Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters

[BlackWolf]

Paul said

I know when something is wrong. like a process that is suppose to take only a couple of years that drags out for 30 or 40 years is wrong. or that it has gotten to the point of requiring millions of Tribal dollars to get through the process. or to get so tired of the red tape that they just give up and do with out help.

Do you know why it takes 30 or 40 years Paul? 

If you go here and click on "fraudulent group list", I counted over 30 of these fraudulent groups that petetioned for Federal Recognition.
http://taskforce.cherokee.org/Home/tabid/106/Default.aspx

What they should do is to start eliminating these fraudulent groups a lot faster then they already are.

[BlackWolf]

This link shows over six million dollars in grants given to fake tribes in the past five years by the Administration for Native Americans under the Community Services Block Grant Act.

http://taskforce.cherokee.org/Portals/3/Exhibits/Exhibit%205.pdf

[Paul123]

Paul said

I know when something is wrong. like a process that is suppose to take only a couple of years that drags out for 30 or 40 years is wrong. or that it has gotten to the point of requiring millions of Tribal dollars to get through the process. or to get so tired of the red tape that they just give up and do with out help.

Do you know why it takes 30 or 40 years Paul?  

If you go here and click on "fraudulent group list", I counted over 30 of these fraudulent groups that petetioned for Federal Recognition.
http://taskforce.cherokee.org/Home/tabid/106/Default.aspx

What they should do is to start eliminating these fraudulent groups a lot faster then they already are.

Well 30ish doesn't sound so bad considering how large the list is that you linked to. Two workers should be able to root out 30 fake tribes in about 30 weeks. Just send for one of their membership applications and read it. Perhaps just to be sure, you could go visit their tribal land,,,, errr make that their Post Office Box...


So what should be done to move it along faster...

I'd suggest that the Dept. get off of it's lazy a$$ and do some WORK for a change and cut out those 3 hour lunch breaks.

If my boss gave me 2 years to get something done I may be able to explain why it isn't finished after 3 years, if I have a real good excuse,,, but no way am I going to keep my job after 30 years and the job still isn't done, no matter what the excuse.

Unless of course my boss had actually told me to just pretend to do your job, we don't really ever want you to approve any new Tribes. Well then, that would be another thing. If this is the case then the BIA is doing a GREAT JOB.
No way you can convince me that this isn't the case.
(But go ahead and try if you wish).

 At some point 'ya begin to think that the BIA has spent more money stalling a Tribe than they would have had to give the Tribe,,, ha,ha...

@BlackWolf,
It may sound like we differ on some of this (well perhaps some) but I think that you are spot on with a lot of what you have said in this thread. 

[Paul123]

This link shows over six million dollars in grants given to fake tribes in the past five years by the Administration for Native Americans under the Community Services Block Grant Act.

http://taskforce.cherokee.org/Portals/3/Exhibits/Exhibit%205.pdf

so let's see,,, 6 mil devied up by 250 tribes over 5 years,,, that's only about 4800 bucks each. (ha,ha)

And Please try to convince me that this money was money that ANY Fed. Tribe would have gotten to begin with. (Other than the amounts that the Fed. Tribes also got along with everyone else in these programs) The Fed. Tribes did get some of this money too. If one is going to blast a group for getting something then I think it would only be fair to report both sides of the story by stating how much the Fed. Tribes also got.

Also,, please provide the numbers of all other block grant money that went to  NON-NDN projects... Block grant money was NEVER intended for NDNs per say, so if some groups got some,,, so what... I'd bet that none of it went to any post office box NDNs anyway. It was ment to help poor people from all groups. From the link below one can see that ALL groups did/will get some small slice of this pie.

http://www.hhs.gov/recovery/programs/acf/csbg.html
quote from link:
On February 17, 2009, President Obama signed into law the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (Recovery Act).   The Recovery Act provides for $1 billion in additional funds to the Community Services Block Grant (CSBG) program for Federal Fiscal Year 2009.   As with regularly appropriated CBSG funds, Recovery Act funds may be used for the reduction of poverty, the revitalization of low-income communities, and the empowerment of low-income families and individuals in rural and urban areas to become fully self-sufficient.

