Sam Beeler

[shkaakwus]

wolfhawaii:

Having read your posts on Jane Ely, and being aware that you and I both know Sam Beeler, personally (in meatspace), and setting aside, for the moment, any issues about enrollment:  Is it your considered opinion that Sam Beeler is not an American Indian?

[wolfhawaii]

Ray, I am pretty sure you know him better than I do.....what do YOU think? Sam is still a mystery to me since dumping me off at Nuyagi after I travelled all the way from Hawaii via Oklahoma to see him in 2006....haven't seen or heard from him since. My definition of who is indian is probably a lot more liberal than some other folks (and yet who is "traditional" Cherokee may be more narrowly defined than some others.) You had some posts over at Woodland Indians forums supporting him, as I recall. I spent some time looking for evidence of the Sandhills folks on the 1910 Monmouth Co. NJ census records recently without much luck, not sure how to account for that. Can you shed some light on what is going on up there with those folks?

[shkaakwus]

If you've been reading about the Sand Hill Indians, over at Woodland Indians Forum, then you already know I have no doubt that he is an American Indian.

Most genealogical researchers are well-aware that census records are, more often than not, useless for identifying American Indians living in most of the eastern United States.  I'll be glad to post (at Woodland) federal records identifying, as "Indians," every member of the Sand Hill Indian five-man council, who served from the 1920's through the 1950's.  Many other kinds of records (birth, marriage, death, land, court, etc.) are much more informative than census records, for this particular purpose.  Have you consulted any of the eleven bibliographical citations on the Sand Hill Indians that I listed at Woodland?  That might be a place to start!       

[shkaakwus]

Here you go:  http://woodlandindians.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5980

[wolfhawaii]

Thank you for the link; I find census info occasionally helpful to find relationships among people, geographical locations etc but i do not rely on them for racial classifications. Perhaps some of the people listed as black on that 1910 census were actually indians from NC. I can imagine the conversation that took place when the individual noticed the census taker had listed him as black and made him change it to Indian. Plecker was infamous in Virginia for trying to reclassify all the Indian people to black.
I do find their (Sandhills)situation interesting and I am curious as to why there seems to be some kind of argument about who is and isn't one by some of the known descendents esp. in relation to Sam and his successor's group. I am also interested as to why Sam has been said to be enrolled CNO yet was chief of Sandhills and was actively recruiting for SECCI. Sam also claimed a connection to Stokes Grounds in OK yet a statement was made by a spokesperson who claimed no knowledge of Sam. None of these things are definitive in any way but having at one time considered Sam a friend and having taken his statements at face value it was somewhat disconcerting to hear contrary information from others and lose contact with Sam so abruptly. I have a feeling that he had an agenda, thought he could use me to further it, and quickly backed out when all did not go according to his plan.....still don't know what the agenda was but I have a glimmer of it  that will remain unsaid. His behavior was not in keeping with clan traditions.
I take it you are working on behalf of the tribe in their quest for recognition?

[shkaakwus]

I don't think there were any living Indians from North Carolina, among the Sand Hill Indians, in 1910.  That generation was long gone, by then.  In most cases, I doubt that people were ever asked about their race--the census taker simply identifying them by his own lights.  In those rare cases where a person might notice what the census taker was writing down, corrections could be made--and were.

Those who know Sam Beeler may judge his character, as they will.  My only interests are restricted to whether or not he is an American Indian, and whether or not he is a Sand Hill Indian.  In the newspaper article, by Joe Ryan, that you posted in the Jane Ely thread, Claire Garland, Director of the Sand Hill Indian Historical Association, says that Sam is not a Sand Hill Indian.  Fascinating, in view of the fact that in her Sand Hill Indian Historical Association newsletter, Summer 2006, Issue 4 (which I have in front of me, right now), Sam Beeler and five members of his family are listed as members, and there is a feature article, with portrait photo, on "Sam Beeler, Chairman of the Tribal Council of the Sand Hill Band of Indians"!  (boldface type supplied by the editor of the newletter)

Whether or not Sam is enrolled CNO or not is not my concern, although Wyman Kirk, who calls himself one of three CNO people who are monitoring phony Cherokee groups, said (in a letter posted at this forum) that Sam Beeler is apparently enrolled CNO.  To the best of my knowledge, the SECCI (whatever anyone thinks of it) does not prohibit CNO citzens from joining; nor does the CNO prohibit their citizens from joining the SECCI. 

I would like to see any and all real American Indians get governmental recognition.  I am not working for anyone.

[NanticokePiney]

RAY?? HERE??     

[wolfhawaii]

Ray, I don't care to research too deeply into the Sandhills and their indian status; if they are real hope they get somewhere with it, but i have a lot more to do than worry about them. I am curious why you are so personally involved in their cause and specifically pop out of the woodwork anytime Sam Beeler's name is mentioned? Why did you start this thread? Are you in fact Sam Beeler's sockpuppet?. You were very involved in the Nuyagi thread a while back but you deleted all that for some reason. What is your stake in all this? For a while there i wasn't even sure there was a real person named Ray Writenhour and thought it was a pseudonym for someone else connected to all the business up in NY/NJ......I did find that there is a real person named that who is a white scholar of the Delaware people, and I had hoped one day to get your (or his) take on some of the issues up there.
So , apparently, Wyman Kirk  of CNO says Sam is CNO.... through whom is he enrolled? Why does he work so vigorously in organizing extremely distantly related Cherokee descendents, i.e. SECCI and it's predecessors, and formerly was chief (though there seems to be some controversy) of the Sandhills, an organization not even recognized by the state in which they reside? If injustices have been done I would like to see them rectified, but in the meantime I am curious to hear answers to these questions.

