Burrows Cave

[BuboAhab]

"Bubo, where did I do that?"
1. when you stated that I am arguing for the first opinion
2. when you said "our prayers"

[E.P. Grondine]

"Bubo, where did I do that?"
1. when you stated that I am arguing for the first opinion
2. when you said "our prayers"

Bubo, either
1) the Burrows Cave artifacts are real, and Mr Burrows and his associates are guilty of massive violation of NAGPRA and should be thrown in jail immediately, and bonding denied
or
2) the Burrows Cave artifacts are fakes, and Mr Burrows and his associates are guilty of manufacturing fake NDN history

You chose 1.

I never thought that you would include yourself in the "our" in "our prayers", and I am pretty certain that no one here thought that either.

[bls926]

And why does Grondine keep putting words into my mouth.

Bubo, where did I do that?

He does that a lot. Always accusing people of putting words in his mouth.

[BuboAhab]

http://www.lindapages.com/calhoun/russ.htm

Readers can see the above link for more information.

[E.P. Grondine]

http://www.lindapages.com/calhoun/russ.htm

Readers can see the above link for more information.

Of course, a quick search on "Rick Flavin" and "Frank Joseph Collin" presents
a far different picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Collin

http://www.flavinscorner.com/collin.htm

Would someone here please take Flavin's published information and update the wikipedia entry?

As a quick laboratory examination could establish whether the pieces are legitimate or not, who are the "private collectors", Bubo?

By the way, the date for Beringia being open in this link is wrong.
But then that is incidental.

[BuboAhab]

1. Wikipedia is NOT reliable.
2. The second website is used to divert attention from the study of the stones, and throw lots of profanity into the mix.  Some from this group think along these lines. Profanity & Scholarly papers do not go together.

Ancestor Shrines is a more productive patch for research. Ancestor shrines were first reported in Southern Illinois in the DeSoto chronicles of 1543.

[E.P. Grondine]

Ancestor Shrines is a more productive patch for research. Ancestor shrines were first reported in Southern Illinois in the DeSoto chronicles of 1543.

Okay, Bubo, let's assume these are real and that they came from "Ancestor Shrines". Then they need to be returned to the decedents.

Now, who are the private collectors?

You have surely gathered that information in your study of tablets.

[BuboAhab]

Yes they should be returned to the decedents, if we only knew now who are they? In my opinion, The DeSoto Chronicles account of the ancestor shrine of The Pacaha was the same one - what tribal name was this region later assigned to? After Pacaha, the DeSoto expedition went to "Quiguate and Cologia" - a possible cognate of Cahokia.
I do not have and have not ever had any of the burrows cave relics and also do not know what they sold for.
For a photographic collection of the stones you may want to try
http://users.ohiohills.com/gakarshner/

[E.P. Grondine]

Yes they should be returned to the decedents, if we only knew now who are they? In my opinion, The DeSoto Chronicles account of the ancestor shrine of The Pacaha was the same one - what tribal name was this region later assigned to? After Pacaha, the DeSoto expedition went to "Quiguate and Cologia" - a possible cognate of Cahokia.
I do not have and have not ever had any of the burrows cave relics and also do not know what they sold for.
For a photographic collection of the stones you may want to try
http://users.ohiohills.com/gakarshner/

Hi Bubo  -

Casqui was probably Vincennes:
http://www.floridahistory.com/indiana.html,

site of Sugar Loaf and Pyramid Mounds. NOTE the bison skulls; Vincennes was the location of bisons' ford across the Wabash River on their route between Big Salt Lick and Kaskasia on the Mississipi River.

Of course none of this is certain, note also the large city located at Harrisburg, Illinois by this reconstruction of DeSoto's route:
http://www.floridahistory.com/illinois.html#SouthernIllinois

Given the nearness of the site of Cahokia (Twakanhah), the peculiar thing here is the lack of the mention of it to DeSoto by the peoples.

And of course none of this is relevant to Burrows fraud ring. Returning from this diversion to the subject at hand:

Bubo, where did you get your information on the Burrows Cave artifacts for your database? Who did you get it from, and when did you get it?