Distribution of Funds:

States will receive Recovery Funds, as a separate allotment, under the same formula used for funds allocated under regular annual appropriations.  Fifty States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and Federal and State-recognized Indian Tribes and Tribal organizations will receive $985 million in Recovery Funds.  The Recovery Act mandates that States pass through no less than 99 percent of their Recovery Act allocations for grants to “eligible entities” under the CSBG Act, commonly referred to as Community Action agencies.

To claim that Fake NDNs are taking money away from "real" NDNs by quoting block grant money as the source is as much misleading propaganda as the Fake tribes use on their web sites to attract new victims,,, Uhh,, I mean members.  If 2 wrongs don't make a right,,, well then try 3. <ha,ha>
 

[Defend the Sacred]

I live native because it is who I am.
I am the women people refuse to serve in a resturtant,
I am the person people hate because of my skin.
I am the person where people treat me less than
human at times.
We don't have much here but family, we are not captislist,
we don't fit in the american ideal of what they believe to be right,

I wonder is there a difference in people
one where it is alright to claim that native blood but
they look like the non-indians so they can pass in american.
One where they take or claim rights they did not fight for.

I wonder as i read all these claims, life is hard here
I wonder as we stand and fight for each right that the
United States try to take from us where are they who
claim our blood.

<snip lots of good stuff only for bandwidth reasons>
... theres 70% unemployment, i have friends who had no heat and hot water in their house even with infants even during the winter, whens the last time you heard of people dying of meningitis and diphtheria, well my Nation has suffered such losses,   
and of course all these wannabees and frauds want to be native, but i guarantee you they wont want all the things I've been discussing, they couldn't live like this, they want all this imaginary prestige but none of the horror.

Thank you for your words. And to everyone in this thread who has stressed what so many NDN people are going through. The non-NDNs I meet who "want to be Native" - with their made-in-China dreamcatchers, their plastic sweatlodges, their feelings of entitlement - haven't the slightest idea of what real NDN people go through. Not the slightest idea.

[BlackWolf]

The wannabe privileges:

1. I can claim any blood degree I want, because I have no proof.

2. I can claim any tribe I want, because I have no proof.

3. I can claim as many tribes as I want, because I have no proof.

4. I can claim as much Indian history as I want, because I have no proof.

5. I can claim as many tribal rolls as I want, because I have no proof.


The authentic Indian privilege:

1. I claim only what I can prove, everything else originates from there.

by David Cornsilk

[Moma_porcupine]

Besides feeling disgusted at non native people getting even $1 of funding that might rightfully belong to a Native community , I think there is a real problem when the non native government, which in case people have forgot, has a long history of setting things up that will lead to the weakening and demise of Native people and especially tribal governments, pays non natives or PODIAs who are not accepted as citizens of a real tribe, a reward for wrongly claiming a Native political identity. 

Although this thread was started in response to people saying people of distant ancestry need support from the tribes that they aren't getting, I notice no one is wanting to explain what exactly these people aren't getting . Instead all people want to do is complain that it's unfair that the tribes that recognize these questionable people as NDN , aren't recognized as legit themselves.

Besides $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, I suspect reinforcement of a fake identity is what a lot of these fake tribes are all about . It seems many of them are mutual support clubs for wannabes where people exchange the favour of not asking each other obvious questions about questionable claims.

I can see why the real Cherokee people say it isn't likely for someone of Cherokee descent to be unable to prove it, as there is so many records and lists.

For one thing, there was more than one generation alive when these rolls were made, so, it would usually have been several ancestors who somehow fell through the cracks , not just one ancestor. Several generations are alive at any given time. There is children, parents, their parents and even grandparents.

If someone claims to be a 1/4  Cherokee, it would mean that their 8 Cherokee gr gr gr grandparents , their 4 Cherokee gr gr grandparents and 2 Cherokee gr grandparents, and their Cherokee grandparent, who in most cases would have had different family histories, were all never recorded. Maybe this sometimes happened , but I can sure see good reason for skeptism when so many people claim such an improbable family history.

Even if no direct ancestor made it onto any roll or record, it seems there should be some people who could be proved to be aunts uncles, and brothers and sisters. It does get really hard to believe when people claim that none of their proven relatives were recorded- especially if someone is claiming a substanial amount of Native descent.

