From other thread re religons

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Church attendance is falling everywhere except in the evangelical/ fundamentalist churches. I notice some RC churches are now burning sweet grass and turning to the four directions as part of their service. Priests and nuns are going on vision quests and some ministers like Rev Dancing Hawk are no doubt using their new found knowledge to booster attendance. I realize this line of discussion is like kicking over a bees nest but I really wander how sincere Dancing Hawk is. Is his ministry really a disingenuous attempt to latch onto the NDN cultural revival ?

Wanted to reply, thought it best to do it here.

But now I don't know what it was I wanted to say.  Specifically.  On the lines of that..  the religions of type like Christianity are bound to fail.  It is based on separatism and intolerance.  I sincerely believe in the spirit within, and I sincerely believe that as that being within opens with time, evolution or whatever whathaveyou...  it is going to compel people to seek something that resonates with it. 

I believe fear is the driving factor among the deep evangelist.  I believe it because I have seen it.  If they feel threatened they will swarm to their churches.. and, they will kill in the name of their God. 

Well..  whatever. 

I've been doing some searches online, looking for beliefs that predate Christianity in Russia area.  If spiritual um... awareness?  gifts?  are passed down genetically.. I believe my spirituality came from that area.  But, I also have my own beliefs of this which is not based in genetics.

The NDN peoples are fortunate.  Imagine if you were born on another continent with your spiritual ancestor's .. or your spirituality intact.  And imagine if that spirituality had no place in the world you are born into.  Meaning, no elders, no community.. nothing.  Just you.  And imagine after 50 years you finally find that your spirituality comes from another continent, and you search and find that there is no real written information that predates Christianity..  and even if you could find traces, bits and pieces, you are perpetually poor and have no possible way to reach there, go there. 

All you have is your self, and your spiritual ties to ancestors.. which you have no community or elders to speak with to help sort it out.. to understand. 

I have to believe I was not born on this continent, in this country, in this time, in this society for no reason.  This is where I am.  It's fact.   I have been alone spiritually all my life.  This is not for pity.  This is fact.  I'm nomadic in nature, another fact. 

I have beliefs that I'm not sure they come from ancestor spiritual ties.. but I believe some things because of experience.  Past lives for example.  Although, I recall my deaths more than the lives.  But I will not be arrogant to say what happens to me at death will be for all.  But I do know what happens to me when I die.  Some could say it is fancy of imagination.  Eh. 

The point is that, what I believe doesn't quite fit in with the belief systems I've looked at.  Parts are similar, parts not.  But I have no authority on anything, no formal training by another human being.  I am not into rituals, but I understand the purpose for having them. 

Well, this spilled into a ramble of sorts.  But the religion that came and wiped out so much is bound to fall.  I believe in the Spirit and I believe in the spirit within humans/all beings.. and it's only a matter of time before something deeper emerges.. unfortunately, it's almost always met with fear.

It's true the knowledgeable people I have met in life, who have helped me.. do not run a business. They don't trade their spiritual 'gifts' for dollars.  They know selling the gifts is well, selling them.. and then you no longer have the gifts because they've been traded in for something else.  Usually dollars and/or notoriety.  I wouldn't trade what I have for anything in the world. 

Even though I am alone most of the time.  The last time I physically touched another human was 4 months ago.  Before that a year.  Most people cannot live what I have..  I was born without being held, or cuddled.  Contact was when I needed to be fed or changed, and then I was left alone.  My earliest memory is of learning to walk and being afraid to be found out as I didn't believe I was 'supposed' to walk. 

I survived the suicide years because an unseen being, spirit?, gave me vision and a promise.. it was the only way to keep me alive.  30 years later when I found it was a trick to keep me in this world I felt betrayed by/of my spirituality, Spirit itself.  Every thing crashed, leaving me open to vicious attacks.  Again, I survived.  It's a long story, and most would seem sci fi/fantasy and not acceptable to most human beings as any sort of reality.  It was.  I again survived, and survived more suicide years. 

Mostly I feel I have been rearranged. Sometimes, I know how to do something, if it flows, I do it.  But I don't put a price tag on it, nor do I go around advertising because it's not that kind of a thing.  It is not at my beck and call, nor is it for sale or trade. 

These people putting up businesses and claiming to utilize spirit or spirituality as a commodity are quite insane.  I don't care who you are, Spirit, and spirits, are not at your beck and call.  And to me, this is one of the fundamental issues of religions such as Christianity.  God owes them. 

Well, I guess if you give your soul to some unseen being, then I guess you would feel entitled that that unseen being owes you something in return.  The belief is flawed.  And it will fall. 

So.. you have masses turning to something indigenous... yet..  trying to keep it still within the frame of their religion.  You can't have it both ways.  One or the other. 

