Federally Recognized Indians, Descendants, Wannabees and Exploiters

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

I'm trying to follow  this .. I think I understand you are saying that if Law says they're a tribe, then they are not fake.  (according to law) but not according to REALITY. 

I mean, be serious, just because some misgoverned law says a person or group is this or that.. they are?  Seriously?  You can't be serious.  I personally know real people who would want the laws to state people not practicing their religion are Heathens and should not be recognized or given rights.  If that 'law' came into effect, you would be sitting here saying that by law, that's what I am, (ok, can follow that, by 'law)  But you say then so that's what "I AM".  Get real.  By law a person may be this or that.. but that in no way determines the "Reality" of who/what they are.

I do not see any one here saying ndn is determined by looks.  But by blood, history, culture. 

Changing the law would be a good thing, but I can't see sitting here and saying that because a law defines someone as such, then 'bingo!' they are.  They aren't.  Regardless of what any 'law' defines them.  Under 'law' they are such, but you seem to go beyond that and say that 'they are' because 'law' states it.  They aren't.  The law is wrong. 

Ok.. I'm getting confused.. 

Your not confused, And the law isn't wrong, it is what it is.

 


Edit:
I'm trying to follow  this .. I think I understand you are saying that if Law says they're a tribe, then they are not fake.  (according to law) but not according to REALITY.



By pointing out what the law is, we can progress to , (perhaps) an agreement of what should be changed. 

Ok..  you say the law isn't wrong, then why are you wanting to change it?  And not about people falling through cracks here.. I'm talking strictly in regards to the LAW defining who is and who isn't a tribe.  The law is wrong if it is defining people as this or that and they are not. 

How can we possibly agree on what should be changed if we cannot even agree that the law is wrong ?

[educatedindian]

Look, I'll give you an example of what I feel is a fake tribe. Here in Fla. there is or perhaps was (their web site is gone now) a group using the Cherokee name. Their web site had a side bar of links such as Home, Chiefs, Tribal land, Housing authority, Tribal Police, enrollment and what ever. When I looked at the page about their Police dept. there were photos of about 6 of them, they had a chief of police and the rest were deputies. 4 of them had the same last name.  Well now I click on the tribal land page and found an address. So now I google map the address and found that their "Tribal Land" was one single house in a typical inter city  neighborhood. A search of the property tax rolls show that the tribal chief (who is also the police chief) was the legal owner not the tribe. Then on the enrollment page I find a statement that said that you don't have to have one drop of NDN blood. Now there was no fee to submit an application but it did say that under their tribal law that there would be from time to time an assessment fee.  So not only do I think that this bunch are fake, but now they are impersonating police officers too.

....(like that new bunch in Ala. that just bought a golf course and want to open a casino)  and like I said before, Altho it's a good place to start,  investigated doesn't mean just a web search. like I did with the "The cherokee national golf and country club tribe"  I would welcome an investigation by their State's Attorney Gen. 

Could you start new threads on these groups, and name them, describing all you found?

[Paul123]

Could you start new threads on these groups, and name them, describing all you found?

There is a thread about the golf course NDNs.
As for the ones impersonating police, Their web site is gone... perhaps they got busted.
I was only pointing these out to show the extremism ism that abounds in this topic.  

[Moma_porcupine]

Paul

@Moma_porcupine, et al
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm debating it.

What you are doing is ignoring every substantive issue that gets pointed out to you , and muddying the water with endless hairspliting of side issues that aren't actually releveant.  You call it debating, I call it intentionally obfiscating what is obvious with a lot of words.

You just did this for the 100th time, when after arguing through several posts that tribes which have State recognition are valid because it is the law, you ignored the evidence that some States don't even follow their own laws, and grant recognition to groups which don't even meet their own definition of a tribe ,  and instead you responded only the personal part of my post that said you were ignoring the actual issues.
   
Then you occaisionally make a disclaimer or do double speak that you don't really necessarialy even believe your own arguements. In the context of all your other actions, this disclaimer seems totally insincere, and my own take on it is, you must know your stance and motivation on these issues is so lacking in integrity, you don't even want to take responsibility for it by admitting your real position.

Paul

The Task Force tosses all of the apples into the Bad apple group and the State recognition process tosses them all into the good apple barrel.

There has to be a middle ground whereby the right thing is done on both sides.

