Sam Beeler

[shkaakwus]

wolfhawaii writes:

"Unfortunately for you, the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma's officially published opinion is that Beeler and Sandhills are frauds..."

Here's their list.  Unfortunately, for you, it doesn't list the Sand Hill Indians as frauds!  You're having a bad day.

http://taskforce.cherokee.org/Home/tabid/106/Default.aspx

[educatedindian]

If the two of you want to resort to name calling or anything else personal, it has to be done offlist. Anything further like that will also be deleted.

[wolfhawaii]

From Indian Country Today:
http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/archive/41218897.html
New Jersey tribe files lawsuit to reclaim ancestral lands
By Bobbie Whitehead, Today correspondent

Story Published: Mar 13, 2009

Story Updated: Mar 13, 2009

{snip}
The Sand Hill Band of Lenape and Cherokee Indians are descendants of the Delaware Tribe, once known as the Lenape Indians of New Jersey, before being sent to Oklahoma, Holloway said. When the majority of the Delaware tribe left for Oklahoma, he said the group that calls itself the Sand Hill Band did not leave and has continued since 1711 to live, practice its culture and function as a tribe in New Jersey. The Delaware Nation of Oklahoma does have knowledge of the Sand Hill Band and acknowledges its existence as a tribe, said Tamara Francis, Delaware Nation cultural preservation director. (snip)

Though the Sand Hill Band does not have state recognition, Holloway said his tribe is listed with the BIA as “federally recognized but unsupervised.”

Despite Holloway’s claim of federal recognition, BIA records don’t list the Sand Hill Band under its federally-recognized tribes. However, BIA records show that the tribe filed a letter of intent to seek federal recognition in 2007 as did the other three New Jersey tribes.

The Sand Hill Band of Lenape and Cherokee Indians tribe has some Cherokee members that joined the tribe in the 1700s, and the Sand Hill Band is the original indigenous tribe in the state for which U.S. treaties were written and the only New Jersey tribe with legitimate land claims, Holloway said.

“We are the only Indian tribe in New Jersey that can sell authentic Native American goods,” Holloway said.

Though, the Indian Arts and Crafts Board disputes the claim.

“We don’t have any official statement from the New Jersey Attorney General’s Office indicating that there are officially state-recognized tribes by the state of New Jersey that would meet the definition of Indian tribe under the Indian Arts and Crafts Act Public Law 101-644,” said Meredith Stanton, Indian Arts and Crafts Board director.


View Oldest Comments First
Monday, Mar 16 at 11:58 AM Loretta Francis wrote ...Can you say LIBEL?

Monday, Mar 16 at 11:34 AM Tamara Francis wrote ...RE: Tribal Comment I am the Delaware Nation Cultural Preservation Director. I want to make this perfectly clear to everyone. I did not give a quote to this article's author. An email was sent to the author of this article acknowledging that my office was aware that the Sand Hill exist but I, in no way, shape or form acknowledged them as a tribal entity, as was written in this article. An interview was never given to Ms. Bobbie Whitehead. No creedence should be given to this article.


So....if the Delaware Nation, BIA, State of New Jersey, and the Indian Arts and Crafts Board do not recognize the legitimacy of the Sandhills, are we all just to take Writenhour, Beeler, and the Holloways word on it?

[shkaakwus]

This article you've posted has nothing to do with Sam Beeler (you know, the subject of this thread), who is totally opposed to the actions and pronouncements of the present Sand Hill Indian Chief.  You'll have to try a different tack.  So far as the positions of the federal government and federally-recognized tribes are concerned, regarding the "legitimacy" of the Sand Hill Indians--as I said before, I could care less.  I wonder that you put so much emphasis on their opinion. 

[Personal attacks and sidetracks removed.]

[wolfhawaii]

wolfhawaii writes:

"Unfortunately for you, the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma's officially published opinion is that Beeler and Sandhills are frauds..."

