Mr Jobst has started quite an interesting discussion in a German language esoteric forum in which he whines about having been treated inappropriately by members of NAFPS, although he didn't listen to advice given by ndn members here and instead was quite rude.
Below, I translated a part of the posts in that thread. I apologize for the continuous lack of respect and rudeness expressed by posters in that forum – they only respect their own wishes, and plastics and sellouts who confirm these wishes. What they don't like gets comfortably brushed off with comments like „the Lakota aren't all shamans“, that ndn nations/ persons hold different views re allowing Euros to native ceremonies, and that one doesn't need to be liked by all ndns, just by the spirits.
Jobst uses the nick of „thunderbird“ in this forum.
http://www.esoterikforum.de/schamanismus/36601-fraud-betrueger-scharlatan.htmlThread: FRAUD / conman / charlatan
„23/12/2009, 09:02
User: Thunderbird
age: 40
posts: 419
Hello my dears,
once again a new old topic.
In the USA, there are tendencies of natives (Indians) and also white persons who believe that ceremonies like the sweatlodge and other things belong to these tribal cultures and may not be passed on to white persons.
Natives passing them on, i.e. teaching, are seen as a fraud there.
White persons working with this and selling this are also a fraud.
There is a forum there warning against such frauds.
They are looking in the internet for websites e.g. selling sweatlodges. This will be checked in that forum and one is added to this negative list or not.
There are also stooges in Germany who report peculiarities back to America.
So don't be surprised when – if you run a website – you perhaps read something negative about you on the internet.
23/12/2009, 09:36
user: FayInanna
Hi Wacha Nabi,
I know what set them off in your case.
There is an article somewhere on your site which describes a sweatlodge which is covered with plastic tarps, with the comment this was traditional.
This is what set off the abettors from the German speaking forum now – they pass on this info to the Nafps site.
Don't let it bother you, they're just bonkers. However, I also think sweatlodges covered with plastic tarps are dangerous.
Greetz,
Nana
23/12/2009, 11:47
user: Animalspirit
Hi Wacha Nabi!
I don't know what was the cause, but I assume your issue points at the Declaration of War of the Lakota. It says there that the seven sacred rituals may only be practiced by Indians or tribal members and not by Wannabees (plastic Indians or shamans). And I think this is okay, after all if one is interested in such a ritual, one can turn to the Lakota directly, or to one of their representatives, or simply think about what may have a similar or the same effect and to get this effect with means from one's own country.
BTW I also have to add that I believe it is not only dangerous but also expresses a lack of respect to build a sweatlodge with a plastic tarp.
In criticism by others we may also find things we should take with us on our path and often something will annoy us because it wants to be worked out in us or was mirrored for us...
I think a sweatlodge and a sauna are certainly not the same, but a sauna can be an alternative when one is interested in a modification of the sweatlodge and does not have money and time, or does not see a necessity to fly to the Lakotas. I respect the wish of the Lakota and gladly help them to keep their rituals sacred by not practicing them.
However, this concerns the issue of spirituality or cultural theft [added link to
http://www.esoterikforum.de/schamanismus/34223-kulturraub.html ] and I would like to repeat the wonderful words of another forum member:
[quote = Snake] I mentioned before that one must differentiate between technique and culture.
We can be taught the technique, we got culture of our own.Especially here in Germany and Europe we have got deep spiritual roots we can claim. Shamanic knowledge is even hidden in christianity, one just has to take a look.
I recommend to go back to one's own roots.[/quote]
On my site, I only give information about the rituals, which is okay, but I don't practice them and also do not participate in them with non-Indians – as wonderful as these rituals may be. This is my contribution which I gladly give. If it is meant to be, there will be a way, be it in everyday reality or a non-everyday reality.
If that thread has in fact been started for the reason mentioned by FayInanna, you know my opinion on this, and besides, if someone has something against you, there are still other ways and means to block your path. It is important not to give up when you found your path (but this does not mean one stubbornly avoids all criticism), and what do they say so aptly: envy is the highest form of appreciation!
Believe me, there will always be people who like to stir things up and keep themselves busy with this for their lifetime – there are all kinds. Take them as they are or ignore them.
Mitakuye Oyasin,
Animalspirit
23/12/2009, 11:58
user: Thunderbird
Of course one must be careful when working with tarps. It is important not to cover the door, too.
I have slept in a hut covered like that after the sweatlodge.
The ground breathes, the door will let in air. Has been tried and tested since long and also gets checked whether everything's alright. It's just that it rains a lot here and blankets will get soaked.
I put up fotos at my site which show one covered by a tarp. I never claimed this was traditional.
On the other hand I dare to bet that natives wouldn't have done it differently in earlier times if they had tarps.
Especially the tribes in the old days were very resourceful and used everything they could lay their hands on. Which is correct. But they were perfect in integrating things.
23/12/2009, 13:51
user: Thunderbird
I mainly wanted to say that those persons maintaining a website and selling something shamanic there will sooner or later be added to this bad, bad list.