One of the things I notice is that people who really want to be Indian can usually produce evidence to support their claims. The problem is, selective evidence isn't proof. 

For example, people frequently say a relative of theirs is on one of the rolls so they have proof.

A basic fact which is known to anyone who has tried to figure out even a bit of their genealogy is that not everyone in the same area with the same surname is related, ( especially if this is a common European originating surname).  Even if everyone with this surname in the area is related , it's through sharing the same patrilineal line, and often this line is of non native origins.

In other words if a family comes from Scotland with 4 sons and lives in a small town , and one of these sons marries a Cherokee woman named Sally, and the other 3 brothers marry non native women , none of the descendents of these 3 brothers with non native wives will have any Cherokee blood from Sally ( I know this is really really obvious, but it is absolutely astounding how many people claiming they have proof of Native descent make this claim based on nothing bthe fact that some people in the same area with the same surname were recorded as Indian.)

I also think many of these patrilinaely related families have an oral tradition of being related to some Indians somewhere back there - except the details, like that this was through gr gr grandpa's brother's marriage have been long forgotten.

Another problem is , if someone wants to find evidence one of their ancestors was Native, most non native people can find something that might support this claim.

For example, if anyone goes to a search of the Dawes roll and types in the first and last names of all of their gr gr grandparents siblings, there is so many people listed on this roll the chances are very good  they will find a at least one person with the same name who is close to the same age as the person in their own family.

Other records and rolls which don't provide nearly as much detailed information as the Dawes rolls makes it even easier to find a possible match.     

To prove this is really the same person , would require gathering all the records left by the researcher's gr ( ? ) grandparents sibling,  and of the person with the same name who was recorded as Indian. Only by comparing all the available records left by these people  ,  and seeing how things like exact birth dates, marriages , children , where they lived and when they died , match up , can it be proven if they were in fact the same person.

But people who are only interested in finding evidence one of their ancestors was Native often fail to do this.

I guess sometimes inexperienced researchers might have a reason for jumping to the wrong conclusion. Every family tree has dead ends and if someones family lived in the same area as someone with the same name who was recorded as Native, and they couldn't figure out who this person in their own family was, it would be understandable to think maybe they were related, especially if there is a family story about Native ancestry back there somewhere.

But that is far from real proof.

Real genealogies always contain basic genealogical details such as the dates/places  of birth, marriage and death and children, and sources where this can be verified. Real genealogies are careful to point out that conclusions that can't be proven are just "maybe". Not a fact.

What really annoys me is when people make a big deal out of being NDN and how they are wrongly unrecognized,  but they refuse to include these basic genealogical details with their claim. If people want to keep this information private, thats fine, but it seems completely dishonest when these people also  expect to be recognized as an NDN or a tribe. 

I don't mean to sound like i am questioning the personal claims of  people who participate in on line discussions. It's only when these claims of an NDN identity are being made to gain some sort of public trust or public money that providing adaquet information to verify this seems to be a public right.

I also don't like it when people put out genealogical misinformation which will potentially mislead many sincere well meaning people into believing their ancestors were Native when they often were not. Or into wasting their time trying to find out if this is true...

I guess in some places or circumstances someone might be of Native descent and not be able to prove this. Especially if they or their parent / grandparent was separated from their birth family.  I sympathize with that. But if people really are descendents and can't prove it , it seems they would be better for them to only claim what they can prove .... Even if they are in a situation where they feel they have real evidence and it's hard not knowing for sure, it is probably better to be honest about this and say so . People who may be descendents , and who are vulnerable in their inability to be sure who they are, just set themself up to be disrespected when they make claims they can't really prove. When they can't answer the questions, they will then have to deal with being labeled a wannabe.

This doesn't seem like anything anyone who was sincere would want to set up for themselves.  And as so many people very rightly deserve to have their claims doubted, I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to just accept an unverifiable claim. 

[tachia]

I read everyones post with interest and
maybe a little more understanding.

I never could figure out why people wanted to claim
native blood.
Some people are very passionate about a great great ect.............
grandmothers or grandfathers that was said to be native.
I agree that it is their family and they should be proud of
who they are.

