Manfred Jobst (aka Wacha Nabi)

[wacha nabi]

yes i think so.

especelly the amercin native have been very clever.
they used evrything.

[Renee]

yes i think so.

especelly the amercin native have been very clever.
they used evrything.

i would never go in a plastic sweat...
a lot of people died in plastic sweats...done by plastic shame ons
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2380.0

i ask now the members here: "would you go in a plastic sweat"

[wacha nabi]

i know no accident here in germany,
maybe we are here a bit more carefully?

you are invited.  smile

[Renee]

i know no accident here in germany,
maybe we are here a bit more carefully?

you are invited.  smile

i am ivited, thank you very much
but before i come, i make my "testament"
the german word:"Testament"

[wacha nabi]

why are so scared?

they came all healthy out of the swaet lodge.

[Renee]

here in germany we almost lost our spirituel roots.

 deleted

[Renee]

why are so scared?

they came all healthy out of the swaet lodge.

i am not scared
ich hab keine angst.

[wacha nabi]

no if never been in amercia.
i never said this.
and if you would read carefully, i worte that i never have meet my grandfahther.

we is we all europeans, the church took us all spirituell.

how do you want to know that i only had some weekendseminars?

you don`t know much about me an you start to judge.
is this the right way?
that is the funny thing.


and if somebody calls me shaman, why not?
its not on my homepage, please resach a bit better.

and now?

[Renee]

you don`t know much about me an you start to judge.
is this the right way?
that is the funny thing.

you are right, i judge
to judge about sombody is not the right way..

[Renee]

okay, i deleted my judging statement above.
however i have said what i wanted.
and i have nothing more to say.

you are selling visionquest and sweatlodge and more...in germany and you say it is okay for you.
when it is okay for you to sell in germany sacred ceremonies then do it.

[wacha nabi]

it has to be ok for the spirits and the people who comes.
not for you or me.

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

yes i think so.

especelly the amercin native have been very clever.
they used evrything.

i would never go in a plastic sweat...
a lot of people died in plastic sweats...done by plastic shame ons
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2380.0

i ask now the members here: "would you go in a plastic sweat"

No.  If I knew there was plastic lining on a 'sweat lodge' I wouldn't go in.  Not because of fear. Although death is probably likely with that.  Here it is, even if I had never ever done a sweat and never knew or heard of ndn culture or whatnot, I would not go into a dome structure covered with plastic and have a hot steam in there.  

Mr. Wacha.. You state  "the amercin native have been very clever. they used evrything."

I don't know how you would know this, or why this would even be said.  I don't know if they did or didn't.  I"m not NA, so I don't know.  But seems a rather .. I dunno..  thing to say.. ?

For me, I use everything in my life for my own spiritual beliefs.  When I say that, I am speaking of Life.  (I don't run sweats, so this is totally hypothetical) If I were to run a sweat and had only plastic, then I would not run one, and use the experience of NOT running one..

I wouldn't go into a lodge with plastic. Not for fear of death, but because what I have experienced of life .. Plastic is dead.  Why would I want something dead and of no life in my ceremony (if I were to have one again, I don't )

To me, what I understand, and what are my reasons most likely are not the Native American reasons, or understanding..  I do not know what they reason or understand.  I can only speak of my own standing in life, and of my own experience.  I wouldn't put something 'dead' and of no natural affiliation with/of LIFE in ceremony.

Take the plastic off the lodge and find something else, and if nothing else can be found.. then go without.  It's not the end of the world to not be able to do sweat lodge.  Spirit has other ways.  If this is not a way given and trained to you and done in right accordance of Native Tradition, then don't do it.  There will be another way for you.  Find that.

"IT"  isn't about having sweats..  

[Superdog]

hello together,
i try it in english again.
you asked me about the charge for the sweat lodges.
i speak for mine sl. first please tink about the costs we have here in germany.
we have to buy the wood, sometimes even the stones, pay for the place, for the food we serve at the end.
normaly the charge is 50.- Euro. if somebody have not much money and i know this, he don`t hast to pay anything.
sometimes i get some appels or a handmade picture. thats all ok. i don`t want to get rich.
i only want to follow my way the spirits gave to me. and no one will send away if he has no money!!!

and yes i know taht some spirituell leaders don`t want to share. they have their reasons. thats ok for me.
but there are many who understand that we europeans need their help to learn.
sure there a many "frauds" wich only wants to make money.
but here are also a few people who works with respect.

i was trained in a blackfoot tradition. and a blackfootmedicinman (a elder) allowed me to do run sweat lodges.
i do this in my way.

ho

wacha nabi
 

Hello and welcome.  You're English is fine, no need to apologize. 

As far as wanting to learn about spirituality.  I have something you might want to consider.

When running sweat lodges or other types of events one thing  you must consider is that you have not gained any permission from a Blackfoot community to do what you do.  Just because one man who claimed to be medicine man told you it was ok doesn't mean that it's truly ok.  You're not a member of any Blackfoot community and you truly have no idea how these things are run amongst Blackfoot people.  You only have the impression of one man...not an entire community.  The claim that you have permission seems to give the impression that it's ok with Blackfoot people for you to take something that's theirs, something that you're just learning about, and TEACHING about it.  If you really wanted to have that, then you must humble yourself before the community you're claiming to represent and ask the permission of ALL of them.  One man does NOT have the right to let you represent all his people.

The reality is this person WOULD NOT do and say the things he's said to you in front of his community and no matter how much you like him or how sincere you think he is, the fact that he's doin' something that's NOT ACCEPTED in his community and he's letting you think that it's perfectly alright let's me know that there's some lying going on there.  He's telling you what you want to hear and you're buying it. 