Do you not see that there should be a middle ground?

I do see there is a middle ground when it comes to what sort of individual relationship a descendent has or creates with the tribe they descend from.

I don't see that there should be a "middle ground"  AKA gray area when it comes to the definition of what is a tribe - much as people like yourself wish there was. The definition of what is a tribe / First Nation, needs to be very clear and any group being recognized as a tribe / First Nation should rightly be required to  prove it fits within this definition . Otherwise the perception there might be some monetary rewards ( AKA GREED ) encourages hoards of people like yourself to try and force their way through every small loop hole.

But I am curious what part of the federal definition of "tribe" you think ought to be altered into a middle ground to create a gray area....? And why...? 

[Paul123]

Ok..  you say the law isn't wrong, then why are you wanting to change it?  And not about people falling through cracks here.. I'm talking strictly in regards to the LAW defining who is and who isn't a tribe.  The law is wrong if it is defining people as this or that and they are not. 

How can we possibly agree on what should be changed if we cannot even agree that the law is wrong ?

You have made a fine point here. In this regard you have changed my mind.
(see I'm not inflexible, just hard headed).

The progression of the laws that have led up to what it is at this point are not so black and white. That's why there are so many lawyers.  It is very difficult to pick out any one law that would change the entire picture. It goes back to treaty law, then to Congress giving themselves the authority to legislate the removal of articles in those treaties. Because there is nothing in treaty law preventing States from doing so. From there it progressed to recognizing States authority to grant Tribal recognition. Then in as much as tribes had State Recognition, Congress took it a step further by legislating some benefits for these tribes. That in and of it's self legitimizes these tribes. (in a legal stance).   


I think that the crux of this debate is in how States do what they do. Fixing that may be the thing that needs to be changed.

[Paul123]

You just did this for the 100th time, when after arguing through several posts that tribes which have State recognition are valid because it is the law, you ignored the evidence that some States don't even follow their own laws, and grant recognition to groups which don't even meet their own definition of a tribe ,  

evidence???
Oh you don't mean that just because you gave me your opinion about only one Tribe that this is to be accepted as evidence do you?

Perhaps you should present your evidence about this one Tribe to the 40+ Attorneys General of the States that recognize Tribes within their States. I'm sure they will reverse their positions. Get real, you opinion won't mean any more to them than mine does to you.

Edited to add a reply to this:
"But I am curious what part of the federal definition of "tribe" you think ought to be altered into a middle ground to create a gray area....? And why...?
"

Now why would any one want to change something to create a gray area?
I don't think that this what you mean.
But would defining a Tribe any differently change the sovereignty of that tribe as to who they can enroll? Should the Fed gov. dictate to all tribes what BQ they must accept?

[BlackWolf]

Perhaps you should present your evidence about this one Tribe to the 40+ Attorneys General of the States that recognize Tribes within their States. I'm sure they will reverse their positions. Get real, you opinion won't mean any more to them than mine does to you.

Paul123 your right and we know the reason why for most of them.

And you said it yourself, "Its all about the money honey"

[BlackWolf]

There is a thread about the golf course NDNs.
As for the ones impersonating police, Their web site is gone... perhaps they got busted.
I was only pointing these out to show the extremism ism that abounds in this topic.

That was one of the more offensive groups that misrepresent Cherokees.  But even if these bogus State Recognized Cherokee Tribes did somewhat try to represent authentic Cherokee Culture, ( For example, if some of their members went to Oklahoma and North Carolina, and learned things the right way......that wouldn't change the fact that they ARE STILL BOGUS, meaning they are not Cherokee Tribes, and for the most part, have so called members that ARE NOT of Cherokee Heritage.  Apples are Apples and Oranges are Oranges no matter how you look at it. 

[Paul123]

There is a thread about the golf course NDNs.
As for the ones impersonating police, Their web site is gone... perhaps they got busted.
I was only pointing these out to show the extremism ism that abounds in this topic.

That was one of the more offensive groups that misrepresent Cherokees.  But even if these bogus State Recognized Cherokee Tribes did somewhat try to represent authentic Cherokee Culture, ( For example, if some of their members went to Oklahoma and North Carolina, and learned things the right way......that wouldn't change the fact that they ARE STILL BOGUS, meaning they are not Cherokee Tribes, and for the most part, have so called members that ARE NOT of Cherokee Heritage.  Apples are Apples and Oranges are Oranges no matter how you look at it. 