I never had a choice in the matter,
I look native, I am 7/8 Lakota/Dakota with that 1/8 oglala blood
I am enrolled, I live on the rez
I live native because it is who I am.
I am the women people refuse to serve in a resturtant,
I am the person people hate because of my skin.
I am the person where people treat me less than
human at times.
We don't have much here but family, we are not captislist,
we don't fit in the american ideal of what they believe to be right,

I wonder is there a difference in people
one where it is alright to claim that native blood but
they look like the non-indians so they can pass in american.
One where they take or claim rights they did not fight for.

I wonder as i read all these claims, life is hard here
I wonder as we stand and fight for each right that the
United States try to take from us where are they who
claim our blood.

Forgive me if I hurt anyone feeling it was not my intention to hurt anyone
they are just thought i have as we fight for our existence and our spirituality.
I am honored that so many have stood up to fight and each one of you are warriors
but I do wonder at times, I guess I am getting tried now.

earth ..
very well spoken .. i agree and feel the same way .. ..
i have been reading this thread recently yet staying out of it for reasons of my own ..
yet in reading your words .. and the words of others in here .. all trying to explain how hard it really is to be ndn .. i thought you might be interested in something i wrote on this subject, in reply to some new agers, several years ago ..

i too appologize if my words hurt anyone's feelings .. but these are my feelings .. and my feelings, the feelings of our peoples, are valid too .. ..

if you were not born and raised ndn then you are not ndn and never will be ndn ..

the only exception to this is those who actually take the time to go live with their peoples and learn the ways .. to give up the idea of “white privilege” .. to give up their comfortable lifestyle and literally trade it for one of poverty .. and that takes a lifetime .. it takes RESPECT and a genuine desire over all else to be a part of your peoples ..

if you are a PODIA .. (person of distant indian ancestry) .. why not just be proud of that? .. why not just be proud of your heritage and leave it at that?

if you know from your family which Nation/Tribe/Band you descend from, be proud of that knowledge and maybe try supporting those people in their struggles without the need to BE them .. if you only know that you are “part ndn”, chances are that you will never figure out which nation your ’supposed’ ndn ancestry comes from, will get frustrated, and will just pick a tribe that sounds ‘kewl’ and claim to BE ndn .. and in doing so you will piss off and bring harm the real ndn’s .. .. ..

i am sorry for being so harsh .. i am just sick to death of this crap .. all these whites who NOW want to be ndn .. some GGGGG grandmother was a Cherokee princess crap .. .. now that it is somehow popular to be ndn you all want claim you are .. that’s BS .. .. it harms us and it harms you!

where was your family when being ndn was NOT “kewl”???!!!!

where was your family when ours were (and still are) struggling on a daily basis to merely survive the ongoing 515 year GENOCIDE?

where was your family when ours were given smallpox infected blankets, on purpose, and dying in droves, entire nations obliterated?

where was your family when entire nations of our peoples were being annihilated by your manifest destiny?

where was your family when ALL of the treaties were systematically broken for the benefit and greed of the whites?

where was your family when our main food sources were being deliberately taken from us, the buffalo wantonly slaughtered, our crops and orchards burned, in order to starve us out?

where was your family when ours were being forced on death marches to far away lands to make room for more whites?

where was your family when ours were forced into concentration camps called reservations?

where was your family when ours were (and still are) living in forced abject poverty on and off the reservation?

where was your family when ours were (and still are) experiencing daily bigotry, prejudice and hate crimes?

where were your families children when ours were being stolen from us, forcibly sent to the white mans “christian mission” schools and abused, molested and murdered?

where was your family when ours were being FORCIBLY assimilated, relocated, christianized and otherwise deprived of our rights?

where was your family worshiping when our spirituality was against the law (until 1978), and practicing it was punishable by death?

where was your family when our young women were being sterilized (and still are) without consent or knowledge by your government in yet another act of GENOCIDE?

where was your family when our women were forced to give birth in an IHS hospital only to be told that their baby was stillborn, when in truth the baby was stolen and adopted out to a white family?

where was your family when ours were (and still are) being denied adequate housing, health care and education?

where was your family when our lands and resources were (and still are) being stolen from us?

where was your family when our lands, water and the very air we breathe were (and still are) being poisoned by the various mining of our resources, and in the name of progress which only benefits whites?

where was your family when ours were being massacred, raped, mutilated, murdered, and forced off their own lands?

