Sizzle Flambé says Hello

[Sizzle Flambé]

Joining you at Debbie's invitation, after tussling with Betsy Ashby in the Usenet newsgroup alt.native for a while.

I write poetry, and also have a programmer's habit of collecting an object library (using tinyurl.com to save message-ID mnemonics), which has been progressively awkward for Ms. Ashby:

<http://tinyurl.com/bashby2>
<http://tinyurl.com/betsy-ashby>
<http://tinyurl.com/betsy-ashby-1>
<http://tinyurl.com/betsy-ashby-2>
<http://tinyurl.com/betsy-ashby-genocide>
<http://tinyurl.com/betsy-ashby-rulebreaker>
<http://tinyurl.com/betsy-ashby-bigot>
<http://tinyurl.com/betsy-ashby-hypocrite>
<http://tinyurl.com/betsy-ashby-diamonds>
<http://tinyurl.com/guardian-insults-hawaiians>

Ms. Ashby's heartless attacks on an elderly couple continued after the husband's sudden (and apparently self-inflicted) death, giving the new widow no peace to mourn. In this ghoulish malevolence she was joined by another woman, whom I also saluted in verse:

<http://tinyurl.com/malica-charnel-thread>
<http://tinyurl.com/monica-charles-lies>
<http://tinyurl.com/monica-charles-1>
<http://tinyurl.com/monica-charles-2>
<http://tinyurl.com/monica-charles-3>
<http://tinyurl.com/monica-charles-4>

As this person has joined Ms. Ashby in attacking NAFPS & Dr. Carroll, I think you may be excused some schadenfreude in savoring these poems in return. Bon appétit!

P.S. I took the liberty of citing NAFPS among others at:
<http://tinyurl.com/culturevulturelinks1>

[Cetan]

If you have some suspicion that someone may be a fraud or exploiter please give your evidence; if you just want to sling mud and insult a well known elder like Monica take it back to alt.native or go throw mud at indianz.combatzone

[Sizzle Flambé]

As to Monica J. Charles' long history of dishonesty and disinformation, <http://tinyurl.com/monica-charles-lies> includes quotes-and-cites from News from Indian Country specifically about her to that effect.

The very next link, <http://tinyurl.com/monica-charles-1>, quotes-and-links-to her racist claim that "Indians are HUMAN BEINGS. Whites are not."

The subsequent links concern her paradoxically making common cause with Betsy Ashby, in order to "sic" that abusive white-supremacist on unenrolled fellow Indians with whom Monica had had a falling-out. The harassment included publishing home addresses, the fear of Ashby's supporters staging raids,... it's not pretty at all. One man died <http://tinyurl.com/obit-ray-w-wilson-jr> -- and Monica cruelly mocked his widow <http://tinyurl.com/why-malica-charnel>, but that doesn't impair your respect for her at all, does it now?

[Rattlebone]

 I don't like Ashby, but all I see here is you words in those links for the most part, and little to none of her's.

 So was this thread you sharing your poetry about her??? That is all I see there, and I was hoping for more evidence of her foul behavior.

[Sizzle Flambé]

"Bashby" is a poem, yes, and is not entered as "evidence". It presumes prior knowledge on the part of the reader.

My Usenet posts either (a) contain links you may follow, or (b) are in reply to earlier posts which you may see by clicking the thread title at the top. These are snapshots in the discussions, not webpages about the discussions, so they're not as self-contained with footnotes and all; you can follow the discussions "live", so to speak.

[Cetan]

I didn not see anything in the links giving any evidence that Monica Charles is a fraud, and as far as being a supporter of John Graham, well no one will ever really know the truth of what happens and graham will not be standing trial. As far as her dilike and distrust of whites, that is probably based on a lifetime of experience and who cares (except maybe some white twinkies).

[Sizzle Flambé]

Well, Cetan, I see you choose your words carefully. No, no evidence of Monica Charles being a fraud, because no-one's accusing her of that particular form of dishonesty. Other kinds, yes, like disinformation and malicious smear jobs, but not for personal financial gain. Again, the links and threads are there for all (with open eyes) to see.

[Cetan]

This forum is for information about Frauds and those that sell ceremony, not to throw insults at those you dont like or agree with

[Sizzle Flambé]

Ah, so you're not aware of Betsy Ashby's history, her "Gathering of the Tribes" ceremony-selling festivals (a label taken from another group), her subsequent efforts to drive out of business the vendors who would not participate with her, her attacks on Al Carroll as a fake Indian, and on NAFPS itself as a "white nationalist group"?