Here's their list.  Unfortunately, for you, it doesn't list the Sand Hill Indians as frauds!  You're having a bad day.

http://taskforce.cherokee.org/Home/tabid/106/Default.aspx

So, several younger members of the Ross family attended Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey in the latter 1830s and early 1840s.  Attendance at a school does not constitute “a clear presence of substantial Cherokee community in New Jersey??? as claimed by the so-called Nuyagi group.( Actually this info was found on the Sandhills website http://www.sandhillindians.org/ . Claims made on this page (attributed to Beeler) are dispelled by the various statements made by officials of the respective governments/organizations.)editing added.

This group also suggests that visits by representatives of the Cherokee people constitute migrations.  Cherokees and other tribal leaders were likely to call on one another to visit or to pay respects to those who have passed on as they do now.  This does not constitute a migration.  The group uses whatever it can to try to validate itself as a Cherokee tribal community—it is not.

I believe that both the Cherokee and Muscogee (Creek) people “Indianized??? New York as Nuyagi—it does not mean “place of rocks.  There is only one recognized Delaware Tribe in Oklahoma and they reside at Anadarko, Oklahoma among several plains tribes.  There was a contingent of Delaware who came into the Cherokee Nation in 1867 and agreed to become Cherokee tribal members.

I believe that Wyman Kirk has already addressed the Keetoowah issue completely and with more information and comprehension than I could provide.

Dr. Richard L. Allen
Policy Analyst
Cherokee Nation
end quote

From Wyman Kirk of the CNO: "I have also seen mention of a "Dr" Sam Beeler who is a prominent member of the Sand Hill Band of Cherokee and Lenape (also known as the Sandhill Band of Indians of New Jersey), a group who had crossover members (including Beeler) with the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society. Beeler makes claims that he is a "traditional" Keetoowah, and he was listed at one time as the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society medicine man (or great elder or something of the like). Beeler makes claims to some sort of connection to the Oklahoma Keetoowah Society and the grounds at Stokes Smith near Vian, Oklahoma. This is patently false, and Beeler has no status as a member of any kind to Stokes Ceremonial Grounds (my uncle, Snow Fields, was the Secretary of the Stokes Grounds Keetoowahs until his passing last year, and one of his job duties was to keep the member roles). I can assure you that Sam Beeler was not now, or ever, a member of Stokes Grounds; nor did he ever apply for membership (to obtain membership, you must speak Cherokee fluently, have an unbroken matrilineal line/have a clan, and agree to the basic tenets of the religion). I can also say that he was not now, or ever, a member of the other Keetoowah grounds in Oklahoma.  (Here's a link to info on Beeler: http://sussex.edu/newsandevents/2003/11/200311073.htm). One final note on Beeler, he is apparently an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation and claims he is a fluent speaker of Cherokee (this information does nothing to counter the arguments against his claims, though I have my doubts as to his degree of fluency in the Cherokee language)."

So cousins Beeler and Holloway have had a falling out.... huh... as far as the statements of the federally-recognized nations, generally the participants on this board are respectful of their right to claim or disclaim who their relations are...just because you don't care what the recognized nations have to say, doesn't mean others don't.

[shkaakwus]

I see all you can do is regurgitate some old stuff from this forum.  Okay.

wolfhawaii posts:

"So, several younger members of the Ross family attended Lawrenceville Classical and Commercial High School, New Jersey in the latter 1830s and early 1840s.  Attendance at a school does not constitute "a clear presence of substantial Cherokee community in New Jersey??? as claimed by the so-called Nuyagi group."
 
Matters of interpretation and semantics.  Have you read the Ross papers?
 
 
"( Actually this info was found on the Sandhills website http://www.sandhillindians.org/ . Claims made on this page (attributed to Beeler) are dispelled by the various statements made by officials of the respective governments/organizations.)editing added."
 
They're "disputed"--not "dispelled." 


"This group also suggests that visits by representatives of the Cherokee people constitute migrations.  Cherokees and other tribal leaders were likely to call on one another to visit or to pay respects to those who have passed on as they do now.  This does not constitute a migration." 
 
In two instances, on the Sand Hill Indian website, the word, "migration," is used, where "move" or "visit" or some other word would have been a better choice.  Big deal.  In fact, the primary meaning of "migrate" is just "move."  So, if one wanted to get pedantically literal, these movements WERE "migrations"--though, not migrations in the usual way we understand that word.
 
 
"The group uses whatever it can to try to validate itself as a Cherokee tribal community-it is not."
 