The indigenous peoples who do have their community, their elders.. people to connect and relate to, they are most fortunate.  Those who do not, but feel the religions empty..  have a long road.  Some will die, some will swap this for that but without really doing so (nuagers) and some will survive finding their own way..

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

To be fair, the vision and promise was not 'false' in regards to what most would deem 'false'.  It did come to be, only, not in the way I believed of it.  Interference, karma, my own failing and the failing of another circumvented it.  It took years for me to recover from having failed.  More suicide years as no direction or purpose sustained my life .. only the fact of having failed is what I woke to every day.  

I survived again.  

I am mentally, emotionally, and spiritually healthy.  But I had to die many times to get here.    

My thought is one of hope, that at some point a person may read my words here, and realize.. these people in business of spiritual commodity are false.  And this includes those who operate under the pretense of 'religion'.  The Catholic church is a business. 

[BlackWolf]

While I do disagree with certain things that has happened in the name of Christianity such as the fact that the Spaniards, Portugese,  British, and French imposed it on Indian people, and the so called civilization efforts in the United States through the Churches,  it is however the Spiritual belief of 2 billion in the world and praciticed on every continent in the world.  It is a spiritual belief system that originated in the mediterranean and probably gained most importance during the Roman empire.  All religions and spiritual beliefs can be criticized for their positives and negatives.  Whether it be Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, or the great diverse number of Spiritual beliefs held by Indian people in the Americas.

The NDN peoples are fortunate.  Imagine if you were born on another continent with your spiritual ancestor's .. or your spirituality intact.  And imagine if that spirituality had no place in the world you are born into.  Meaning, no elders, no community.. nothing.  Just you.  And imagine after 50 years you finally find that your spirituality comes from another continent, and you search and find that there is no real written information that predates Christianity..  and even if you could find traces, bits and pieces, you are perpetually poor and have no possible way to reach there, go there.

I don't know what you mean here?  If your of European descent, then its most likely you have some ancestors going back about 2000 years who practiced Christanity at some point in time.    I guess you mean there are no European Elders of pre chrstain European beleif systems.  Is that what you seek Critter?  Well, if you look at it from a Christain point of view, then, would priest and the clergy not be considered elders?  Would a christian neighborhood not be considered a community.  While I agree Christianity did not originate in the Americas, it didn’t originate in Europe either. Probably most world religions and beleif systems were imposed on others at one point in the time or the other.

I have friends of many  different diverse religions and backgrounds.  I have American Indian friends and had a close family member who was and were not Christians, I have Christian Friends, and I even have a muslim friend.  Everyone of them are all around good and well rounded  people from what I can see regardless of the diverse spiritual belief systems they each have.   

The problem is not whether someone is a Stomp Dancer, Sun Dancer, Catholic, Buddhist, Muslim or a beleiver in the pre Christain European religions.    The problem is usually with the individual themself.  Many people especially New Agers search for something that they are never going to find because they look in all the wrong places.  People should look to within themselves and maybe then they will find what they are looking for.

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

The NDN peoples are fortunate.  Imagine if you were born on another continent with your spiritual ancestor's .. or your spirituality intact.  And imagine if that spirituality had no place in the world you are born into.  Meaning, no elders, no community.. nothing.  Just you.  And imagine after 50 years you finally find that your spirituality comes from another continent, and you search and find that there is no real written information that predates Christianity..  and even if you could find traces, bits and pieces, you are perpetually poor and have no possible way to reach there, go there.

I don't know what you mean here? If your of European descent, then its most likely you have some ancestors going back about 2000 years who practiced Christanity at some point in time.    I guess you mean there are no European Elders of pre chrstain European beleif systems.  Is that what you seek Critter?  Well, if you look at it from a Christain point of view, then, would priest and the clergy not be considered elders?  Would a christian neighborhood not be considered a community.  While I agree Christianity did not originate in the Americas, it didn’t originate in Europe either. Probably most world religions and beleif systems were imposed on others at one point in the time or the other.

I mean from a non Christian, indigenous view.  I was speaking personally, and for me personally, a Christian priest is not my elder, nor is it my community.  

it is not what I 'seek'..  but realized recently that that is where my root descendants come from and I found it interesting, although, not practical since there isn't much traces left of those peoples.  

Just because a person comes/originates from Europe doesn't mean Christianity is automatically their ancestral roots.  And I was saying, 'what if' to the ndn peoples here.. what if you found yourself with your spirituality in a place that was 'out of place' so to speak.  For this, the ndn peoples in America and elsewhere are fortunate if they still have their culture, communities and elders to relate to.  I don't have that.  But I'm still fortunate. I survived against odds more than once in my lifetime.  I'm content with who I am, what I believe, and I am happy. Who could ask for anything more?  

