Manfred Jobst (aka Wacha Nabi)

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Not Always.   I am not one who relies on them.  If they choose to, great, if not, also great.  It took me a long time to respect that they can come as well as leave.  They are not obligated.  Some can use you in the same way a person can... and then up and leave when they've gotten what they wanted or needed. 

If a person is 'in service' they are no longer alive for their self.  And nothing in life is about them, or about what they believe, or want, or think.   

But the topic of this thread is in regards to you operating ceremony that is taken from another culture and tradition.  I am of the view that it is not yours to use.  Honor what was given to another, and Find a different way for your self.

[wacha nabi]

this way found me.  what should i do?

its the way i have to go.

[Superdog]

i have to say that devalon was not my only teacher.

let me say, i have many respect for the blackfoot nation and all other nations.
what i do ist not blackfoot style or chickasaw or others.
its my own. 

Disregarding the ranting "call me a fraud" part I gotta say if this is true you don't give that impression at all on your commercial spirituality website.

Several times on there you give kudos to Devalon as your teacher and several times you mention that the sweat lodge you conduct is Blackfoot style.

That's where the issue is.  If you're doing something completely different, then you fail to give that impression with the wording you use and with the graphic detail including drawings of a sweat lodge, detailed instructions on what each round is a about, how to conduct it, etc etc...all of which you attribute to Devalon and also flat out call "Blackfoot style".

Your own words call issue to what you're saying.  Not mine or anyone elses here and as I stated, you might wanna take a step back from yourself and look at what you're doing from someone else's shoes.  You might also want to realize that you're talking to Natives here...we are people brought up in our cultures and we are not for sale no matter how you justify it...and we are also extremely diverse in the languages and cultures from one end of North America to the other and certainly not to be lumped incorrectly in one catch-all self made guru's commercial self help website.  What you perceive as helping others actually causes a lot of damage to the people you're claiming to honor.  There's a balance in everything and you're taking from one group so that you can help others...along the way misguiding those you would help with your own misguided vision and in the end making yourself and others more lost then you left them. 

I'll say it one more time.....you have A LOT to learn.

Superdog

[wacha nabi]

dear superdog,

we bove have much to learn.

you see what ist done to your culture. thats realy a pitty.

and i see what gift the spirits gave me to help others.

how get togehter?

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

this way found me.  what should i do?

its the way i have to go.

I personally don't believe in statements like this.  To me, this is what a person says who doesn't know they are responsible for their life.  It's the words of a criminal or an addict.  Saying it is someone else who chose for them.  You're the only person who chooses where your feet go in life. 

You said you had your own thing, go that way.  It isn't hard to walk away from what is not yours when you understand the concept, and understand the harm. 

If you wish to insist your path is not your doing, then perhaps you could consider Spirit put you there so you could learn what not to do.  Which is take from another culture and sell as your own. 

I'm done now, there isn't anything more I have to say on this.  And not going to go in circles with words.  Be well.

[Superdog]

dear superdog,

we bove have much to learn.

you see what ist done to your culture. thats realy a pitty.

and i see what gift the spirits gave me to help others.

how get togehter?

Don't pity me.  I'm a very happy person with a very happy family.  The intent behind my words is nothing more than injecting some of the few things I've learned from life into the conversation.  I realize that I'm in no control over anybody else other than myself.  If what I say makes sense and you can use it then that's good...if not...it wasn't meant to be.  I find happiness regardless....and since you don't know what tribe I come from, you also must understand that you really don't know what's "been done" to my culture.  I've just been blessed enough to get around a little in life and people have trusted me enough to tell me lots of things in every community I've come in contact with, but I would never claim to speak for them.  

The issue people have here is that you're using Devalon Small Legs and the name of the Blackfoot Nation to legitimize yourself as a teacher, when in reality.....you're very much a beginner.  I can't say it any more plainly and you would have to have some trust in me to truly believe that, but I'm only words on a screen to you and that's ok.  My hope is that enough knowledgeable people will cross your path and repeat the same sentiment and rather than seeing it as an attack worthy of defense, you'd see it as knowledge coming your way.  

