James Arthur Ray - Angel Valley Resort DeathSweat in Sedona: 3 dead, 20 injured

[ska]

Dear Critter,

I do not find your words to be cold, blunt or destructive.  Forgive me if I took anything you said out of context.

It is not my intention to derail the focus of this thread, which is very important.  Rather,  I hope we can focus on the issues of fraud, predation, cultural appropriation and the destructive, even genocidal, consequences of these.  The issues of why people pray or what they pray for is not really our concern, but this is only my opinion. 

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Agreed.  Plastic lodges are death traps, and that is the issue here. 

[NDN_Outlaw]

Is Ray stilled locked up or did he weasel his way out?

[Defend the Sacred]

Out on bail. They took his passport. They let him keep his hormones and herpes drugs.

[nemesis]

I just wanted to share something I feel may be relevant to the issue of the anecdotal reports of people crying out that they were dying and Ray's response that it is "a good day to die".

Some years ago here in the UK there was a TV programme called "Extreme Celebrity Detox" in which various celebrities take ayahusaca

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/extreme-celebrity-detox/4od#2922381

This whole Celebrity Detox series is interesting for a range of reasons and anyone with some spare time on their hands might want to check it out, although I suspect it will be a depressing task.

This is a long video but it gets interesting is at approx 17.15 in where the ayahusaca ritual starts

At 20.25 a woman who has no experience of ayahuasca reports hallucinations and being afraid of dying.  I understand that the subjective experience of dying is extremely common to ayhusaca due to the experience of time dilation.  Heartbeats seem minutes apart and people genuinely believe that they are dying.

29.40 it gets interesting again.  Lots of puking so don't watch at meal times. At 32.16 is gets very interesting.  The other female, Nina, becomes convinced that she is going to die.

I wonder if this might throw some light on the activities at Sedona?

[Defend the Sacred]

It's really common for the nuagers and pretendians to present the fake ceremony as a "death-rebirth" experience. Adding in a drug that makes them feel like they're dying is something I think would appeal to many in that crowd. It fits the mainstream, consumerist belief that taking a drug or buying a weekend retreat will immediately make them enlightened, that faster and more intense is always better.

Though since people were actually dying, yeah, people definitely felt like they were dying, with or without the drug trip.

[nemesis]

Perhaps I was unclear in my post

Please accept my apologies and allow me to clarify

My point is that

a) when people die from heat exposure / suffocation they tend to slip into unconsciousness and just die.  Shouting and screaming "I'm going to die!" is not, at least not to my knowledge, typical behaviour of dying people.  It is typical of people who have taken ayahuasca.

b) Ray's response to the shouting and screaming, that is his proclamation that "Today is a good day to die!" seems to me to be the response of a man who expects such shouting and screaming to occur and is thus unconcerned that it might mean that people are actually dying (which, as you pointed out, they were).

The above suggest to me that he knowingly and covertly administered ayahuasca or some other similar substance, to his victims.

[Defend the Sacred]

Good point. And no apology needed :-) This is good info to have and I'm sorry if I came off as disagreeing or angry at you. And didn't some of the survivors say they were given some kind of "herbal drink"? We also saw pictures of their big beverage dispensers; they could have put anything in there.

[nemesis]

If my memory is correct I believe that Ray claimed that he had given the victims kava kava.

Kava kava is quite a mellow drug IME and does not induce this fear of dying that ayahuasca typically does.

No apology needed either :-)

[SouthwestSkeptic]

NBC's Dateline did an entire program on James Arthur Ray's deadly sweatlodge last night.  They do a fairly good job of summarizing what those of us who follow twitter already know - James Ray exercised cult-like control over his gullible victims. I'm glad the media isn't letting this tragic incident fall into the memory hole especially right before the Summer Solstice. We have more frauds than ever here in Tucson marketing their fake sweatlodges as authentic and not anything like James Ray's sweatlodge. You still have to sign a waiver, however. It doesn't seen to occur to people who talk about "intentions" all the time that the "intention" you have in your mind when you ask someon to sign a waiver is to avoid accountability when something goes wrong.

Here's a link where you can watch the entire program

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/37620054#37645203

Ironicly, there will be even MORE sweat lodges this year in Sedona. Especially next weekend, the twinkie high-holiday - Summer Solstice. James Ray is being marketed as a "defective product."  The solution being promoted is to eliminate James Ray's destructive fake spiritual hucksterism, while promoting the budget spiritual hucksterism of the remaining frauds. Fortunately for the suckers re-born every minute, we're having a cold snap in Arizona. It's a chilly 80 degrees today in Tucson and it's even cooler up north. That may prevent another unnecessary death - this year at least.

Rose

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Thanks for posting the link, I caught just the tail end of it last night and was meaning to find the full episode.. you saved me the search.   

[SouthwestSkeptic]

My pleasure - feel free to pass it along to everyone interested.

Rose

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

ABC is running a show on this tonight on Primetime, called 'mind games'.  10pm EST.. 

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Welll.. it was good up until they visited some white nuage woman and her plastic lodge in a tent with a zipper door and plastic crates for people to sit on inside.. and called it a 'proper sweat lodge'..  

[Defend the Sacred]

Welll.. it was good up until they visited some white nuage woman and her plastic lodge in a tent with a zipper door and plastic crates for people to sit on inside.. and called it a 'proper sweat lodge'..  

 

I guess now the producers of Primetime will be up for lawsuits the next time we have deaths from a similar "sweat".

And 'tis the season. Right now, and especially on the weekends, Nuagers from coast to coast and continent to continent are firing up their plastic lodges.