One man's opinion; and, the standard, official, politically expedient position of the CNO regarding any non-federally-recognized Cherokee descendants.  They held the same position with regard to the UKB, until it was recognized!  LOL! 


"I believe that both the Cherokee and Muscogee (Creek) people "Indianized??? New York as Nuyagi-it does not mean "place of rocks."
 
I have no doubt, myself, that "Nuyagi" is a phonetic representation of "New York;" however, the gloss as "place of rocks" is a perfectly understandable folk etymology and paraphrase, which has been read into this name.  The Lenape who lived in New York called that area, "Minising," which has been glossed as 'where the stones are gathered together'--and the people there were called, "Minsi," glossed as 'people of the stony country.'  In Cherokee, "nv ya" means 'rock' and "gi" means 'people'--so, "nv ya gi" equals 'people of the rocks.' This would be a more accurate gloss, but it's easy enough to see where this came from. 
 
"There is only one recognized Delaware Tribe in Oklahoma and they reside at Anadarko, Oklahoma among several plains tribes.  There was a contingent of Delaware who came into the Cherokee Nation in 1867 and agreed to become Cherokee tribal members."
 
More CNO talking points dutifully delivered.  LOL!  Tell this to members of the Delaware Tribe of Indians headquartered in Bartlesville.  Then, try to dodge the rocks being hurled in your direction!


"From Wyman Kirk of the CNO: "I have also seen mention of a "Dr" Sam Beeler who is a prominent member of the Sand Hill Band of Cherokee and Lenape (also known as the Sandhill Band of Indians of New Jersey), a group who had crossover members (including Beeler) with the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society."
 
Yes.  You can count the number of Sand Hill Indians who were or are members of the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society on the fingers of one hand, and have one or two fingers left over.
 
 
"Beeler makes claims that he is a "traditional" Keetoowah, and he was listed at one time as the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society medicine man (or great elder or something of the like)."
 
Says who?  I think Kirk may be confusing Sam Beeler with Ray Evans Harrell, here.  As for being "traditional Keetoowah," I accept Sam Beeler's characterization of himself, as such.  The Nuyagi Keetoowah Society was formed in 1928, by traditonal Cherokee people living in New York and New Jersey.  Sam Beeler is a member of that religious society.
 
 
"Beeler makes claims to some sort of connection to the Oklahoma Keetoowah Society and the grounds at Stokes Smith near Vian, Oklahoma. This is patently false, and Beeler has no status as a member of any kind to Stokes Ceremonial Grounds (my uncle, Snow Fields, was the Secretary of the Stokes Grounds Keetoowahs until his passing last year, and one of his job duties was to keep the member roles). I can assure you that Sam Beeler was not now, or ever, a member of Stokes Grounds; nor did he ever apply for membership (to obtain membership, you must speak Cherokee fluently, have an unbroken matrilineal line/have a clan, and agree to the basic tenets of the religion). I can also say that he was not now, or ever, a member of the other Keetoowah grounds in Oklahoma.  (Here's a link to info on Beeler: http://sussex.edu/newsandevents/2003/11/200311073.htm)."
 
Huh?  This guy is tilting at windmills!  All this site says is that Sam Beeler "participated" in stomps at the Stokes Grounds in Oklahoma.  Sam Beeler never said he was a "member" of that Stomp Grounds, or any other in Oklahoma.  I know someone who is a member of this list, right here, who is not enrolled, and not even Cherokee, who has been to the stomps at Stokes! 
 
 
"One final note on Beeler, he is apparently an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation and claims he is a fluent speaker of Cherokee (this information does nothing to counter the arguments against his claims, though I have my doubts as to his degree of fluency in the Cherokee language)."
 
So, this guy has his "doubts" about Beeler's "fluency."  So, what? 


"So cousins Beeler and Holloway have had a falling out.... huh..."
 
You can pick your friends.  You can't pick your relations.
 
 
"as far as the statements of the federally-recognized nations, generally the participants on this board are respectful of their right to claim or disclaim who their relations are...just because you don't care what the recognized nations have to say, doesn't mean others don't."
 