For a list of some of the people whose money was taken by this fraud ring, see:
http://www.flavinscorner.com/falling.htm

[I particularly enjoy the parts in Flavin's account where Burrows participates in the Slack Farm looting and other looting and refers to Native Americans as "prairie niggers". Gosh gee, thanks. If any of you here at NAFPS have any contacts with writers with major Native American press, I have some research on this ring I'd like to sell. Also, if any NAFPSter wish to contact Barnes and Nobles or Borders management (whether national or local) and let them know what you think about this, then please do.]

There are also some more serious matters are involved with this ring than simply people being swindled out of their time and money on a national scale.

Bubo, do you know anything about John Moss and his "suicide"?
[hmmm... "a chemist bouncing back and forth from the States to British Columbia..." Yeah, Rick "Something was wrong".]


E.P. Grondine
"Amazing Stories"
...and now for the rest of the story...

[BuboAhab]

The ancestor shrine that was later known as "Burrows Cave" was defiled in the Desoto Chronicles (p398).  You show the Ancestor shrine to be near Vincennes, Indiana - that is near the location of the Burrows Cave.

The account from the DeSoto Chronicles:
"...his enemies had the boldness to enter his temple and burial place contemptuously, they not only entered it, but committed all the ignominious and offensive affronts that they could, because they pillaged everything that the temple contained in the way of riches, ornamets, spoils, and trophies that had been gathered at the expense of their own ancestors. (footnote: Considering the pivotal importance of the chief's hereditary line to the wall being of a chiefdom, the defilement of Pacaha's ancestor shrine would have been a prominent goal of the Casqui raiders.)  They knocked down on the ground all the wooden chests that served as sepulchers, and for their own satisfaction and revenge and to affront their enemies, they threw out onto the ground the bones of the dead bodies that were in the chests.  Not content withy throwing them on the ground, the stamped and kicked them in an excess of contempt and disdain... In short, nothing they could think of was left undone"

And it is not surprising that your your name for Cahokia (Twakanhah) does not match DeSoto's name. It is common that place names do change through time (especially in this time period). Where did you get the name Twakanhah?

How about reading the DeSoto Chronicles description of visiting Cahokia (Cologia and Quiguate) before claiming a lack of any mention?

As I have stated before, the information on the Burrows cave discovery was from Russell Burrows in an email.

You enjoy Flavin's Corner? That is sad.

No, I never heard of John Moss.




 

[E.P. Grondine]

The ancestor shrine that was later known as "Burrows Cave" was defiled in the Desoto Chronicles (p398).  You show the Ancestor shrine to be near Vincennes, Indiana - that is near the location of the Burrows Cave.

The account from the DeSoto Chronicles:
"...his enemies had the boldness to enter his temple and burial place contemptuously, they not only entered it, but committed all the ignominious and offensive affronts that they could, because they pillaged everything that the temple contained in the way of riches, ornamets, spoils, and trophies that had been gathered at the expense of their own ancestors. (footnote: Considering the pivotal importance of the chief's hereditary line to the wall being of a chiefdom, the defilement of Pacaha's ancestor shrine would have been a prominent goal of the Casqui raiders.)  They knocked down on the ground all the wooden chests that served as sepulchers, and for their own satisfaction and revenge and to affront their enemies, they threw out onto the ground the bones of the dead bodies that were in the chests.  Not content with throwing them on the ground, the stamped and kicked them in an excess of contempt and disdain... In short, nothing they could think of was left undone"

Bubo, you're mistaking your own views for mine. Pacaha's temple and burial place for the nobility would not have been in a cave. But this is simply a diversion on your part.

And it is not surprising that your your name for Cahokia (Twakanhah) does not match DeSoto's name. It is common that place names do change through time (especially in this time period). Where did you get the name Twakanhah?

It's the Five Nation's name, not "mine". See Appendix A of my book
As to what other names "The City" might have had, I would not care to speculate here, now, as it would be a diversion.

As I have stated before, the information on the Burrows cave discovery was from Russell Burrows in an email.

So all of your information on the Burrow's Cave "objects" in your database came from straight from Burrows?

You enjoy Flavin's Corner? That is sad.

Now why exactly is that "sad", Bubo?

One sad part for me was that Flavin failed in his effort to expose the ring,
and that he did not manage to learn its full extent nor how it functioned.

It is sad that while Flavin reached out to the Native American media, he and they had limited success in getting national play on the story. This is not only a US national ring, it is an international ring, one that really needs to be exposed. It still functions as a result of that failure.