[shkaakwus]

wolfhawaii writes:
 
"Ray, I don't care to research too deeply into the Sandhills and their indian status; if they are real hope they get somewhere with it, but i have a lot more to do than worry about them."
 
Yes, you've got so much more to do you were spending time looking for Sand Hill Indians in federal census documents for Monmouth County, New Jersey, frequenting the Woodland Indians Forum, reading the Sand Hill Indian threads, and finding newspaper articles on Sand Hill Indians to post on this forum!  LOL!  Who asked you to "worry" about them?
 
"I am curious why you are so personally involved in their cause and specifically pop out of the woodwork anytime Sam Beeler's name is mentioned? Why did you start this thread? Are you in fact Sam Beeler's sockpuppet?"
 
Why am I "so personally involved in their cause"?  Because I had a good friend, Jim Revey, who never got the recognition he deserved.  "Pop out of the woodwork"?  That's an odd turn of phrase given the fact that it has now been more than a year since you asked, "Where's Ray Writenhour when we need him?  He seemed to know a lot about folks up there."  [wolfhawaii, April 10, 2008, NAFPS, re: Jane Ely]  I thought it was time to provide a little balance to all the negative stuff you've been posting, recently.  Hence, this thread.  "Sam Beeler's sockpuppet"?  I suppose I shouldn't dignify the insult by answering, but, Sam Beeler hasn't got any idea what's being said, back and forth, on this forum, so far as I know.  He doesn't even own a computer. 
 
"You were very involved in the Nuyagi thread a while back but you deleted all that for some reason. What is your stake in all this?"
 
My only involvement in that thread was an attempt to separate the Sand Hill Indians from the Nuyaagi Keetoowah Society issues.  What makes you think everybody has a "stake" in something? 
 
"For a while there i wasn't even sure there was a real person named Ray Writenhour and thought it was a pseudonym for someone else connected to all the business up in NY/NJ......I did find that there is a real person named that who is a white scholar of the Delaware people, and I had hoped one day to get your (or his) take on some of the issues up there."
 
Well, now you have it.

So , apparently, Wyman Kirk  of CNO says Sam is CNO.... through whom is he enrolled? Why does he work so vigorously in organizing extremely distantly related Cherokee descendents, i.e. SECCI and it's predecessors, and formerly was chief (though there seems to be some controversy) of the Sandhills, an organization not even recognized by the state in which they reside? If injustices have been done I would like to see them rectified, but in the meantime I am curious to hear answers to these questions.
 
Sorry.  You'll have to ask a. Wyman Kirk, and b. Sam Beeler those questions.  Only Sand Hill Indian questions hold any interest for me.  Sam is a Sand Hill Indian through his mother and maternal grandmother.  I have no idea what his CNO lineage is, nor, as I said, do I care.

[wolfhawaii]

I don't think there were any living Indians from North Carolina, among the Sand Hill Indians, in 1910.  That generation was long gone, by then. 

Sam himself told me about numerous Cherokee individuals and families coming up to NJ from NC to work in that general time frame; I was curious to see if they could be located on census records and so I spent a little time browsing the 1910 Monmouth Co. NJ records without reaching any conclusions. I have a minor personal interest in Delaware history and migrations as one branch of my family had lived in the area of former Delaware towns...add my past acquaintance with Sam Beeler and thus ....my interest in the Sandhills. Sorry your friend Jim Reevey didn't get the recognition he deserved; you honor his memory. Why were the Sandhills excluded from the NJ Commission on Indian Affairs when other groups whom Sam encouraged to come into the state were included?
ADDED: Thank you for returning and responding to the questions I asked and being civil in your responses.

[shkaakwus]

"Why were the Sandhills excluded from the NJ Commission on Indian Affairs when other groups whom Sam encouraged to come into the state were included?"

Good question.  It's one I've been asking for years.


Here is Sam Beeler's testimony before the NJ Commission on Indian Affairs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxGpCJEjWSY&feature=channel_page

[wolfhawaii]

I thought it was time to provide a little balance to all the negative stuff you've been posting, recently.  Hence, this thread.

What "negative stuff"?

[shkaakwus]

Well, let's see.  On March 21, 2009, you posted this at the "Jane Ely" thread:
 
"Jane's former partner Sam Beeler had also solicited members for SECCI; this seems odd as he has been said to be enrolled Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma (a claim I seriously doubt) and has been active in the Sandhills Band in NJ. The Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma has formed a task force to combat fraudulent Cherokee "tribes" including SECCI and Sandhills."

That's one.  Then, on March 23, 2009, in the same thread, you posted that newspaper article on the Sand Hill Indian lawsuit, in which Claire Garland and others had nothing but negative things to say about Sam Beeler.

[wolfhawaii]

I did seriously doubt that Beeler was enrolled CNO, but having seen Wyman Kirk's statement again recently, I won't argue the point. The federally recognized Cherokee Nations generally do not permit dual enrollment, though there are some . It is CNO's characterization that SECCI and Sandhills are frauds, not necessarily mine. In my opinion, SECCI is a heritage group composed of people of distant and nonexistent  Cherokee ancestry that masquerades as a tribe. I do not know enough about the Sandhills to make a conclusion....I was hoping you might provide more info on the background of the dispute between Ms. Garland et.al. and the current and recent past leadership of the Sandhills. The first article was actually posted by educatedindian, which sent me on a search for more info and I posted the other excerpts. Do not attribute to me what others may write.... also, I know far more than i have said so nelagi gihli gesesdi (be leaving the dog alone.)

[wolfhawaii]

Unfortunately for you, the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma's officially published opinion is that Beeler and Sandhills are frauds.....deal with it. Unless YOU have more evidence that the Sandhills are legitimate, Beeler and his cousin Holloway are legitimate, and their critics are wrong, you are wasting bandwidth.

[Al's note: Insults and personal disputes removed.]