What I think about „cultural theft“ I have made clear in that thread.
23/12/2009, 14:15
user: Animalspirit
Hi Wacha Nabi!
Oh, I understand … nothing any longer … I think Kondor's site got listed by New Age Frauds and Plastic Shamans (NAFPS) a short time ago, because of his condor dance.
Provided it's that group of people you mean.
Cf Declaration of War ... and Interview (in Englisch) ...
[translator's note: link to the site of Hey... magazine]
There was a site that used to go by the name of Wall of Shame but it doesn't exist any longer. But Hanksville is still around.
And here's the current denunciation site and the List of 2005 ...
I mean, your registration with that forum [translator's note: i.e. NAFPS] seems to have been a shot in your own foot, Wacha Nabi, don't you agree?
Although you say on the one hand it is okay for you to get labeled there, only to deny this later....
Here is the current Deathlist...
shocked greetings,
Animalspirit
23.12.2009, 14:54
user: Sharii
Hallo Wacha Nabi!
On the other hand I dare to bet that natives wouldn't have done it differently in earlier times if they had tarps.
Especially the tribes in the old days were very resourceful and used everything they could lay their hands on. Which is correct. But they were perfect in integrating things.
Exactly!!! Interestingly, our TV even shows reports like the one about a few young natives at their first powwow trail who were accompanied by a camera. And they showed this old medicine chief who does a sweat ceremony on his own. No, the camera and its operator were not inside with him. But there was a huge tarp on the lodge (ugh! Eek!) and the man didn't make any fuss at all!!! He just lifted his feathered fan in greeting and went into the lodge. Now really! That doesn't go at all! He should stick to his traditions!
Things are never as bad as they seem. People who prefer to have a look at other plates instead of eating what's on theirs can be found everywhere... You don't have to be friends will ALL natives to be accepted by the spirits!
23/12/2009, 15:04
user: Animalspirit
Hi!
Wacha Nabi certainly didn't do everything wrong as these FRAUD fanatics say, but since it caused such a commotion in the forum and in him, we should think about what one can do to keep things „authentic“. I don't assume such commotion will be done about nothing. Something must be to it. Okay, it is wrong to over-simplify, but not to differentiate! I just had an intense look at your homepage, Wacha Nabi, and I think it questionable to go multi-pronged. One cannot unite shamanism and Reiki (there is no shamanic Reiki! Shamanism is no Reiki method or magic...!!! - these are two different ways of life and philosophies! Otherwise it is just an eso hodgepodge for me, and this makes the FRAUDS fanatics (?) simply right and I can understand them and agree to them.
Shamanism and Reiki is likewise absurd as shamanism and angels... or Turkish fried sausages...
But sometimes one has to gather experience first to realize that one cannot walk several spiritual paths at the same time and that shamanism is no disguise for miscellaneous incompatible practices.
No offence, just my opinion.
Greetz,
Animalspirit
23/12/2009, 15:15
user: Rotmilan [i.e. Red kite]
AUTHENTIC – is everything which I back from deep conviction and with all my soul.
Especially shamanic work is extremely individual.
I cannot do anything with plastics, with the wanabis, those from whom you see much „want to“ but very little ability, those who indiscriminately gather and use, partly because it fits nicely into the Esoteric business.
THAT is what I reject, I denounce this and I will act and speak against it even more intensely in future.
I have met lots of people whose way of practicing I cannot share, but who do this out of conviction and whose path I fully respect and appreciate. They are authentic.
We live in modern times and I, for one, use everything I can get. Going into nature fully from time to time (if this is still possible today) helps not to lose connection to the traditions and to earth. To shut off modern times means to close one's eyes to reality, to the spirits of our time and the problems of our time.
I daresay that you, Wacha Nabi, do the sweatlodge ceremony more authentic as perhaps Lakota who don't really have a connection to their own culture. Surprise: even Lakota aren't ALL shamans rooted deeply in their culture.
Just stand above the internal dispute of the natives which is carried to the outside this way, stay with yourself and in yourself and those who are able to see will realize. The others.... well, so be it.
23/12/2009, 15:31
user: Thunderbird
[…]
Quite frankly, I purposely got into this business in that fraud-forum because I believe the ceremonies come from the spirits and no person has intellectual property rights. Everything has just to be done with the proper respect.
I also don't say my sweatlodges are originally Blackfoot, but in the style of.
Of course it is important to hear other people's opinion. Am not infallible.
23/12/2009, 17:37
user: Rotmilan
Hey,
I don't read your posts as being AGAINST me or us...
That's all okay the way it is. Sometimes, a tempest just has to come and one should stand to it, or even kindle it, because a tempest can have a cleansing effect.
I don't shy away from fire or storm nor abyss, if something is really important to me and if it is really meaningful.
Concerning respect. There is respect of tradition by continuing it. To simply take something of course shows no respect. But this is about traditions which were even released by groups of Natives. They happen to be at strife.“