That's their prerogative.  My prerogative is to research the facts and make my own decisions, rather than to rely solely on the word of somebody else, who is demonstably unfamiliar with the subject under scrutiny, and who has a political and financial stake in taking the position he does.  In fact, the CNO does not disclaim them as their relations--it only disclaims them as a "tribal community"--a point with which I and others disagree.  In Sam Beeler's case (again, the subject of this thread!), they obviously acknowledge that he is an enrolled member of the CNO!  So, thanks for showing that Sam Beeler is an American Indian and a Cherokee!  I appreciate your help in this matter.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[Defend the Sacred]

Have you read the Ross papers?

Please forgive me jumping in here, but do you have a good link for these online? I thought I had one here, but can't seem to find it.

[shkaakwus]

I don't.  Didn't know they were online.

[wolfhawaii]

Matters of interpretation and semantics.  Have you read the Ross papers? I will leave interpretation and semantics to you. I have not had access to the Ross papers to read them.
 
 
"( Actually this info was found on the Sandhills website http://www.sandhillindians.org/ . Claims made on this page (attributed to Beeler) are dispelled by the various statements made by officials of the respective governments/organizations.)editing added."
 
They're "disputed"--not "dispelled."  The claim is made that the Sandhill Band is recognized by the "revered Keetoowah Society, Delaware nation, New Jersey, and the US Govt; the info posted above shows this claim is not supported


 
One man's opinion; and, the standard, official, politically expedient position of the CNO regarding any non-federally-recognized Cherokee descendants.  They held the same position with regard to the UKB, until it was recognized!  LOL!  The UKB preceded the reemergence of the CNO by 30 years


"I believe that both the Cherokee and Muscogee (Creek) people "Indianized??? New York as Nuyagi-it does not mean "place of rocks."
 
I have no doubt, myself, that "Nuyagi" is a phonetic representation of "New York;" however, the gloss as "place of rocks" is a perfectly understandable folk etymology and paraphrase, which has been read into this name.  The Lenape who lived in New York called that area, "Minising," which has been glossed as 'where the stones are gathered together'--and the people there were called, "Minsi," glossed as 'people of the stony country.'  In Cherokee, "nv ya" means 'rock' and "gi" means 'people'--so, "nv ya gi" equals 'people of the rocks.' This would be a more accurate gloss, but it's easy enough to see where this came from.  I agree that Nuyagi means "place of rocks; disagree that "gi" means people....it is a locative as far as I recall
 
"There is only one recognized Delaware Tribe in Oklahoma and they reside at Anadarko, Oklahoma among several plains tribes.  There was a contingent of Delaware who came into the Cherokee Nation in 1867 and agreed to become Cherokee tribal members."
 
More CNO talking points dutifully delivered.  LOL!  Tell this to members of the Delaware Tribe of Indians headquartered in Bartlesville.  Then, try to dodge the rocks being hurled in your direction! The Bartlesville folks are/were Cherokee citizens by treaty who decided to reestablish themselves independently of CNO; I support their right to do so if they wish


"From Wyman Kirk of the CNO: "I have also seen mention of a "Dr" Sam Beeler who is a prominent member of the Sand Hill Band of Cherokee and Lenape (also known as the Sandhill Band of Indians of New Jersey), a group who had crossover members (including Beeler) with the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society."
 
Yes.  You can count the number of Sand Hill Indians who were or are members of the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society on the fingers of one hand, and have one or two fingers left over. (The original discussion this came from was as regards the Pomona group which was attempting to usurp the group which held the charter and the land; Sam Beeler's other cousin David Michael Wolfe and he were involved in that as far as i know. Both are persona non grata there i beleive.)
 
 
"Beeler makes claims that he is a "traditional" Keetoowah, and he was listed at one time as the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society medicine man (or great elder or something of the like)."
 
