Manfred Jobst (aka Wacha Nabi)

[educatedindian]

i know no accident here in germany,
maybe we are here a bit more carefully?

you are invited.  smile

Just because you don't know of them does not mean they don't happen. There are many instances of Germans involved in dangerous versions of sweatlodges.

The so called Deer Tribe run by Harley Reagan does quite a lot of harm, and there are many chapters in Germany. The Deer Tribe has injured their members in badly run sweatlodges before. They also sexually abuse their members and pretend it's a ceremony.

If you search our site you will find that there is a German or Dutch woman who is trying to make money off the deaths of people in sweatlodges in Sedona.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2380.msg20093#msg20093

There is another German who came to our site and said he knew people were injured in badly done sweatlodges, but he didn't care and was going to do them anyway. He was even going to keep teaching people how to do sweats by themselves, which is incredibly dangerous.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=796.0

And there is even a German who does sweatlodges with small children, even babies.
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2369.msg19218#msg19218

[Freija]

and yes i know taht some spirituell leaders don`t want to share. they have their reasons. thats ok for me.
but there are many who understand that we europeans need their help to learn.

i was trained in a blackfoot tradition. and a blackfootmedicinman (a elder) allowed me to do run sweat lodges.
i do this in my way.

ho

wacha nabi
 

Just like you I´m European. 
I don´t feel the need to repeat what Natives in here have already said about Nons running Native ceremonies.
They say it so much better than I could.


What bothers me, and saddens me actually, is that you say that we Europeans need help to learn because we have lost so much. So why do you ask a Native American to teach you – a completely different culture – instead of being proud of who YOU are, what your ancestors fought for and the traces they left behind. What we had is NOT gone.  There are sacred places all over, places we could visit to connect to our roots.

The way I see it is that the more you incorporate another tradition in your life, the further away you will get from who you are. And from the kind of spirituality that can make you stronger. Most Native Americans will tell you how important it is to connect to our roots, our past and our ancestors.

Obviously you think they are wrong?

[Renee]

So why do you ask a Native American to teach you – a completely different culture – ---

maybe because his grandfather is a Chickasaw.
maybe he want to learn more about his culture---

[Moma_porcupine]

wacha nabi
reply #7

and yes i know taht some spirituell leaders don`t want to share.

When you are talking about using something that is deeply important to someone else, in a way that damages and distorts the meaning of this for the person or people it is important to, describing this as "some people don't want to share" seems to be an overly nice way of describing what you are doing.

I understand it's confusing when some Native people say it's OK to charge a bit of money to cover costs, and it's OK for non native people to lead traditional ceremonies.

But the fact remains most Spiritual leaders within Native communities are very strongly opposed to any commercialization of traditional ways of prayer. Even if people mean well, and this can sometimes be justified as a way of covering costs, once this is done , it is way too easy for the profit motive to begin to influence how and why things are done.

Also, from what I have heard most Spiritual leaders within Native communities are strongly opposed to non native people leading indigenous ceremonies or performing sensitive key roles in these ceremonies. As I understand it, this isn't because these knowledgeable people "don't want to share", but because it takes an entire deeply rooted community to insure these ways are maintained properly and that the people involved get the many sided balanced life long support they will need.

When a few native people say something is Ok but so many other Native people say it isn't, to make an analogy, it is kind of like if you wanted to use someones wedding pictures as a part of a movie you were making, and the husband said it was OK and the wife said NO it is not OK. Even though the husband said it is OK , it seems to me the right thing to do would be to listen to the wife who says no.           

In the case of something that is needed by a whole community this principle is very important because if there is 100 people you can always find one person who will say yes to whatever is being asked. If one persons yes is all it takes, no community would have control over any of it's resources. I bet there would be a few Germans who would say yes to allowing the park lands in Germany to be logged and the wood sold to China. So if all it takes is a few people who say yes and it's OK to ignore the people saying NO Germany would have no protected ares like parks. That is why it's important to listen to the representives of the entire community not just a few people.

And it sounds like the Native people in Southren Alberta say NO to advertising and charging for ceremonies or removing these ceremonies from being a part of of the whole experience of living in a Native community.

I think ? this first quote is from the same website that featured the article on Devalon Small Legs.

http://www.buffalospirit.org/honoring-relationships/advice-from-the-powwow-trial

 

Many times I have seen individuals "showing off" their sundance scars, tobacco ties or amulets hanging around their necks - exposed. When a person carries protection and/or medicine, it should always be hidden and never be spoken about.

