Cherokee Freedmen Discussion

[BlackWolf]

Many people have a stereotypical Hollywood ideal about what an Indian Nation should look like.  While I do agree that a full blood community and Traditional people are important and the backbone of a tribe, it is not the only way in 2010, ( over 500 years after Columbus set foot in the Americas” to define an Indian Nation.  And yes, Don, they are sovereign.  This is a concept that even one of my little nephews can grasp about citizenship and being a citizen of a Nation..  You’re a citizen of the US, France, China, etc. Its fascinating that grown adults can’t seem to understand it.    Indian Nations have their own citizens also, and ONLY THEY determine who is and is not. 

I would counter that just the opposite has occurred with the CN in regards to the BQ.  More citizens means more political and economic clout in the United States. All Cherokees have a common bond of having Cherokee blood.  Whether you’re a full blood or just have a drop.  I do agree with you though that tradition and culture are important.  I think the CN is addressing this issue in Oklahoma with their community organizations and even in places like California and Texas with the Satellite comminutes. 

[BlackWolf]

When the time comes in the not to distant future when Tribal Sovereignty is again threatened. ( Make no doubts about it, ( ITS COMING and just a matter of time ).  300,000 citizens will be more important then 10,000.  Same goes for the Navajo.  The only argument that can be made about the BQ is in regards to services.  More enrolled members means less services to go around.  But this isn’t always the case, as more members also mean more funding.  Depends how you look at it.  That’s why there has been a lot of disenrolment in places like California.  But these tribes will begin to see that in the long run that they are only hurting themselves.  Don touched on this in his post about how.  America and Canada is changing.  He said there were more foreign born people in Canada then the entire Indian population there.  That should put things into perspective.  There are more foreign born immigrants in New York City alone then the entire number of enrolled members of Federally Recognized Tribes in the entire United States of America.  Many of these people look at themselves as oppressed people in their own countries of origin and sometimes even here, and many are completely ignorant about American Indians.  I’m not going to name the country here, but I recently met an immigrant that has been here about 10 years who came from a particular country, and  I got to making small talk with him.  To my surprise he never even heard of the Lakotas or the Cherokees and he thought that all the Indians were gone as he put it.  This is a true story. Then you have a lot of other Americans whether it be white or black who think we get special rights.

Don is on target when he talks about the Right Wingers and Tea Baggers who always thought we had special rights to begin with becoming restless now combined with the fact that America is going bankrupt ( it already has ), and we have more and more immigrants who don’t have the inherent guilt about what the White Invaders did here, and in some cases never even heard of the Lakotas and Cherokees so it will be interesting to see what awaits our Tribal Sovereignty in the not so distant future.  Anyone that knows what happened in our not so recent  past with the Indian Termination Policies knows what I’m talking about.  History ALWAYS repeats itself and ALWAYS will.  American Indians instead of worrying about BQS and residency requirements and who knows the ways and who was raised white, etc,etc should start uniting as American Indians.  We are already seeing encroachment on Tribal Sovereignty with the Casinos. Casinos aren’t going to last forever.  The same goes for water rights and mineral rights, and a long list of other so called “special rights” that isn’t only the opinion of our Canadian Friend Don.  He’s got a lot of company out there..  American Indians need to unite now.   

[BlackWolf]

That much I did understand, Black Wolf.  I know there are Freedmen who trace to the final rolls but not by blood.  I understand also that there are some Freedmen who do trace back to native blood lines and that they were not affected by the vote.  Is that not the case?

sorry white wolf, just saw your post.  Exactly.

[LittleOldMan]

Thank you BW  I believe that we are on the same page.  I also like what the CNO is doing with the satellite communities.  I have seen so much cultural wrongheadedness on the powwow trail that it very much needs to be addressed properly.  Now, I do not know the right way to do this, but it makes sense to me that if the three Federal Cherokee tribes were to address this in a good way that the problem of state tribes would be lessened. It might not get rid of all the egocentric frauds but by educating those of Cherokee descent in proper culture it could lessen their effect greatly. I am not calling for some type of second class citizenship here but some way of enlisting all people of Cherokee descent so as to protect the future of the culture and the Tribes.  With respect Degadageyusesdi I am "LittleOldMan"

[BlackWolf]

Thank you BW  I believe that we are on the same page.  I also like what the CNO is doing with the satellite communities.  I have seen so much cultural wrongheadedness on the powwow trail that it very much needs to be addressed properly.

http://www.cherokee.org/Organizations/Communities/Default.aspx[/quote]]

[url]http://www.cherokee.org/Organizations/Communities/Default.aspx[/url]

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I agree, but the thing about these communities is that they are only set up ( or potentially set up ) in areas that have a significant number of Cherokee citizens who actually live in that particular area.  And educating the enrolled citizens is what they were or are set up for.  I'm not saying its not a good thing for non enrolled citizens to go to them and learn, but just that not everyone will live in an area that has one and wants to learn about Cherokee culture.

So unless you live in Calironia, the Houston, Texas area, New Mexico, or Central Florida, you really don't have many options other then taken a trip to Oklahoma or NC.   