So is it just the word "Cherokee" that is so bothersome?
What if they changed their name? to something that didn't take the name of another Tribe of course. 
(I know that the won't, but what if)?

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

So is it just the word "Cherokee" that is so bothersome?
What if they changed their name? to something that didn't take the name of another Tribe of course.  
(I know that the won't, but what if)?

What?  LOL  OMG .. sorry..  but even I can see this as stupid.  no offense Paul, but ..  ??  

So.. if I stole parts of traditions from here and there, then made up some name perhaps the Apollo's..  Or maybe the Chrysler's..  and then claimed to be an ndn tribe with all my members..   what??   Even if I gave it a stolen tribal name it would still be BOGUS.  Even if I were able to con the state through loop holes to recognize my 'tribe' it would still be BOGUS...  

OK.. sorry..  ok.. I think you mean if they were learned in the right ways.. and wanted to be a recognized tribe.. sorry.. misunderstood..   

[Rattlebone]

. I'm not defending a Tribe I'm defending the laws.

 Interesting that you would support the law even if it is bad for NDN people.

So should we only support the laws that we like and disregard the rest?

 Segregation used to be a law on the books, but was it right?

 I have already pointed out, that like Blackwolf I support state tribes who are really legitimate tribes and for whatever reason are not federally recognized.

 In fact I have pointed out numerous examples of tribes and bands that fall under those circumstances, including ones in my area.

 However what I see you do is supporting any group of people saying they are NDN and getting recognized as a tribe as long as the state gives them recognition. Then you cite the law is the law, and that makes it valid.

 If money is pointed out, and how these bogus tribes might be getting money earmarked for real NDN's, you point out that tribe A get's X amount of funding, and so that to you makes things okay.

 You fail to look at the bigger picture that this much smaller amount of money could have went to a family just barely eating enough, or hardly at all; even that this could have been broken down and given to a couple families. Heck it could have even been attached to some program for real NDN people that was just barely squeeking through due to budget cuts by the Federal government. I don't know if you realize this this, and you probably don't; NDN programs and funding is nearly always the first thing to get slashed when the state of feds are making budget cuts.

  You fail to realize all of this, and try to say those of us in opposition to it are doing so based on skin color, BQ, or culture. Now I will concede that I have mentioned culture, skin color, and BQ when it was pertinent, but that was not the true basis of my argument. It was just one aspect of it.

 On the contrary you have had conversations with me in which I let you know that I did not believe in such things as the definition of NDN, and so I will not accept that argument from you.

 The argument most here are presenting with you is not about the skin color of somebody, their BQ, or their degree of culture. This is despite it has been pointed out that these fake tribes have NONE of it, and what they do have, you can tell from their websites that they are relying on what is put out by real tribes on their websites.

In fact there are a number of once "state recognized" tribes on the east coast that have members that look almost totally black or white, and have very little of their culture or language retained amongst their people. However, unlike the vast majority of these tribe seeking or gaining state recognition, these once state recognized tribes are in fact known and proven historic tribes. They are not a group of people claiming that their ggggggggg grandmother came from Dragging Canoe's people, and therefore joining up with others with a similar story and thinking they can "form a tribe" based on it.

 I live around and have friends that are members of tribes and bands that are not recognized by the government, or at least totally. One of them is a full blood, and is one of two people left in the world who can speak his language. It insults me that you would try to compare people with very very questionable claims to being NDN to people like that. I for one know all about unrecognized tribes.... I live near more then one.
 

[Paul123]

So is it just the word "Cherokee" that is so bothersome?
What if they changed their name? to something that didn't take the name of another Tribe of course.  
(I know that the won't, but what if)?

What?  LOL  OMG .. sorry..  but even I can see this as stupid.  no offense Paul, but ..  ??  

So.. if I stole parts of traditions from here and there, then made up some name perhaps the Apollo's..  Or maybe the Chrysler's..  and then claimed to be an ndn tribe with all my members..   what??   Even if I gave it a stolen tribal name it would still be BOGUS.  Even if I were able to con the state through loop holes to recognize my 'tribe' it would still be BOGUS...  