where was your family while ours were (and still are) being imprisoned, their rights violated, framed by the authorities, denied due process of law, etc?

where was your family when ours was forced to abandon a healthy diet and given instead government commodity foods which caused (and still are causing) numerous health problems and death?

where was your family while ours were (and still are) dying from the toxins, radiation and other poisons loosed in our lands, waters, and air by your disposable society demanding instant gratification of their ‘needs’ and ‘greed’?

where was your family when all these atrocities were committed against OUR families?


where IS your family NOW?

where IS your family while our culture and spirituality are being stolen from us and bastardized to fit within the white hollywood stereotypical/new age image of what is ndn in an instant gratification society?

where IS your family, safe under the umbrella of white privilege, while ours are labeled “enemy combatants” and  “terrorists” for merely fighting for our basic human rights?

where IS your family while ours are being degraded by having numerous sports teams and consumer products named after us with racist mascots and caricatures?

where IS your family while ours are experiencing the lowest age expectancy in this entire country?

where IS your family while ours are experiencing the highest levels of poverty, unemployment, infant mortality, school drop outs, suicides, abuse, addictions, violence, crimes, etc., in this entire country?

where IS your family while ours are experiencing the highest rate of miscarriages and birth defects, cancers, health problems and deaths, due to the poisons we are subjected to on our own lands?

where IS your family while ours are ‘graciously’ being given toxic FEMA trailers to live in, a gift that we are expected to pay for the transportation of, a gift that will kill us, exactly like the smallpox blankets did?

where IS your family while ours are fighting to have our treaties upheld?

where IS your family while ours are fighting to regain our lands, waters and resources and all else that was stolen from us?

where IS your family while ours are fighting to keep you from stealing what little we have left to us?

where IS your family while ours are fighting the great many issues facing our peoples right now?

where IS your family while ours is struggling to hold onto our culture in the midst of uncertainty about our very survival as ndn’s?

where IS your family while ours are struggling with alcohol and drug addictions, a disease deliberately inflicted upon us by the white man?

where IS your family while ours ARE ndn?

this list could go on and on, yet hopefully you get the idea from this partial list .. ..
so you want to be ndn? .. why? .. ..  because it is popular right now? .. because it seems to be really ‘kewl’ to be ndn? .. because hollywood and the new age crap has you believing that being ndn is easy, mystical, beautiful etc? ..

you want to be ndn? .. do you want to give up your comfortable white privilege? ..  do you want to give up your entire life as you know it? ..do you want to give up your preconceived BS notions of what being ndn is? .. can you make the enormous sacrifices necessary to re-connect with your peoples? ..

or do you want to “be ndn” from the comfort of your home, while maintaining your white privilege, your job, and your lifestyle? ..  do you want to be ndn just for a weekend here and there at some new age retreat? .. or at some twinkie pow wow or ceremony? .. or as a member of some fake twinkie tribe? .. do you just want to fill your home with tacky made in china knickknacks, paintings of half naked noble savages, and hang a dreamcatcher from your rearview mirror and other inappropriate places .. just so you can brag to your friends how ndn you are? ..

the great majority of you would not last one day on any reservation .. .. ..

in the spirit of my ancestors ..
tachia

[Rattlebone]

Besides feeling disgusted at non native people getting even $1 of funding that might rightfully belong to a Native community , I think there is a real problem when the non native government, which in case people have forgot, has a long history of setting things up that will lead to the weakening and demise of Native people and especially tribal governments, pays non natives or PODIAs who are not accepted as citizens of a real tribe, a reward for wrongly claiming a Native political identity. 

Although this thread was started in response to people saying people of distant ancestry need support from the tribes that they aren't getting, I notice no one is wanting to explain what exactly these people aren't getting . Instead all people want to do is complain that it's unfair that the tribes that recognize these questionable people as NDN , aren't recognized as legit themselves.

Besides $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, I suspect reinforcement of a fake identity is what a lot of these fake tribes are all about . It seems many of them are mutual support clubs for wannabes where people exchange the favour of not asking each other obvious questions about questionable claims.

I can see why the real Cherokee people say it isn't likely for someone of Cherokee descent to be unable to prove it, as there is so many records and lists.