Spiritual leaders and medicine men should be considered in the same light. For the true and sincere, their reverence is based on humbleness, dedication and sacrifice. Anytime someone stands before you and claims to be a medicine man, do not believe him or anything he says, because he or she has desecrated their oath of humbleness. You will not find a true and sincere spiritual leader or medicine man teaching in a school or university, or seeking public attention.

It was said in the beginning that the Creator gave a certain uniqueness, power and protector of a certain medicine to each nation and tribe. Certain individuals, clans and societies were gifted with this special knowledge and, most importantly, given the right to use the medicine.

Be careful of false leaders and pseudo-medicine men that charge money for their services, especially of those that take money before the ceremony even starts. To all faiths throughout the world, including those that are Native, consider money as the 'root of all evil.'

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.multilingual-matters.net/jost/012/0029/jost0120029.pdf

For example, the question of the appropriateness of including tourists in sweat lodge ceremonies remains a contentious issue in many circles. Grossly oversimplified, a ‘sweat’ constitutes spiritual as well as physical cleansing, but its religious significance, spirituality and social aspects vary widely from tribe to tribe, from community to community and from spiritual practitioner to practitioner.

In 1998 this author was invited to a gathering of aboriginal Elders and
tourism representatives from Alberta which was convened at the Nakoda Lodge on the Stoney Reserve to discuss this very issue. The message received from the Elders was unequivocal: aboriginal spirituality is not for sale, and there is no place for spiritual ceremonies in tourism products.

My bold

[earthw7]

who is Chickasaw? if it is this man wacha nabi why is he doing thing the Blackfoot way?
Seem really strange to me. Is he enrolled and who is he related to? That is the question
we ask all native people.

We do not charge for wood, rocks ect.... and never the lodge.
If you don't have these things maybe you should be doing these things
There are reason why people are not to do these things it takes a life time
to learn.

[earthw7]

Thank you mama, for those words, as a native person I find that these kind of people
like wacha nabi are abuser because they think they know more than the creator then
they make decision to hurt people. native people do not use plastic as it was said if the
lodge don't breath it is not a lodge. Why do these people keep abuse cultures? I never
understand these people it is like they have no heart. they steal everything that is good
and make it evil like charging money. If you don't have the supplies don't do the ceremony
Duh!

Wacha you do not have the Nations approval you don't have the right one man can't give
you the right.

[Defend the Sacred]

especelly the amercin native have been very clever.
they used evrything.

Manfred, you speak of Native Americans as if they only exist in the past. This is wrong. Native people are still with us, and they are reading your words and talking to you here on this forum. I hope you are listening.

You met one man who told you what you wanted to hear. He does not speak for anyone but himself.

You have finally gotten the attention of some traditional Native people, from the living communities that maintain these ceremonies and live this way of life. You are perhaps for the first time in the (virtual) presence of those who are the true descendants of those ancestors you think you are honoring. I realize that what they have to say is different from the fantasies you have learned. I hope you can hear their words.

[wacha nabi]

i hear it very well,

i hear and feel here fear, ego`s are speaking. and so on. not from all

not one man gave me the right to run ceremonies. the grandfathers gave it to me.

one question? how many of you speaks with the grandfathers?
listen to them. what does they tell you about this?


best wishes to all of you

wacha nabi

[wacha nabi]

my grandfather was chickasaw,
i`m not enrolled.
i have never been in america.
i never saw my grandfather.

if this is importent to you, ok.
but not for me and my work.
it comes from the grandfathers.

and in germany we have to pay for wood, the place,...

[wacha nabi]

please ask the grandfathers before you judge me and what i do.
you don`t know much about me.

and i don`know about you all.
but i would`t say that you have to stop what you are doing, it`s not good.

[NDN_Outlaw]

I wonder what the people in Brocket, Stand Off and Moses Lake think of Small Leg's adventures over seas. Perhaps if Wacha Nabi knew the Bloods and Piegan people better and understood their history he would respect these people more by putting away his new found NDN spirituality. Generations of good people have suffered to hold on to their spirituality. I would like to see a dialogue between Small Legs and his own people on this board. Small Legs no longer sees Chief Mountain.

[wacha nabi]

i have to say that devalon was not my only teacher.
and i have my own style of spirtuell work.
from my teachers i got the basics but i had to learn walk on my own.
find my way to help others.

let me say, i have many respect for the blackfoot nation and all other nations.
what i do ist not blackfoot style or chickasaw or others.
its my own. 

so now call me fraud please !!!

i had many years to learn, not even a weekend.
i talk to the spirits and i get answers.

call me fraud !!!

i have respect for the creator and mother earth.
i have respect for all souls.
i teach this respect to others.

so call me fraud !!!

i believe people has to work together if they want to survive.
i think spirituell things comes from the spirits, not from people.

call me fraud please !!!

if i hurt anyone in his opion and feeling for his culture, please excuse.
but its to important to stop.

call me fraud !!!

yes i take money for my help from people who has money.
germany is expensive and i have to live.
but evryone can come and get help, also without money if he has none.

one more reason to call me fraud !!!