I'm not saying to not try and find your path in life through whatever way fits you.  I'm saying stop selling it on the internet. Once you put the price tag on it, then it becomes commercial.  It's not whether you're making a profit or just covering your expenses...once you get people to pay for it...they take on the idea that they've bought it...and it's theirs.  When you take that and put labels such as "having permission from a Blackfoot medicine man", "Blackfoot style", etc etc then people think they're buying Blackfoot culture and spirituality...when they think they own it, they go and sell it to others, regardless if what they've learned is true or not.  If you're a true admirer of Devalon, visit his community.  Get to know his family, friends and others and see what they do there.  I'm sure you'll find things much different than what you have going on at your home.  Spiritual leaders do work, have jobs, pay expenses honestly and ALSO take the time to help others when asked.  They don't do it for the promise of a gift and they balance their lives between helping others and also taking care of their home.  You've tipped the balance and made helping others your full time job.  Help is something that is offered without the promise of anything in return.  When you pay someone for "help" you're in reality "hiring" someone and that's NOT the same thing.

What's more troubling is that you've taken the dangerous practice of using plastic tarps for your sweat lodge...a practice that has killed people in the past and recently...and justify it in your mind by convincing yourself that it's "the Indian way"....."using everything available" or whatever way you to explain it.  The real sentiment behind that is using everything available FROM NATURE...plastic is unnatural and man-made...they don't go together.  It's dangerous and you must, for your safety and others, stop using it.  When you or another ends up hurt in some way because you've convinced them that plastic is "the Indian way" because Germany is very rainy...then the blame goes here...not to you and that's how you'll end up hurting Native peoples.

Humble yourself to the fact that you are just a human being, like me and like everyone else.  True wisdom is gained over time and involves learning the same thing in many different ways.  Some people never figure that out.  In my community there are people who are considered "elders" and then there are those just got old and made it without learning anything.  Elders are considered so by the entire community, not just because of age, but because the things they say make sense.  They are very humble individuals and never give themselves titles in order to impress others and are also very happy and fun to be around.  If you've closed your mind to learning things and consider yourself "the teacher" at this very young stage of your life then you'll really miss out on a lifetime of knowledge that could really be used to help people you know and trust.

I'm not your teacher or any teacher so getting together isn't something I'm offering.  I've got a full life of family and community that uses my time so if my words make sense to you...that's all I got.  If not....I'm not gonna be upset with you for it, but I certainly would feel disappointed for you if you choose not to understand anything that's written by knowlegeable individuals on this board....many much more knowledgeable than myself.

Superdog

[NDN_Outlaw]

There are a lot of people who claim to communicate with spirits but in reality there are very very few who are gifted with this. Most people hear the echo of their own desires. The mind is very powerful and can fool people and make them into fools. Also power is very seductive and would be "shamans" can be pulled into a whirlpool of their own ego. Perhaps you are not a fraud but you are simply misguided. Either way the out come is the same.

[Defend the Sacred]

There are a lot of people who claim to communicate with spirits but in reality there are very very few who are gifted with this. Most people hear the echo of their own desires. The mind is very powerful and can fool people and make them into fools. Also power is very seductive and would be "shamans" can be pulled into a whirlpool of their own ego. Perhaps you are not a fraud but you are simply misguided. Either way the out come is the same.

I agree. And it's almost always the ones who go on in public about their great psychic gifts, and how the spirits are speaking to (or through) them, who are the most deluded.

I've also seen some people with the potential to hear the spirits, or who have heard them a little bit, get seduced by their own ambition and ego and lose that ability. But by then they've built their sense of self (and sometimes, source of income) around their miniscule abilities. When even that little bit of talent leaves them, they get more deluded and learn to act, exaggerate, confabulate and lie. By that point they're usually so messed-up they don't even realize the extent to which they are lying.

A healthy spiritual/religious community has checks and balances: physical, physically present, elders and peers who will tell a would-be spiritual leader if they are misinterpreting or misrepresenting, or in other ways getting out of line. I wonder what language Jobst's alleged "grandfathers" speak to him? Somehow I doubt it's Blackfoot. And if it's German, somehow I doubt they're asking for plastic sweat lodges and fantasies of Plains Medicine Men.