Says who?  I think Kirk may be confusing Sam Beeler with Ray Evans Harrell, here.  As for being "traditional Keetoowah," I accept Sam Beeler's characterization of himself, as such.  The Nuyagi Keetoowah Society was formed in 1928, by traditonal Cherokee people living in New York and New Jersey.  Sam Beeler is a member of that religious society. I refer to my statement above. The former website of the NKS of Pomona NY is no longer available but I am quite sure Ray Harrell was never on it. Again, the claim that the Keetowah Society recognizes them in NJ or NY is patently false. I asked elders and officials at several of the ceremonial grounds in Oklahoma and no one had ever heard of Sam Beeler
 
 
"Beeler makes claims to some sort of connection to the Oklahoma Keetoowah Society and the grounds at Stokes Smith near Vian, Oklahoma. This is patently false, and Beeler has no status as a member of any kind to Stokes Ceremonial Grounds (my uncle, Snow Fields, was the Secretary of the Stokes Grounds Keetoowahs until his passing last year, and one of his job duties was to keep the member roles). I can assure you that Sam Beeler was not now, or ever, a member of Stokes Grounds; nor did he ever apply for membership (to obtain membership, you must speak Cherokee fluently, have an unbroken matrilineal line/have a clan, and agree to the basic tenets of the religion). I can also say that he was not now, or ever, a member of the other Keetoowah grounds in Oklahoma.  (Here's a link to info on Beeler: http://sussex.edu/newsandevents/2003/11/200311073.htm)."
 
Huh?  This guy is tilting at windmills!  All this site says is that Sam Beeler "participated" in stomps at the Stokes Grounds in Oklahoma.  Sam Beeler never said he was a "member" of that Stomp Grounds, or any other in Oklahoma.  I know someone who is a member of this list, right here, who is not enrolled, and not even Cherokee, who has been to the stomps at Stokes!  The website claims that they are recognized by the "revered Keetoowah Society" and Wyman Kirk's statement and my own inquiries show this not to be the case.
 
 
"One final note on Beeler, he is apparently an enrolled member of the Cherokee Nation and claims he is a fluent speaker of Cherokee (this information does nothing to counter the arguments against his claims, though I have my doubts as to his degree of fluency in the Cherokee language)."
 
So, this guy has his "doubts" about Beeler's "fluency."  So, what?  In my opinion he is an intermediate speaker at best, and doesn't know the songs well enough to lead or follow


"So cousins Beeler and Holloway have had a falling out.... huh..."
 
You can pick your friends.  You can't pick your relations.
 
 
"as far as the statements of the federally-recognized nations, generally the participants on this board are respectful of their right to claim or disclaim who their relations are...just because you don't care what the recognized nations have to say, doesn't mean others don't."
 
That's their prerogative.  My prerogative is to research the facts and make my own decisions, rather than to rely solely on the word of somebody else, who is demonstably unfamiliar with the subject under scrutiny, and who has a political and financial stake in taking the position he does.  In fact, the CNO does not disclaim them as their relations--it only disclaims them as a "tribal community"--a point with which I and others disagree.  In Sam Beeler's case (again, the subject of this thread!), they obviously acknowledge that he is an enrolled member of the CNO!  So, thanks for showing that Sam Beeler is an American Indian and a Cherokee!  I appreciate your help in this matter. Whatever...is that what you came here to prove?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[shkaakwus]

The "revered Keetoowah Society" referred to is the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society.   The late Jim Revey, Sand Hill Indian, was named the official representative of the Delaware Tribe of Indians, headquartered in Bartlesville, for dealing with the state government in New Jersey.  At that time, the Delaware Tribe had federal recognition.  Delawares recognize the Sand Hill Indians as Lenape.  Governor Driscoll of New Jersey was ceremonially "inducted" into the Sand Hill Indians in 1949, and the 1980's gubernatorial proclamation recognizing the Lenape as the indigenous people of New Jersey, was written, largely, by Jim Revey, Sand Hill Indian.  The Annual Report of the Smithsonian Institution for 1948, published by the U.S. Government Printing Office, lists the Sand Hill Indians as a remnant Indian community in New Jersey.  Federal documents, such as in the link I posted, earlier, list Sand Hill Indians as "Indians."  The politically and financially motivated pronouncements of the CNO do not "dispel" any of this. 

So, the CNO didn't exist for 30 years?  Apparently, they weren't Indians, then?  Maybe, I picked a bad example.  However, recognized tribes frequently deny the legitimacy of other groups seeking recognition--often, with good reason, but not always.  The EBC has been fighting the recognition efforts of the Lumbee, for years.  If the Lumbee receive full recognition, this time, will that mean that they were always legitimate Indians--or, that they only became real Indians after receiving full federal recognition?  Or, will they still be non-Indians after receiving recognition?