OK.. sorry..  ok.. I think you mean if they were learned in the right ways.. and wanted to be a recognized tribe.. sorry.. misunderstood..   

Thanks for reading what I meant, instead of what I said. I should have said that all different. I'm so sorry. 

[Defend the Sacred]

Because it is a perfect example of frauds trying to get state recognition in order to find loop holes in  getting recognized falsely as NDN, and then take the food right out of the bellies of NDN children by leaching off of funding earmarked for NDN people.

Ahhhh haaaa haaaa,,
take the food right out of the bellies of NDN children...
Now that was funny, I love your humor.

 That is exactly what it does.

 I know cases of Lakota women on Pine Ridge with over 5 children getting what amounts to $80 a month from the federal government. This is in an area where there are no jobs.

 I did read your arguement about funding, and felt it was rather pompous of you.

Why should somebody who little to no proof of being NDN get one red cent, when real NDN people are in such dire conditions?

 Are you so self absorbed and heartless in your claim to be seen as NDN, and those like you being seeing as NDN that you would put your "identity" over feeding children?

Paul, if you had the slightest idea of the realities of life in NDN Country, you would now feel full of shame for making such a disgusting display. You would now want to dedicate your pitiful life to making amends for the pain you've just strewn across the Internet. To laugh at the misfortune of women and children living in poverty... I am appalled at your behaviour. You shame your relatives.

It is obvious you have no familial or emotional/relational connection to any NDN community aside from the one that exists in your fantasies. No wonder you like the nons who play dress-up on the weekends, calling themselves "chiefs" and "shamans".

People here initially cut you a lot of slack due to your ignorance. But you have proven to be selfish and obstinate.

People have tried to educate you. They have been patient and kind. You ignore their words and look for loopholes and diversions. You value your own quest for "identity" over the well-being of NDN peoples, NDN communities, NDN cultures. You insult those who try to fight for these things.  You came looking for acceptance, but refuse to see how your words and actions offend the very people you seem to think should welcome you with open arms.

[Paul123]

You don't expect me to believe for one second that there is some poor lady in pine ridge with 5 kids that only gets 80 buck a month it total benefits? Along with it being the fault of some State Tribe that managed to get a crumb of money to help their poor people.
Tell me another one. Any US citizen with 5 kids would qualify for more that 80 bucks a month in food stamps. for that matter even the illegal aliens here get more than that.

I know bull sh!t when I smell it.

If you want to find some one to blame for this poor lady's problem and you refuse to place the blame on her Tribe's piss poor management then blame those illegal aliens.

Tell ya what, 'yall go ahead and give yourselves a big pat on the back for spreading it on so thick.

Now let's see how big of a slime I am for not buying this BS.
Go ahead sock it to me.

 

[LittleOldMan]

Let's take a look at a few facts and stuff.  Fact. All Indians have and continue to get the short end of the stick from the Feds.  Fact.  Poverty is rampant in a lot if not all Indian communities.  Fact.  Poverty is also rampant in a lot of Hispanic, white, and Black communities.  Those of us who care make a difference where we can.  From what I can gleam BQ was historically never much of a factor in the minds of some Indian Tribes.  The Katoowah were organized in a Baptist Church by a White northern minister.  See the history of the Katoowah.  Fact.  There are state tribes that were in existence decades before the current Task force crusade.  Why were the Federal Tribes silent for so long?  Fact. Money must enter into the equation in some form.  Fact.  The Congress has made available to Federal Tribes as well as State Tribes some monies.  Here I am unclear on something If a State Tribes accesses some of this available money does this fact decrease the amount that a Federal Tribe can access? As on a first come first served basis.  Or are funds allocated in some other manner?  Fact.  It is in the best interest of the State that it's recognized Tribes receive Federal monies as it increases monies for it's States citizens.  No matter how much we decry the corruption of culture and ceremony by these wannabes The Federal tribes owe it to themselves to find some accommodation for those people of Indian descent who would like to join them culturally in a good way who for what ever reason can not  qualify for Tribal citizenship.  To do so increases the people on their side to not do so increases the fraudulent, wannabes,  and the exploiters.  The CNO has begun this I believe with it's satellite groups.  Would it not be in the best interest of the Federal Tribes to be in control of these people in order to make sure that their culture remains correct?  With respect offered "LittleOldMan"