It is sad how many people this ring has hurt badly.

Finally, it is also sad how badly this fraud has hurt legitimate scholars researching contacts, people such as Flavin himself.

No, I never heard of John Moss.

Then you should ask around.

[BuboAhab]

"Pacaha's temple and burial place for the nobility would not have been in a cave."
If not in a cave, then where? The only ancestor shrine known in that area was in a cave - and this is not a diversion.

"So all of your information on the Burrow's Cave "objects" in your database came from straight from Burrows?"
Yes and what the email said is:
"The one on the right; gold from Burrows cave is not really gold. A mold  was made of each piece of gold, They were each weighed then a cast was made of pure lead and then painted gold. The purpose was to have them for display in Jack Wards museum. They were to have been labeled as replicas and not gold but, they were not. When I found out about it, the museum was closed.Are you from the Rockford area?
The real gold pieces are still in the vaults in the burial crypts and are safe there.
Actually the number of artifact recovered is maybe 7000 to 8000 or 9000.
Nothing was removed from any of the burial crypts and everything is still there.
Russ"

"Now why exactly is that "sad", Bubo? "
Be weary of Rick Flavin. He has a tendency to make blistering criticism with no basis, as shown by his long history of ranting on his website. His disclaimers of profanity and hate speech pretty much sum it up.

[E.P. Grondine]

The only ancestor shrine known in that area was in a cave...

Once again you leave out the key information, Bubo.
What ancestor shrine is that?

So all of your information on Burrow's "objects" in your database came from straight from Burrows?

Yes...

Glad we cleared that up.

Now why exactly is that "sad", Bubo?
Be weary of Rick Flavin. He has a tendency to make blistering criticism with no basis, as shown by his long history of ranting on his website. His disclaimers of profanity and hate speech pretty much sum it up.

Standard tactics, Bubo: Con men usually make the same kind of claims here at NAFPS when they're caught, and everyone here has had the same kind of tactic pulled on them. We've seen it before, and we've seen those claims  repeated by those they've conned.

Flavin set out detailed evidence of this particular fraud. Exposing these con men is not "hate speech".

Flavin's frustration at not being able to expose them is understandable. They've enjoyed financial success with their con, while he had no financial success writing articles exposing them, but instead has had his effort drain him and affect his personal life. As the con men put it, "No one cares."

[If anyone here at NAFPS is in touch with any Native American media, this story needs more coverage, as every Barnes and Noble and Borders in the country is being used to perpetrate this fraud.]

Flavin's accounts of the tactics they used on him are really classic. It is unfortunate that he did not discover the rest of this ring, and that his efforts to expose them met with so little success. But then the ring is so large, and Flavin's resources so limited. He worked alone, out of his own pocket.

The part of particular interest in Flavin's account is where he was conned by the fellow in contact with the "chemist moving between the US and British Columbia". This is the same reason why John Moss's "suicide" is so interesting.

Have you learned anymore about John Moss yet, Bubo?

Why don't you tell us something about yourself, Bubo? We still don't know when you began your research, nor why.

[BuboAhab]

"What ancestor shrine is that?"
Obviously, it is today called Burrows Cave. Are you following along that it was documented in the DeSoto Chronicles?

"Glad we cleared that up."
What is your point?

One type of Diversion is Ad-hominem. That means attacking the person that says something, instead of focusing on the material presented. My view of objects is Objective - not subjective views.

[E.P. Grondine]

What ancestor shrine is that?
Obviously, it is today called Burrows Cave. Are you following along that it was documented in the DeSoto Chronicles?

Bubo, no cave was mentioned in the DeSoto Chronicles. Mississippian and coastal Algonquin ancestor shrines were above ground.

Glad we cleared that up.
What is your point?

Bubo, either you're an active participant in this fraud ring, or you're one of their willing victims. The only question is which.

What you haven't told us is the reason for your interest in this. When did you begin your research, and why?

One type of Diversion is Ad-hominem. That means attacking the person that says something, instead of focusing on the material presented. My view of objects is Objective - not subjective views.

I am familiar with ad-hominem attacks, having been subjected to many of them during my research on recent comet and asteroid impacts.

But my view of this ring of con men is all too objective.

E.P. Grondine
"Man and Impact in the Americas", and
"Amazing Stories"