For one thing, there was more than one generation alive when these rolls were made, so, it would usually have been several ancestors who somehow fell through the cracks , not just one ancestor. Several generations are alive at any given time. There is children, parents, their parents and even grandparents.

If someone claims to be a 1/4  Cherokee, it would mean that their 8 Cherokee gr gr gr grandparents , their 4 Cherokee gr gr grandparents and 2 Cherokee gr grandparents, and their Cherokee grandparent, who in most cases would have had different family histories, were all never recorded. Maybe this sometimes happened , but I can sure see good reason for skeptism when so many people claim such an improbable family history.

Even if no direct ancestor made it onto any roll or record, it seems there should be some people who could be proved to be aunts uncles, and brothers and sisters. It does get really hard to believe when people claim that none of their proven relatives were recorded- especially if someone is claiming a substanial amount of Native descent.

One of the things I notice is that people who really want to be Indian can usually produce evidence to support their claims. The problem is, selective evidence isn't proof. 

For example, people frequently say a relative of theirs is on one of the rolls so they have proof.

A basic fact which is known to anyone who has tried to figure out even a bit of their genealogy is that not everyone in the same area with the same surname is related, ( especially if this is a common European originating surname).  Even if everyone with this surname in the area is related , it's through sharing the same patrilineal line, and often this line is of non native origins.

In other words if a family comes from Scotland with 4 sons and lives in a small town , and one of these sons marries a Cherokee woman named Sally, and the other 3 brothers marry non native women , none of the descendents of these 3 brothers with non native wives will have any Cherokee blood from Sally ( I know this is really really obvious, but it is absolutely astounding how many people claiming they have proof of Native descent make this claim based on nothing bthe fact that some people in the same area with the same surname were recorded as Indian.)

I also think many of these patrilinaely related families have an oral tradition of being related to some Indians somewhere back there - except the details, like that this was through gr gr grandpa's brother's marriage have been long forgotten.

Another problem is , if someone wants to find evidence one of their ancestors was Native, most non native people can find something that might support this claim.

For example, if anyone goes to a search of the Dawes roll and types in the first and last names of all of their gr gr grandparents siblings, there is so many people listed on this roll the chances are very good  they will find a at least one person with the same name who is close to the same age as the person in their own family.

Other records and rolls which don't provide nearly as much detailed information as the Dawes rolls makes it even easier to find a possible match.     

To prove this is really the same person , would require gathering all the records left by the researcher's gr ( ? ) grandparents sibling,  and of the person with the same name who was recorded as Indian. Only by comparing all the available records left by these people  ,  and seeing how things like exact birth dates, marriages , children , where they lived and when they died , match up , can it be proven if they were in fact the same person.

But people who are only interested in finding evidence one of their ancestors was Native often fail to do this.

I guess sometimes inexperienced researchers might have a reason for jumping to the wrong conclusion. Every family tree has dead ends and if someones family lived in the same area as someone with the same name who was recorded as Native, and they couldn't figure out who this person in their own family was, it would be understandable to think maybe they were related, especially if there is a family story about Native ancestry back there somewhere.

But that is far from real proof.

Real genealogies always contain basic genealogical details such as the dates/places  of birth, marriage and death and children, and sources where this can be verified. Real genealogies are careful to point out that conclusions that can't be proven are just "maybe". Not a fact.

What really annoys me is when people make a big deal out of being NDN and how they are wrongly unrecognized,  but they refuse to include these basic genealogical details with their claim. If people want to keep this information private, thats fine, but it seems completely dishonest when these people also  expect to be recognized as an NDN or a tribe. 

I don't mean to sound like i am questioning the personal claims of  people who participate in on line discussions. It's only when these claims of an NDN identity are being made to gain some sort of public trust or public money that providing adaquet information to verify this seems to be a public right.

I also don't like it when people put out genealogical misinformation which will potentially mislead many sincere well meaning people into believing their ancestors were Native when they often were not. Or into wasting their time trying to find out if this is true...