That the "Bartlesville folk" were ever "Cherokee citizens" is denied by a lot of them--and I agree with those who deny it.  This point is debatable, and not yet settled.  If they were "Cherokee citizens by treaty," how is it that the CNO argues that the Freedmen are not?  (That's a rhetorical question.)

I have no idea which branch of the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society Sam Beeler is affiliated with. Nor do I see what difference it would make to the CNO.  Nor do I care.

The question of Sam Beeler's "fluency" in Cherokee (and this is way out of my area of expertise) only mattered if he claimed to be a member of the Stokes Stomp Ground in Oklahoma.  He didn't!  He said he "participated" in those stomps.  As I said, someone else on this list has done that!  And, I'm betting those elders you talked to don't know who he is, either.  By the way, that fellow says a lot of the folks at that great traditional stomp ground looked awfully white.

I said why I came here.  To ask you if you thought Sam Beeler was NOT an American Indian, and to provide some balance to your negative posts.  I think I've achieved those goals.

[wolfhawaii]

The "revered Keetoowah Society" referred to is the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society.   I have no idea which branch of the Nuyagi Keetoowah Society Sam Beeler is affiliated with. Nor do I see what difference it would make to the CNO.  Nor do I care.

The question of Sam Beeler's "fluency" in Cherokee (and this is way out of my area of expertise) only mattered if he claimed to be a member of the Stokes Stomp Ground in Oklahoma.  He didn't!  He said he "participated" in those stomps.  As I said, someone else on this list has done that!  And, I'm betting those elders you talked to don't know who he is, either.  By the way, that fellow says a lot of the folks at that great traditional stomp ground looked awfully white.

I said why I came here.  To ask you if you thought Sam Beeler was NOT an American Indian, and to provide some balance to your negative posts.  I think I've achieved those goals.

This is the first i have heard that NKS is the "revered" Keetoowah Society referred too; Sam always said (to me)the recognition was specifically from Stokes Smith Grounds in OK. As to the NKS, who allegedly brought the fire to NJ from Oklahoma? A sacred fire can't be moved any old way; if this was done properly, people would know about it. You made the comment about not being able to pick relatives....why do other relatives of Sam Beeler not recognize him as being cousin to their cousin James Revey? Claire Garland says he is not a relative, why does she say that? Your comment about racial phenotypes at the ceremonial ground in OK is seems  like race-baiting and is quite ugly. During the National Holiday lots of people go to the stomps that are not regular attendees, including you and/or your buddy. There are still some unresolved questions in my mind, but maybe no one else cares.

[shkaakwus]

Sorry, fella.  You're fishin' in a dry creek bed.  I'm a white man and a Christian.  I have never been to Oklahoma and I have zero interest in traditional Cherokee religion.  Sam Beeler told me that the Keetoowah Society referred to at the Sand Hill Indian site is the NKS.  You say he told you something different.  Since the site, itself, doesn't say which one, that's where that stands.  I can't answer why Claire Garland says he's not a relative.  Ask her.  And, while you're at it, you can ask her why she published a feature article in her 2006 newsletter titled, "Sam Beeler, Chairman of the Tribal Council of the Sand Hill Band of Indians"!  We're all "cousins," of one sort or another.  Do you know who all your 3rd and 4th cousins are?  I know I don't.  I certainly don't know who all of Sam Beeler's cousins are--nor, Claire Garland's!  I do know that John Kraft, highly respected white scholar of the Lenape in New Jersey, was a good friend of Jim Revey; and, he testified that Jim thought very highly of Sam Beeler.  The comments about whites at the Stokes Stomp Grounds is not mine; although, like Vine Deloria, Jr., I do base who I think should be recognized as an Indian primarily on race.  Any Wannabe can learn tribal history, culture and language.  With the CNO's treatment of the Freedmen, I think we know who the "race-baiters" are.  Also, I find that protests about BQ usually come loudest from white Wannabes, or what this forum calls PODIA's (enrolled or not), rather than from real Indians.