I have friends of many  different diverse religions and backgrounds.  I have American Indian friends and had a close family member who was and were not Christians, I have Christian Friends, and I even have a muslim friend.  Everyone of them are all around good and well rounded  people from what I can see regardless of the diverse spiritual belief systems they each have.  

The problem is not whether someone is a Stomp Dancer, Sun Dancer, Catholic, Buddhist, Muslim or a beleiver in the pre Christain European religions.    The problem is usually with the individual themself.  Many people especially New Agers search for something that they are never going to find because they look in all the wrong places.  People should look to within themselves and maybe then they will find what they are looking for.

I don't really have any Christian friends because the ones I meet believe I am damned and going to hell, try to convert me, or preach scripture to me.  The friends I have who have Christian roots are people who no longer believe wholly what their religion teaches, they believe it's what's in the heart that matters, not what religion one believes.  

It's just a matter of point of view.  I don't care if someone believes this or that..  but I do care when one set or another becomes pushy and wants to make all people believe as they.  Or become pushy and try to make laws forcing others to live and abide by their religious beliefs.

I agree wholly to looking within.  

[BlackWolf]

Just because a person comes/originates from Europe doesn't mean Christianity is automatically their ancestral roots.

While I do agree with you here, I would also say that the various pre christain beleif systems in Europe aren't nesasarily either.  At some point in time, those beleif systems also had to origninate somewhere, just as Christianaty did, just as Islam did, and just as the belief systems in the Americas did.  Maybe some of those pre christain beleif systems in Europe even replaced belief systems that came before them?, etc, etc. I'm not arguing for one belief system or the other.  Just trying to make a point.  Who knows.  Maybe in a thousand years from now, there will be some other spiritual belief system on earth that replaces the ones that we know today.   

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Yes, I agree that beliefs migrate and evolve.

I understand your point, but there is nothing within me that resonates or agrees with the belief system of Christianity.  There are, as is with all beliefs, a few similarities, but on a whole there are more dissimilarities.

Perhaps what I feel connected to is not from the past but for a future.. I Really don't know on that..  nor do I believe or think it matters exactly 'where' the connections I feel come from. 

Coming to this forum and reading of people wanting or feeling to trace their spiritual roots sort of had me wondering then, where mine came from.  And as I looked for something from that side of the world that could very well be my roots.. I found there isn't much predating Christianity.  Since I know Christianity is not my roots.

I don't rightly "know" where my sense of spirituality comes from.  I was not raised with spiritual beliefs.  Yet I've always had since a small child..  always.  I have no recollection of my childhood without the deep sense I have of my spirituality. 

Coming to a forum such as this, and seeing/reading comments on community and culture, it just made me realize some things.  The importance of such things. 

For you and many, you can trace your lineage.. know where you came from, what your culture is and how that revolves around your spiritual roots.  I think that is most fortunate. 

[earthw7]

you see what we are taught is the spirituality is within you
you can not follow it you can not learn it because it is there
it don't come from a culture it come from believing in something
greater than yourself. To take time to pray each day to look at
the worlds wonders each day.
It is private.
A person is never alone as long as he or she reaches out that hand to others
no one is perfect nor should we be
all we can do is try to balance our lives the best way we can

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Yes, that is what I believe. It is within, not without.  I have issues with religions that make it outside ... I call it 'separatism'.  

When I speak of following it, I mean something more akin to moving towards something inside.. not following like a trail or path or a guru.  I think words are confusing, but we use them to try and speak about something.  To me, there really isn't any path to 'follow'..  it's a figure of speech, to me, to imply the movement of ones self within.

When someone asked me to teach them I know it's not possible.  It can't be taught. And I tell them this.  I tell them also they can't learn it with a 300 or 9000 dollar workshop either.  

What I meant by being alone is in perspective of view point. I was never lonely.. I was just alone in terms of 'relating' to others in terms of belief.  

Also, I meant alone in that, well.. I am.    But I don't mind. It is nice to know that I can survive and be happy even if no others are in my life.  People, I mean, there are others who are not people.  Like, cats, dog, trees, etc..  

It is private, I agree.  What is within is only there for the person it is within in.  But, I still see from my eyes.. looking at this board, reading posts, I see a culture/community of agreement in perspective of belief, even if the beliefs are not exact in/with each other, it is still present, the community/culture.  

I see the culture moves around/from the spirituality.. not the other way around.  The culture does not create the spirituality .. the spirituality creates the culture.  

The world is wonder, and part of my belief is to use the eyes of the child, and the heart.. so to be open to all things anew.. it is nice to look at the day with the wonder of a child's eye and the openness of a child's heart.  

And I agree too, on balance, and that no one is perfect.  


edited to say Thank you for responses. 