My suggestion would be to stop practicing something you're just barely learning about...stop attempting to teach it and visit where you're teacher says he comes from.  It takes a lifetime to become a person that can lead these types of things and if you're gonna use the Blackfoot name in order to promote it, then you MUST gain their (not his) permission. 

You'll find that things are done much differently there and you would learn why there is never a charge.  The idea that the expenses of running a ceremony should fall upon the attendees is false.  This burden is carried by many people involved and the person running it would normally take a lot of that work upon themselves.  Being a spiritual leader means being a servant to your community.  If things can't come together for you to have these things more naturally without a price tag...then I'd take it as a sign that it wasn't meant to be.

Life's a journey and making mistakes is part of learning and I hope you take my words with an open heart and realize that you've been lied to.  At the very least, some things that are very important to your endeavors have not been told to you and that's the same thing as lying.  Never ever ever pay to pray and never require a price from others in order to pray with you. 

Superdog

[Superdog]

because i have no plastic allergy or fear about.

i allready sleeped in the logde after a sweat and i`m still alive.

in former day they native would have used ist also if they had things like that.

here in germany rains very often, so it`s a good solutin i think.

You're belief here is false.  A sweat lodge HAS to breathe.  Plastic prevents that....it is in fact very dangerous to use plastic and if you've followed some of the news here in the US you'd learn that 3 people recently died tragically by being involved in a sweatlodge built with plastic tarps and run for non-Indians by non-Indians.  It's a terrible solution...just because you've been ok previously doesn't mean it isn't dangerous.  In the 3 deaths that occurred in Arizona, the vast majority of the people involved ended up ok....but it was still a very dangerous situation and the fact that those people are ok doesn't make it any better for the 3 people that lost their lives.

You truly have a LOT to learn and you're in no position to be teaching ANY of this just based on the things you've written here.  If you want to learn about Blackfoot traditions....Go to a Blackfoot community and humble yourself and LEARN....

Take yourself outside your situation for a moment and consider this hypothetical......let's say I liked the yearly festival of one German village.  This festival is part of the village there and they've been doing it for hundreds of years and it's only done in that village.  Let's say the festival is also done every year as a measure of good luck for the people there...they truly believe that they must conduct this festival in order to preserve the good fortunes they've had in life.  I've watched it on video, read about it and thought it was the best thing in the world.  I liked it so much that I wanted to run the same festival here in the US.  So one day I run across someone from that village with the festival I love and they agree to teach me.  I just have to give them a place to live, feed them and pay their expenses (not big money...just enough) and they teach me about what elements are involved with that festival.  That same year I put on my festival and I claim that it's a true German festival and that I've been given permission by this one person who came from the village so that makes it a complete German experience.....EVEN THOUGH the festival I put on is all in English, the costumes are bought from a costume store, the food is all bought in American grocery stores etc etc.

Would Germans, or more specifically the people from the village that originated my festival, have a problem with me claiming that it's a German festival (considering I'm not German and none of the participants are German and none of it uses German language).  What if I also charged admission to my festival (where the festival is free and put on the by the village it comes from) and sold tickets claiming that "It's like going to Germany!!"

I'd think that if I ran into any Germans...or even German-Americans and tried to sell them my tickets, they'd crack up laughing at me....

So to stop them from laughing I say "The tickets are very cheap....we don't make any money off of it we just like this festival...."

I'd imagine them saying "This is nothing like what's done in Germany and you shouldn't claim that it is..."


This whole little situation...if you can imagine it, is exactly how you're looked at by individuals over here.  Plastic is DANGEROUS and you OBVIOUSLY don't know what you're doing.  The things you don't know you fill in with your own imagination (in your own words) and again...that just shows you shouldn't be in the position of teaching any of it.  Open your heart and your mind to that. 

Superdog

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

here in germany we almost lost our spirituel roots.

I have to speak to this.  Because I have no spiritual roots.  My family did not have any spiritual/religious traditions or beliefs.  Oh, sure, my mom's dad apparently he was Lutheran or something, my mom didn't believe in that. My dad's side, I have no idea if they had any religion/spiritual thoughts or beliefs.

Point is, my parents raised us without spiritual beliefs of any kind.  

My belief is that for every heart that beats, there is a way/path to Spirit.  There is no need to appropriate another's way.  Find your own.  It might take you 50+ plus years to do so. But that's what it is.  There are no short cuts.

The simple fact that what you are doing is upsetting to the people who's way you are confiscating is enough to say it is wrong to do it.  These ways were given to these people.  They are the only ones who know how it is done, and are the only people who can give permission for a person to do.  

When I was 20 years younger, I had difficulty in 'understanding' the 'idea' of 'stolen' spiritual ways.  I understand something different now.  

There is plenty of Spirit to go around for all, what is given to one people is their way .. it is sacred in that.  In that it was given to them.. they are the holders of such way.  Respect that.  Without communal consent to you, or permission, you are stealing.

People seem to not recognize and respect a block on the path.  What I mean is, ok, so you walking along, and come across a block.. in this case, the block is that the spiritual way you wish to use is not yours, not given to you to use.  Instead of respecting that and moving on, they use it anyway.  Blocks are put on the path for reason.  

Let's say you walking and come to a 20 foot hedge.  Instead of finding another way through to where you are wanting to be, you just cut down the hedge.  You think you are there now, you're not.  You may be arrived to the other side of the hedge, but you are not there. Turn around and look at how you arrived. Behind you is destruction of the very thing you were seeking.  You tore it down to get to where you wanted to be.  It is selfish.  And of no respect.  People want want want.. but never take the path to it.. they mow it down in their false feeling of needing 'now'.  

Find another way.  Recognize and respect the blocks in your path and walk accordingly.