I guess in some places or circumstances someone might be of Native descent and not be able to prove this. Especially if they or their parent / grandparent was separated from their birth family.  I sympathize with that. But if people really are descendents and can't prove it , it seems they would be better for them to only claim what they can prove .... Even if they are in a situation where they feel they have real evidence and it's hard not knowing for sure, it is probably better to be honest about this and say so . People who may be descendents , and who are vulnerable in their inability to be sure who they are, just set themself up to be disrespected when they make claims they can't really prove. When they can't answer the questions, they will then have to deal with being labeled a wannabe.

This doesn't seem like anything anyone who was sincere would want to set up for themselves.  And as so many people very rightly deserve to have their claims doubted, I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to just accept an unverifiable claim. 

 Something I dislike that I think is a related  issue to what you have said here, is something I spoke to you in private about.

 This is when people fall into many of the categories you listed above, and/or might admit they have no proof of who they are other then a family story.

 However in an attempt to solidify their claims to being NDN with others they start spouting off words like "elders," and "traditional," etc etc. Thing is who's traditions are they talking about, especially when they admit they were not raised up NDN? Saying the word "elders" isn't much different in my eyes either. Sure everyone can have "elders" in their family regardless if they are NDN or not. Just because you have elders in your family that you can claim taught you right doesn't mean you had elders who were NDN, teaching you the ways and traditions of any tribe/nation.

 To me this is just another form of mimicking or emulating people in order to make false claims seem more real in order to be accepted or to gain whatever the person claiming to make these claims has set out to do.

 

 

[Moma_porcupine]

Rattlebone

However in an attempt to solidify their claims to being NDN with others they start spouting off words like "elders," and "traditional," etc etc. Thing is who's traditions are they talking about, especially when they admit they were not raised up NDN? Saying the word "elders" isn't much different in my eyes either. Sure everyone can have "elders" in their family regardless if they are NDN or not. Just because you have elders in your family that you can claim taught you right doesn't mean you had elders who were NDN, teaching you the ways and traditions of any tribe/nation.

 To me this is just another form of mimicking or emulating people in order to make false claims seem more real in order to be accepted or to gain whatever the person claiming to make these claims has set out to do.

Unless there was a close blood relationship, I would feel both exploitive and presumptuous to say "My Elders told me." Like whatever Elders were good enough to let me spend some time with them are "mine", when they have simply been generous to let me hang around. If thats what you are saying you find annoying and disrespectful, I also notice people doing that and yeah it does seem exploitive. I hope I never come across like that in anything I share here.

Sometimes I do feel I need to mention seeing something done in a traditional way or an expereince with an Elder , to explain how I see something, which I feel would be helpful to share. Even though anything I know is exceedingly basic I try to stay away from using only personal experiences . If I am trying to share something  on line, I try to back up any of my my own alleged expereince ,with a published credible source of a recognized Elders saying something about the same principles. But it sometimes does feel to be a fine line....    Which I would be very uncomfortable to cross. And yes I do see some people who seem to make a habit of this.   

[Rattlebone]

Rattlebone

However in an attempt to solidify their claims to being NDN with others they start spouting off words like "elders," and "traditional," etc etc. Thing is who's traditions are they talking about, especially when they admit they were not raised up NDN? Saying the word "elders" isn't much different in my eyes either. Sure everyone can have "elders" in their family regardless if they are NDN or not. Just because you have elders in your family that you can claim taught you right doesn't mean you had elders who were NDN, teaching you the ways and traditions of any tribe/nation.

 To me this is just another form of mimicking or emulating people in order to make false claims seem more real in order to be accepted or to gain whatever the person claiming to make these claims has set out to do.

Unless there was a close blood relationship, I would feel both exploitive and presumptuous to say "My Elders told me." Like whatever Elders were good enough to let me spend some time with them are "mine", when they have simply been generous to let me hang around. If thats what you are saying you find annoying and disrespectful, I also notice people doing that and yeah it does seem exploitive. I hope I never come across like that in anything I share here.

Sometimes I do feel I need to mention seeing something done in a traditional way or an expereince with an Elder , to explain how I see something, which I feel would be helpful to share. Even though anything I know is exceedingly basic I try to stay away from using only personal experiences . If I am trying to share something  on line, I try to back up any of my my own alleged expereince ,with a published credible source of a recognized Elders saying something about the same principles. But it sometimes does feel to be a fine line....    Which I would be very uncomfortable to cross. And yes I do see some people who seem to make a habit of this.   