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

A person is never alone as long as he or she reaches out that hand to others

Physically, to/with people.. this is true, provided he or she knows how to do such a thing.  I didn't.  As child I did not know how to be with people. I never had bonding with people.  I could have become sociopath if I had not had so much love for Earth and animals. 

[earthw7]

but you reached out to us here on the site thats a plus

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

 Yes, it's a major plus for me..  

I have changed drastically in my life time.  I will be half a century in a few months..  my posts on what I lived are from ago.  There was a time when I was so terrified of people that I could barely grocery shop, and then to bring the food into the house?  Where someone might see me doing this?  LOL  

I did have one friend who befriended me when I was 9.  When we reached high school, she brought to me 3 other friends, so I was not without friends at that time, however, I wasn't social.  Didn't go to parties or dances or anything they did.  I didn't find interest there, I was too busy involved in my meditations.  I never dated.  And I was highly suicidal, and full of hatred as well, but only towards people, my love and heart was with Earth.  At one time I started to go to my parents to tell them I needed psychological help.. but half way there, I knew they wouldn't provide me with it. So I turned around, went back to my room and said, well, I'll have to figure this out on my own.  And then I went very deeply into meditations, 8 to 10 hours a day to figure out what was wrong with me.  Turned out there was nothing wrong with me at all.  

I found ways to live with the abuse of my home..  and came out OK.  

I am very proud of my family though, we as a family have all turned around and are not anything at all as we were when I was growing up.  So, when I speak of the things I lived with them, it is as though different people altogether.  It is good when life brings people to a better place than where they started.  

I am happy with myself.  And that is really all that matters.  I prefer to be open even if it brings ridicule which quite often it does.. oh well.  That is not my problem or concern.  

I am forever grateful to whatever forces, spirits, Spirit whatever exists that is good and strong that has seen to it my survival and that I have reached the place I am today.  I have no regrets..  except maybe one, of not keeping up with my guitar.

And that grateful extends to the time I in the sweat lodges.  It is a special place in my heart for those people, and all ndn's who follow that way in the right/respectful way.  When I read of people reported on this board who are spitting on these ways, by turning profit.. it is an insult and it angers me deeply.  I am very protective of what I love, and I loved the lodge when I was there, and I still love it even though it was a long time ago that I was there.  

Well.. this is a ramble and a half.. but maybe you know me better now.  Most times in life I am outside.. looking in at people.. I like it that way for the most part.. I don't really know it any other way.

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

per my remarks on abuse in my family.  My family is good people.  Good hearts.  Good souls.  What ever mishaps and wrongs were mistakes.. or perhaps one could say even karmic.  It has all been what it was, and no one is without some kind of bad marks in their life.  As a family we learned and we are all very close now.  My remarks were in no way intended as to be negative comments on them, but to only give what I have lived of. 

Thank you.

[earthw7]

ah Critter you should live our lives,
we were taken from our families
beaten, raped, molested, told we
are not worth living. Then sent home
to our families who had many problems
because they lived though the same thing.
We survived because The great Spirit gaves
us laughter and forgivness most of all courage.
We know that no matter what we must live
to fight for our people and this earth.
We have ways that are healing but today
it hard to know who is actual healed and who
is just using us for their own benefit. Who will
abuse our ways in which we fought so hard
to keep. The ones who would take money
for the gift to pray make dirty.
The ones who care nothing for our people
and their stuggles only for their pockets.
I don't know your life but i know that
being here you found a friend

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Thank you.  You too have found a friend here.

I don't know why ndn peoples have had this fate.. I don't
know ..  but I believe it will not be forever, and that you hold
good purpose, and hold together.  

Sure some fall off, perhaps don't see the point, or that it is not
worth it, ..  they sell out and walk away.  It is they who have lost.

I think when things are so muddy that you can no longer know
who to trust, then it is best to keep your ways secluded.  You
wish to protect those ways, and keep them safe and strong..
no real person can fault ndn peoples (or any peoples) for doing that.
No one puts what they love out for the thieves to take.  

I believe at some point in time, it changes.  You come out the
other side of this better.  I don't believe things in life are
pointless, I do not understand much, or know, and have no
answers for my life or anyone's.  But, I believe in something..
and that something tells me that things are for reason. We wait.
And persevere.

You wouldn't want to have lived my life.  Nor me yours.  I
believe our lives are for us alone, and what we meet here, in
life, is specific to our own being with Spirit.  No one knows.
Some hardships people suffer are so much more than others,
some so much less.. and some are equal, but entirely different.  
But I think the common in it is in finding that courage.  
To stand and keep on..  and yes..  to laugh.  

Thank you again for extending to me friendship. It may seem
corny to say, but in all honesty, I will take care of it with every
ounce of my being.  

Be well with love.

[Defend the Sacred]

No one puts what they love out for the thieves to take.

This.