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

i hear it very well,

i hear and feel here fear, ego`s are speaking. and so on. not from all

not one man gave me the right to run ceremonies. the grandfathers gave it to me.

one question? how many of you speaks with the grandfathers?
listen to them. what does they tell you about this?


best wishes to all of you

wacha nabi

At one time early in my life, very early..  I was given vision and told of a promise of a future.  That future came to pass, and what I was told was real, but also very false.  I had lived my entire life based on that.  Seriously, my Life.  I stayed alive for it.  I lived every day for it.  And it was false.  

How this left me and everything I've gone through to have come out this side, and be where I am now..  is too long a story to tell here.  But I can say without any doubt whatsoever, that it is not enough for what grandfathers or any of any has to say.  

I learned the hardest way there is, and I can tell you it doesn't matter what you perceive as being grandfathers, or what it is you perceive they have said.  

The only thing that matters is the world you are finding yourself within and what you do there.  Not from self.. from what you want it to be, or what you wish to believe..

Belief is as fleeting as life..  It comes and goes with.. and as..  birth and death.

So, what you are believing in regards to who you perceive as grandfathers, and what you perceive of them relaying to you.. is what you believe..  but it doesn't make it truth, and could very well be false.

I have learned in the hardest way, that the vision, or message relayed is best not to be interpreted by the one receiving.  The self is in the way there.  

To me, to ask what the grandfathers say, is asking me to ask what is the opinions of who knows... and how many...   One may say this, another may say that.  It still leaves all in the same situation.  The decisions of what we do must come from ourselves.  It is we who are alive now. Therefore, what we choose is on us, not on ancestors.

You decide on what to do here.  It is on you, and only you.  People on this board have given you their views, explained what their tradition is in these matters.  If you decide to ignore the voices of the traditions you are using..  that is on you, and you alone.  To lift it up to say the 'grandfathers' said so, or told you so..  that is not real.  There is no ancestor or spirit or whatever that is going to tell you to do this or that.  The action of your life, is yours, and yours alone.

Having said this, and pretty much thinking that you will continue in your way, I can only then ask that you please punch a lot of holes in that plastic you are using.  Thank you.

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

let me say, i have many respect for the blackfoot nation and all other nations.
what i do ist not blackfoot style or chickasaw or others.
its my own.  

i believe people has to work together if they want to survive.
i think spirituell things comes from the spirits, not from people.

if i hurt anyone in his opion and feeling for his culture, please excuse.
but its to important to stop.

First, I am not NA and I apologize to any if I am stepping on toes or anything, but I have my own opinions on these matters .. and am going to say it ..

The sweat lodge is not your own.  You are not working together with people if you are creating disharmony by confiscating a tradition that is not yours to run.  Running the lodge and any other traditional ceremony that you have not been given in traditional way the rights to run, is not too important to continue.  It isn't.  The world will not end if you stop.  

I help many people too.  But I have my own way.  And it doesn't involve NA traditions.  And I know it's only important in my own mind.  If Spirit deemed my life over, then another will step into place.  I am not so important, and neither is my work here.  Not so important to be irreplaceable. And certainly not important enough to confiscate ritual from others.  They are the holders of that, not I.  I have my own things, and I work with what I'm given, I do not take it from others, or take and change to my own thought of it.

I'm not writing this to convince you of otherwise, I'm writing this to give you a view point. I've met too many people who get too .. how should say..  self involved in/with spirits.  Sometimes, the spirits are wrong.  There are no beings in creation that are infallible.. but for Creator.. and Creator Spirit if given you a gift ..  then use that, and not the gifts that have been given to others.  I don't think you see this.  But I could be wrong.

*edit..  I came back to add that what I've been given, I do not teach to others.  I protect it.  It's not mine to give.  And with that, I can very well relate to how any people, such as NA's, strive to protect what they were given.  It's a matter of not just respect, but honor.  I wouldn't sell it, and I would be angry if someone abused or misused it.  To me, I feel fortunate in that I am unable to teach.  It lessens the chance of someone confiscating and imitating.  A person has to not just respect what is given to their self and to others, but honor it as well, honor the place to which it is held and the people who hold it. 

[wacha nabi]

you say it right evrybody has to make it on his own. but with help of the grandfathers.
what you do is your thing. they only help you.