyone. or at least they didn't 20 years ago.

when you say new ager beliefs, that is vague. He was no wiccan. Which is part of new ager beliefs. He didnt teach wiccan, budddhism, or any other peoples religion. ONly non native religion that was involved was the spaniards catholicism which was forced on them. can't blame him for that.

if you mean that the conchero style is folklorico. ehh no. not exactly . theres folklorico and theres conchero. A person can be part of both worlds though.

and if the choreagraphing bothers you, welll that a bit impractical. ANyone who dances knows that they have to prepare. That there is an energy that is present in a dance and it has to be built up.
so choreagraphing, preparing, PRACTICE and Study is a must. People don't just get up and dance and all of a sudden know what to do and do it in unison. Takes great preparation.

Now creating dances isn't a problem for the elders of these dances and the teachers. Its only a problem for onlookers and even some students who barely know anything about it. Or are judging from outside points of reference.

The point in dancing is to create a big unifying energy with a big climax. and yes i can't give all the details here. THat is not the whole of it.  ITs a powerful thing. ONly way to understand that is to participate and feel it.

yescas was the folklorista. He did not hide that. i don't think he used that term though, but he did not hide the fact of what he was sharing. It was a lot of the students that chose not to listen and make up stories about who he was rather than ask.
I asked. I had to ask his students though who are now old and teaching today. They don't tell me the same things that poeple tell me about them. People who are like in their 20's who never met these guys or lived with them.
or in their 30's.

i think you know the site mexicayotl.org?
its been through some revisions , but that mario aguilar i think his name is has a lot of history of his line of danza there.
i read it and talked to him about it, but that was years ago. like a decade almost. Back then he was writing a paper.

the other day i looked throught the sight and some changes were made. but all still informative. SIte changed as he got older.

in his site he even mentions other styles of danza that did not grow to be big. LIke the warrior style. Mentions those teachers names. but admits he don't know about that too much.

[koyoteh]

heres some info from ONE man who was there. A student of yescas.

a capitan of danza azteca in san diego.

despite what anyone may think of him and his opinion, he was there and he learned . he is still alive i believe and you can talk to him face to face if you wish.

he covers a lot of ground. He starts of with definitions so you can know what he means whenever he says anything about anything.
he covers a lot of danza history including  about mexica nazis, new agers too. He has the definitions written up in alphabetical order . Look up whatever term you wish or have heard of.

http://www.aguila-blanca.com/pdf-files/Mario%20aguilar-dissertation-2009.pdf

[koyoteh]

as i review some of what we wrote years ago. Well i can look now in retrospect and see how things in our communities have developed since then.

a lot of people who do enjoy the aztlan story , grew matured, used it as a guide in life to reflect on their history and origins and take pride and be able to relate with good manners to many tribal nations.

and the others, that were called aztlanistas, decided to take the Mexica Nazi route.

In the beginning i did understand their sentiment at being angry about things. But since then, since years have passed now, they have also grown in thought and become more hateful using the Aztalan story in the wrong way . In a way it was never intended. In a way that has nothing to do with their political agendas.

The individuals dogma around their mexica nazi like ideaologies has grown, but not their numbers. Their hype has grown because of internet hype and artistic propaganda, but these are only pictures. Not people. The people themselves are small in number and a minority withing the communities in which they reside.

SHoot one so called 'Mex MOve leader lives rigth there in east los angeles but hasn't really been seen by anyone in almost 20 years. Hes really only on the internet. He doesnt help any of the chicano communities or their events.