 For the most part yes that is what I am talking about. However I will concede there are people that are enrolled and maybe even full blooded that do have elders that are not from their own tribe. I have known, and still know people that were born in one area away from their people and have what I commonly hear around here called "teachers" whom are of another tribe. These teachers are for the most part almost always elders.

 In understanding that there events such as relocation programs, adoptions and a host of other things, I will concede that I know people that are often taught by people whom are not from their tribe. I personally have had teachers in my life  that have been from tribes other then my own. I have always been open and honest about that fact, and have pointed it out many times.

 What I do get sick of is people saying words like "elder" and "traditional," and not being able to connect those words with any tribe or community. They just throw  out those words, and since they claim to be from a certain tribe, think that any older or elderly person in their family can count as a "native elder." I find it to be misleading and sometime even exploitative.

 What I would expect from somebody in issues like this is honestly, especially when this subject both online and in the real world  means dealing with others to some capacity. If they are being purposely deceptive on such things to hide what real knowledge and back ground they have, then it throws into question their character and root motive completely in my eyes. Especially when I have seen some do this to mislead others who might be what we have spoken of in this thread and other threads as those who are trying to "reconnect." In cases like this, I often see the victims being women.

 

[Moma_porcupine]

Rattlebone

What I do get sick of is people saying words like "elder" and "traditional," and not being able to connect those words with any tribe or community.

I don't know Rattlebone. I think if the information is really basic, like saying something like "Elders say it is not traditional to charge money to attend a ceremony" it isn't really necessary to name the Elder and tribal affiliation of every Elder who ever said that.

So I guess it depends how you mean this. Generally what feels wrong to me is when people use their association with Elders to make themselves look important. Not when people try and correct all the misinformation on line about what is and isn't a Native tradition - and may need to use the word "traditions" and "Elders" as part of trying to convey this. 

[Rattlebone]

Rattlebone

What I do get sick of is people saying words like "elder" and "traditional," and not being able to connect those words with any tribe or community.

I don't know Rattlebone. I think if the information is really basic, like saying something like "Elders say it is not traditional to charge money to attend a ceremony" it isn't really necessary to name the Elder and tribal affiliation of every Elder who ever said that.

So I guess it depends how you mean this. Generally what feels wrong to me is when people use their association with Elders to make themselves look important. Not when people try and correct all the misinformation on line about what is and isn't a Native tradition - and may need to use the word "traditions" and "Elders" as part of trying to convey this. 

 

I don't know Rattlebone. I think if the information is really basic, like saying something like "Elders say it is not traditional to charge money to attend a ceremony" it isn't really necessary to name the Elder and tribal affiliation of every Elder who ever said that.

 In situations like this I do agree with you. Some things are not tribal specific in regards to things of this nature.

So I guess it depends how you mean this. Generally what feels wrong to me is when people use their association with Elders to make themselves look important

 I guess the best way to explain this in short is for  it to be a PODIA like person to claim having elders or say "their elders taught them this or that" when it is likely they most likely never had native elders to begin with from any tribe or community. They would likely pick up native people speaking of their elders and traditions, and then spout of such words to make it seem is if they have them, or are NDN instead of more of a PODIA person.

[Moma_porcupine]

Yup, I agree. I don't like it when PODIAs or non native people do that either. It does seem deceptive and exploitive, and aimed at making themselves look like something they aren't.

[BlackWolf]

Moma_porcupine said

Although this thread was started in response to people saying people of distant ancestry need support from the tribes that they aren't getting, I notice no one wants to explain what exactly these people aren't getting. Instead all people want to do is complain that it's unfair that the tribes that recognize these questionable people as NDN , aren't recognized as legit themselves.

That’s exactly right Moma_porcupine.  No one is stopping them from learning about the culture of the Tribes they claim (In most cases Cherokee)

Besides $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, I suspect reinforcement of a fake identity is what a lot of these fake tribes are all about. It seems many of them are mutual support clubs for wannabes where people exchange the favor of not asking each other obvious questions about questionable claims.

This is another good point.  They are with other people who make them feel validated.  And I think you were on to something about the need for consuling.  From what I can see, some of these people need severe psychological help.  Especially for people that have been living sometimes 20 or 30 years with a false identity and sense of entitlement.