And you're not aware that Monica Charles backs her play?

[Moma_porcupine]

Hi Sizzle Flambe and welcome

I agree with you that there is many ways of being a fraud and an exploiter, and one of the ones we run into here a lot is people making a big show of going after people they label frauds, when they hypocritically support and defend other frauds and exploiters, who happen to fit with their own agenda. I also agree that it's good to encourage some critical examination of people who have a pattern of behaving like this

I'm sure you have seen I've already said a lot about Betsy in the enemies of NAFPS thread. I don't know the other person you mentioned in this thread and haven't had time to read through all the links you posted. 

But it gets tricky when people who seem to haver another agenda get the support and backing of some otherwise good Native people. If you try and discredit the people who support these people, a lot of people are going to get offended. It may be more effective to just focus on pointing out the facts, or how you see the main person who is creating the problems, showing how they seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouth, or being dishonest or otherwise is doing harm, and hope others make constructive choices in how they choose to interact with the main problem.

Just my 2 cents worth...

[Sizzle Flambé]

It may be more effective to just focus on pointing out the facts, [...] showing how they seem to be talking out of both sides of their mouth, or being dishonest or otherwise is doing harm [...].

Yes, well, that's why I provided links.

If it would be better to provide some sourced quotes those links led to:

| Monica Charles ... becomes "a person of interest"
| and the focus of some investigators because of
| information and statements she posts on the internet
| that appear to be an intentional attempt to create
| confusion in the Aquash and Peltier cases, a commonly
| used tactic by AIM leaders or supporters over the
| years to mislead journalists and the public.

  -- News From Indian Country
     <http://tinyurl.com/annie-mae-timeline-iv-2>

| [Monica] Charles emerges as one of the few and
| loudest supporters of John Graham in recent years,
| posting discredited and false information online
| and drawing the attention of defense attorneys
| and federal authorities.

  -- News From Indian Country
     <http://tinyurl.com/annie-mae-timeline-iii-3>

"Indians are HUMAN BEINGS. Whites are not." -- Monica Charles,
<http://tinyurl.com/monica-says-whites-not-human>

Her attacks on other people in alt.native... did you want me to
quote them at length here too? Can't people read them there?

[Cetan]

 Monica Charles ... becomes "a person of interest"
| and the focus of some investigators because of
| information and statements she posts on the internet
| that appear to be an intentional attempt to create
| confusion in the Aquash and Peltier cases, a commonly
| used tactic by AIM leaders or supporters over the
| years to mislead journalists and the public.
 
Nothing wrong with that, and as far as grahams case goes - well it was thrown out of court

As far as believing whites are not Human, everyone has a right to their own beliefs and looking at the history of white actions in this country, can you blame someone for thinking like that?

[Sizzle Flambé]

Cetan: "Nothing wrong with that" ?

Nothing wrong with misleading journalists and the public ?

Nothing wrong with posting discredited and false information online ?

Nothing wrong with dehumanizing an entire large group of people based on their color ?

Okay, we're not on the same ethical channel here.

[Cetan]

why is it that white people always get so upset when people don't like them?

[Sizzle Flambé]

why is it that white people always get so upset when people don't like them?

Why do you assume it's only white people getting upset?

Here's Ben Carnes, Sun Dance^* Chief of the Choctaw, rebuking Monica's anti-white racism:

{Reformatted with cleanup from <http://groups.google.com/group/alt.native/msg/8b9508350ad8e819>}

From: "Ben_Carnes"  <mountain_homie@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Monica. Words from the Brown Idiot
Date: 16 Aug 2006

Communicating through the internet really sucks. First, you don't get to hear the inflection of a person's voice. Second, you don't see the person's face. and Third, we are still strangers to each other.

I am Kitty's husband, the one you called a brown idiot.  You know whether I agreed with you or not, I personally supported your stand on principle for Johnm Boys Graham and Arlo.  My true opinion on the entire case of Annie Mae, is the M-----F---ing feds were behind it. I don't excuse the person who pulled the trigger, but until the feds are on trial for Annie Mae's murder, every so called evidence is suspect to me.  We may never know the truth.