Funny.  When your name was mentioned on this board, over a year ago, I asked Sam Beeler if he knew you.  He said he did, told me a little about who you are, and had nothing at all disparaging to say about you.  Still doesn't, as far as I know--though I haven't spoken to him in quite some time.  Then, a month or so ago, you start posting all this negative stuff, obviously attempting (unsuccessfully) to denigrate Sam Beeler.  So, you apparently have some real personal issues with him.  Maybe that's why nobody else cares.  I know I don't. 

[wolfhawaii]

You started this thread and I shared my concerns. It seems there are other people who have similar concerns, however, Sand Hills and Lenape affairs are best left in the hands of those immediately concerned. Our mutual frames of reference are quite different and we should leave it at that. Raising personal issues or creating them is not the purpose of this forum. I don't see you haranguing educatedindian about having posted the original article about the Sand Hill lawsuit on the Jane Ely thread.

[shkaakwus]

You started this thread and I shared my concerns. It seems there are other people who have similar concerns, however, Sand Hills and Lenape affairs are best left in the hands of those immediately concerned. Our mutual frames of reference are quite different and we should leave it at that. Raising personal issues or creating them is not the purpose of this forum. I don't see you haranguing educatedindian about having posted the original article about the Sand Hill lawsuit on the Jane Ely thread.

If "Sand Hills and Lenape affairs are best left in the hands of those immediately concerned," why is it that you and "other people" with "similar concerns" feel the necessity to "share" your "concerns" about them?  That's something you were doing long before I began this thread!

Our frames of reference are very different.  With that I wholeheartedly agree. 

I'll leave it to the readers to decide who raised the personal issues on this thread. 

I don't "harangue" educatedindian about this subject because, a. he doesn't know Sam Beeler; b. he hasn't said anything in this thread; and, c. he holds the big eraser.  I debate you because you and I know Sam Beeler; you post in this thread, continually; and, you can't edit or delete my posts.

[Moma_porcupine]

I don't know whats going on with anyone else , but the reason i haven't been responding to this isn't because i don't care , but more that i don't understand why it's so important whether or not people in an internet forum think Sam Beeler is or isn't an American Indian.

Personally I am guessing he probably has enough descent to be accepted as an NDN by quite a few other folks who are indisputably NDN themselves ( as in people who are enrolled in a federally recognized tribe)

But so what ?

The question of whether or not the Sand Hills band should rightfully be recognized as a soveirgn indigenous Nation is a whole different issue , and I don't see how that question would or should hing on Sam Beeler's personal identity .

One thing I do see about Sam Beeler that makes me wonder is that he has repeatedly choosen to support  people and groups that other people in larger culturally stronger communities seem to feel are behaving in ways that are exploitive and degrading to Cherokee culture.   

I am reffering to Sam's relationships with Jane Ely , Medicine Crow , and intertwining the Sand Hill bands cultural history with the Nuyagi Keetowah and Ray Harrell and the SECCI

The thread on Jane Ely

http://newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1668.0

Medicine Crow

http://forum.americanindiantribe.com/viewtopic.php?t=1489&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=
asc&highlight=%3Cbr%20/%3Esand+hill+beeler

From the Sandhill's website

http://web.archive.org/web/20050209015517/http://www.sandhillindians.net/info.htm
 

Who are the Keetoowah-Cherokee and what does the term, Keetoowah mean?
 
The word Keetoowah refers to the Mother Mound of the Cherokee culture.  Tradition tells the Cherokee that Keetoowah Mound is the navel of the earth from which the Cherokee people originated.  Spiritually, traditional Cherokee people refer to themselves as Keetoowah.  Not all Cherokee people are traditional, and therefore are not known as Keetoowah.  All Keetoowah are Cherokee however.  There are four officially recognized Keetoowah Groups:

I Original Keetoowah Society

II Nighthawk Keetoowah Society

III Nuyagi Keetoowah Society

IV  United Keetoowah Band

 
Pre-History of the Nuyagi Keetoowah in the Northeast
 
“The Indian community of Monmouth county New Jersey pre-dates the revolutionary war. It includes elements of two distinct Indian Groups. The first group representing the original indigenous inhabitants of New Jersey who are the Lenape. The second group is reflective of  Cherokee migrations into the state of New Jersey beginning in 1711.  The ranks of the two separate Indian entities were swollen by the intermarriage with the local non-Indian population.  Although the groups were strengthened by intermarriage they retained their Cherokee identity. (con...)