It's common knowledge that if "the voices" are telling you to do something harmful, there's a problem. Either it's a brain malfunction, an over-active imagination, or you've hooked up with spirits who are malicious (or whom you've pissed off). Manfred, you seem to believe the spirits are telling you to do things that harm Native Americans (by harming their cultures), and that risk the lives and spiritual well-being of the ignorant people who trust you to lead ceremony. What does that say about the voices in your head?

[earthw7]

I am Lakota/Dakota i live among my people
I watch as you non-natives do these things
If your grandfather was Chickasaw what was his name?
In Indian country we can find out who your family
was. We as native people must ask these questions
I also know you don't have these rights to do this
No man can give you that right and you can not charge
for the lodge, if you must buy rocks and wood then you
must pay for them yourself not the people.
No one taught you the right way, the way you do things
is corrupted

[earthw7]

I don't believe he is going to listen to us because
he has the mentality of most frauds who believe they
are right.
They sell ceremonies which only brings harm
to those they claim to help.
These kind of people do so much harm to the people
that they claim to help and to the native people
they stole the ceremonies from the people.
A thief in the night who thinks that they have the
right to take what is not theirs to take.

He is a fraud
1. he sells ceremonies online
2. claims to hold Blackfeet ceremonies
3. he does not have the right to do this from the nation
4. He used the blackfeet's people name which is fraud
5. he refuse to listen when native people say it is wrong

[wacha nabi]

sorry i have to laugh.
all i haer here is judging me.
people who don`t know me are judge me.
the creator is my judge, not you.
these people think they know all about life and spirituality.

please make my day and put me on the fraud list.

[Freija]

Wacha Nabi - I have seen this happen so many times here in Europe. A Native person comes over and tells you everything you want to hear to boost your ego. (And quite often you´d have to pay for it) I don´t blame you for believing it to be true. It is extremely easy to go wrong if you haven´t visited traditional people in Native communities and actually stayed with them for a while.

I´ve been there, too, believing the misinformation I got from an exploiter before I had a chance to travel to the US and Canada. I´ve never participated in a faked ceremony, though (since some kind of intuition - call it spirits, if you like - told me it was wrong). So again, I would never blame people getting caught in the trap since exploiters are experts at manipulating.

What I do NOT understand, though, is that when you have a chance to listen to Native people, especially people living on the rez and practicing their traditions, you disregard their concern completely. Many reputed Lakota leaders have told me that when you do not follow the protocol conducting a sweat (like being Native, speaking the language, having the right training and being accepted by the community) the spirits do not come in and the ceremony could even become dangerous. I have been told that when/if I visit a faked ceremony in Europe I have to protect myself. And that is not even participating in it, just being close to it is enough.

And yes, I have also had the honour of visiting the Blackfoot in Canada and talked to medicinpeople there. They told me exactly the same thing.

Sooo, do you think these spiritual leaders are lying?

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

No one knows all about life and spirituality.  But the NA's here know about their own cultures and what is permissible and what is not. 

I think if you feel judged it is yourself.  I don't see judging here.  I see people telling you *why* it is not OK from their culture for you to take of it and use it. 

One could say you are judging as well.. and then the circle of words goes 'round and 'round.. 

oh well.

[LittleOldMan]

Wacha Nabi:   Young man hear this old man's words.  You have heard from true native Americans from several Plains Tribes.  These people were born and raised within their tradition.  They attend and take part in ceremony.  Creator gave the ceremony to them not to the Germans.  Creator gave to the Germans their own ceremony.  Stay in the tradition that was given to your own people.   A true Medicine person lives and breathes his Spirituality every second of the day.   He is humble and caring.  He is wise in that he knows when to use Creators power and just as much when not to.  He understands that if he uses the gift in a bad way that it will come back on him.  Read the White Buffalo Calf Woman's story.  What happen to the warrior who sought after the woman in an incorrect way.  It is not only that it is wrong to take what is not yous it is also dangerous.  Creator is not some figment of your mind but a living Entity who does not like what he has set up to be corrupted.  Young man heed my words I have been on this earth a long time and have seen much.   With respect I am called "Little Old Man"

[wacha nabi]

i`m glad that there other people who understands that we don`t have much more time
to find back to a life in respect for mother earth and the creation.
it`s time fight againt ignoranz, jealousy, fear and see thats more then evrybodys small world.

ho