But on the other hand the one truth that I do know, which I know that you don't know is that I fell in love with a woman who happens to be white and does know who all her blood ancestry is, and is pretty damn proud of who she is.  She has never claimed to be Indian.  I spoke with a Mohawk woman once who told me that what business is it of anyone else's if you fall in love.  The color of a person's skin shouldn't matter.  That came out of a discussion because another Mohawk woman made a comment, "What is a man of his stature doing marrying a woman like that".  That comment came from a mother of another Sundancer, but I am accustomed to racism from our own people, even when it sounds like Aryan Nation rhetoric or bullshit.  Am I weak because the Creator or God allows me to love one of his children?  Are you saying the Creator is wrong for allowing me to love someone and their daughter who respects our way of life?  Come on Monica, I didn't wake up one morning and decide I'm weak, I guess I'll go and find me a white woman.

You have no idea of what my life has been like, who I have been with, nor have you lived the experiences I have lived.  Yet, because I am with a white woman, I am a brown idiot. I can truly say that I am disappointed at what I consider a verbal affront through a public ng. I personally expected better of you. I know that you sometimes feel that you have to feel that you have to defend yourself from attacks, but I saw this as totally unnecessary. My wife was not attacking you, she only made a humourous remark to lighten the situation, and somehow I became a brown idiot.

When I met my wife, Kitty, I had pretty much gave up on any meaningful relationship with women.  I felt that my life was to be one of solitude, and working for the people.  If it meant that I may end up dying and never having children to carry on for me, then that is what I would do to honor the path the Creator had set for me.  Instead, we met and began a relationship. And Monica it hasn't been easy for her, because she is white.  But as I said, she knows who she is.  Look at it this way, say that if all you knew was that you were Indian, but didn't know what Nation you belonged to. Does that make you any less Native?

I am of the Choctaw Nation.  I traveled to Mississippi to the reserve there, and one of the Choctaw women asked me in our language if she was white. I said no, she is sicilian and Irish. I got an approving "Oh!" instead of a disapproving "Oh."  To me that just illustrates the stupidity of judging a person by the color of their skin.  I believe that we need to look what is in their hearts than the color of their skin.

In the practice of our spirituality, I have heard through the Lakota people that if you aren't of their blood, there are some ceremonies that non-Lakotas won't be able to perform.  So does that mean the Creator is a racist?  Is that also to imply that the white people are a mistake of the Creator?

When my wife first met me, she did not know that I was a ceremonial leader, mainly because I didn't tell her.  I wanted to be known just for who I am, not because of my "stature" or as an activist/warrior, or whatever people perceived me as.  I am just Ben, but I am stuck with being a Chief. And I respect that honor so much that I have paid for it through enduring the jealousies and enviousness of others.  But the people whom I have met and worked with and helped have respected me. As a Chief, there is responsibilities that has fallen upon my wife, and she is terrified of failing and disappointing me and other Elders and leaders.  But she is learning. And she is asking other Native women for help so that she can fulfill her responsibilities. She doesn't relish being the Chief's wife. She would rather be Ben's wife and not have to deal with the rest.

She is not an Annette Claypoole, but it seems your presumption placed her in that category, and I feel that is quite unfair. No one has known her to be a groupie of any kind and I have been the first Native man she has had a relationship with.

I had really hoped that there would have been more intelligent discussion on this ng than what I have seen. I can totally ignore the immature and childish cooments I have seen here, and I sometimes wonder why I waste any time.  I really wanted to see a place where discussions could be held. And opposing viewpoints could be discussed to show each other something we are over looking.

Frosty has been one of the few who can stay on point and elaborate on any topic, without falling into bs. I have utmost respect for his presence on this ng.  Which is the reason, I have began a new topic since it was not germane to his original topic.

I wonder if all the people on this group were to sit and appear before each other, with Elders present, minus barry and dirt clod, etc., if each of those people would behave in the same way they do on this group.  I actually doubt it.  Anonymity behind a keyboard gives some people the courage to speak in a way they wouldn't to a person face. It is a cowardly antic like writing on an elementary bathroom wall.

So maybe Monica you would like to give me a call so that we can talk about what happened here? I would be more than happy to talk with you over the phone. Just email me and make arrangments to talk with us. I do believe we will come to a better understanding at least through verbal communication.  I've been in touch with one of Arlo's cousins. A Lakota who calls me brother and my wife sister, about the information you have shared about Arlo's situation.

It is a small world after all, and we should all be careful about the hurtful things we say to one another, regardless of the circumstances.

In Unity,
Ben Carnes

Notice that Monica Charles had called the Sun Dance^* Chief of the Choctaw a "brown idiot" for having a white wife. And yet here you are, getting offended that someone would dare "insult a well known elder like Monica" by calling her on her blatant racism. Talk about double standards!

*_{Later revised to note, per Rattlebone's correction, that Carnes is not the (overall national) Chief.}