As far as i know the Nuyagi Keetoowah are not officially recognized.

As there is supposedly only a handfull of members of the Sand Hill band who are involved in this group why does this Sand Hill bands webpage seem to put so much emphasis on being connected with the Nuyagi Keetowah ? Am I wrong in interpreting this as Sam Beelers influence?

I could say quite a bit more than I have about some of the people involved in the Nuyagi Keetowah , but as it gets into some peoples personal histories I don't like to unless I am really sure this is being used to mislead the public. I'm not sure about that, but i have seen enough to feel there is probably good reason why spokes people for the CNO have spoken out against this group.   

But if the Sand Hill band truly has retained their Cherokee heritage and culture why does the bands webpage seem to be saying their cultural heritage is reflected in the very questionable Nuyagi Keetowah ?

And if Sam has a strong identity within his own tribe why was he involved in a questionable group like the SECCI ?

http://web.archive.org/web/20051102202851/http://www.secci.com/Officers/District+Deputy+Marshalls.htm

D

istrict Deputy Marshal's

NEW WORLD DISTRICT
Oakley Silver Cloud Washburn

OCHLOCKNEE DISTRICT
vacant

RED BIRD SMITH DISTRICT
West---Billie Rainwater Barnes
East----Tony Thunder Wolf Ledford

ECHOTA DISTRICT
vacant

SACRED VALLEY DISTRICT
William Night Panther Phipps

STANDS TALL DISTRICT
Jack White Eagle Shryock

OVERLAND DISTRICT
William Night Panther Phipps

GREAT LAKES DISTRICT
James Coyotes Voice Curtis

OLD SETTLERS DISTRICT
Jack White Eagle Shryock
 

BUFFALO DISTRICT

David Three Feathers Hull

GREAT BEAR DISTRICT
Glen Fire Bear Stewart

Keetoowah District
Sam Beeler

Four Corners District
Dick Hogle
 

http://web.archive.org/web/20040526114026/http://secci.com/TL/2003/December.htm

Honorary Memberships of the NY Nuyagi Keetoowah community  (Wolf Dance Hicks)

Wolf Dance announced the majority vote of 'yes', with one abstention of the Council to accept the Honorary Memberships of the entire New York Nuyagi Keetoowah community.  She further noted that it would truly be an honor for us to have them as members.  Their Keetoowah Medicine Priest, Star Singer Harrell, came to our National Tribal Grounds last year and honored us with our Sister Fire and Sacred Mound, and has since trained Jeff Shadow Hawk Banks as our own Firekeeper.   In addition,  the SeCCI Ceremonial Team recently visited this community where they were given the utmost respect, hospitality, and knowledge.  Chief Panther reported that the Keetoowah community would be taking the invitation to their Council and have not yet responded with a reply.  Wolf Dance reported that several of their community will be coming to the re-matriation of the Traveler this coming November, planned for the the Saturday following Thanksgiving, November 29th. 

shkaakwus

If "Sand Hills and Lenape affairs are best left in the hands of those immediately concerned," why is it that you and "other people" with "similar concerns" feel the necessity to "share" your "concerns"?  That's something you were doing long before I began this thread!

Seeing some of the people Sam Beeler is involved with , he seems to be acting more like a lot of PODIAs who have lost the cultural understanding that comes from being a part of a strong community which has retained it's culture. Maybe there is some reasons behind this which I don't understand, but on the face of it it looks like a problem, at least in the opinion of some people who don't like to see their culture corrupted. Whether or not Sam Beeler is an American Indian or a good man, seems to be kind of beside the point. 

Another reason i haven't posted in this thread is when Shakaakwus was posting here a couple years ago they began a thread in the non frauds section on the Sand Hills band and when these same questions came up , they got upset and deleted all their posts and the entire thread with everyone elses posts.      ( People can't do this any longer since then ) I didn't feel that was a fair or respectful thing to do, and I don't feel like going through this again . I did save most of that old thread and couid repost it if anyone wants the info that was removed ...

I get tired arguing with people ....