[BlackWolf]

The link wasn't working. Here it is again
http://www.cherokee.org/Organizations/Communities/Default.aspx

[LittleOldMan]

That's fine it has to begin somewhere.  Doesn't mean it has to stop let the good grow.  May take awhile but it may be meant to happen.  Perhaps we will all come together again one day.  "LOM"

[Paul123]

@BW,
you said in post 46:
When the time comes in the not to distant future when Tribal Sovereignty is again threatened. ( Make no doubts about it, ( ITS COMING and just a matter of time ).  300,000 citizens will be more important then 10,000.  Same goes for the Navajo.  The only argument that can be made about the BQ is in regards to services.  More enrolled members means less services to go around.  But this isn’t always the case, as more members also mean more funding.  Depends how you look at it.


Are you prognosticating?


Also,  If 300,000 citizens are more important than 10,000.
Then It would seem that 800,000 would be more powerful than 300,000.

(sorry, I couldn't help but beat that horse one more time.)

Including the Freeman, (if they want to be included). After all this is a thread about them. 

[BlackWolf]

Also,  If 300,000 citizens are more important than 10,000.
Then It would seem that 800,000 would be more powerful than 300,000.

Your assuming that everyone who claims Cherokee ancestry is in fact of Cherokee ancestry.  Its not 500,000 Paul.  I’m using 500,000 because I”m assuming your adding the 300,000 enrolled Cherokees to that number of 800,000.  Its not even 200,000 or 100,000.  A conservative estimate would be under 10,000 of people not enrolled in one of the three Federally Recognized Tribes but who may have Cherokee ancestry.  And that’s being extremely generous as its probably less then even that number. Any reputable Cherokee Historian, American Historian, Anthropologist, or Genealogist will tell you the same thing.  Most of those stories of Cherokee ancestry are in fact just that. STORIES.  I guess you missed the boat on this one Paul.

Including the Freeman, (if they want to be included). After all this is a thread about them.

There are about 1500 enrolled decendents of Freedmen.  Freedmen decendents who can't enroll but may have Cherokee ancestsry would be only handfuls of people.  It woudln't be a significant number.

[Paul123]

Also,  If 300,000 citizens are more important than 10,000.
Then It would seem that 800,000 would be more powerful than 300,000.

Your assuming that everyone who claims Cherokee ancestry is in fact of Cherokee ancestry.  Its not 500,000 Paul.  I’m using 500,000 because I”m assuming your adding the 300,000 enrolled Cherokees to that number of 800,000.  Its not even 200,000 or 100,000.  A conservative estimate would be under 10,000 of people not enrolled in one of the three Federally Recognized Tribes but who may have Cherokee ancestry.  And that’s being extremely generous as its probably less then even that number. Any reputable Cherokee Historian, American Historian, Anthropologist, or Genealogist will tell you the same thing.  Most of those stories of Cherokee ancestry are in fact just that. STORIES.  I guess you missed the boat on this one Paul.

Including the Freeman, (if they want to be included). After all this is a thread about them.

There are about 1500 enrolled decendents of Freedmen.  Freedmen decendents who can't enroll but may have Cherokee ancestsry would be only handfuls of people.  It woudln't be a significant number.

Not really,, I was just giving you some talking points.

[E.P. Grondine]

There are about 1500 enrolled decendents of Freedmen.  Freedmen decendents who can't enroll but may have Cherokee ancestsry would be only handfuls of people.  It woudln't be a significant number.

Unless you happen to 1 of that number. Then its a significant number.

[Paul123]

While I do fully support any Tribe to do as they wish, the numbers game that this thread now seems to be debating needs some attention.

The numbers all depend on who is doing the counting.  As E.P. Grondine said even 1 is important if your that one. However the actual numbers given by the CN say of the total number of dis-enrolled Freeman was about 2800,,,  not 1500 total Freeman and just a handful that were disenfranchised.

As for the numbers of NDNs I mentioned:
 I mentioned 1/2 a million people that already self identify as Cherokee yet they are not enrolled in one of the 3 fed Tribes and that number got cut down in less than one paragraph to below 10,000.

Of the above mentioned people that say they are Cherokee the figure of more like 1 million Total that would claim Cherokee ancestry (not counting the other 2 fed Tribes/Bands). This number comes from the CN.  Of this, About 300,000 are enrolled, 500,000 un-enrolled people that say they are Cherokee, The other 200,000ish are the ones that will be glad to tell you about their NDN Princess gggGrandmother but don't claim to be Cherokee.  As BW says most all of these 200,000 can't prove it or won't even bother to check.

Of the 2 un-enrolled groups there are at least 300,000 that won't find any proof. and sure of them perhaps some have out right lied about their genealogy but,  that still leaves a couple hundred thousand that would more than likely be an asset to the Tribe not a liability. But if a time comes when they are needed they may not feel welcome and would just stay where they are (where ever that is).

All of these numbers, whether they be the Freeman or all of the Cherokee combined are but a very small number these days. When it comes to power in Washington DC hell the NRA has more power. Even if in the wildest dreams the Cherokee Nation would unite with everyone the numbers wouldn't amount to much more than the attendance of 2 or 3 good football games.

[BlackWolf]

However the actual numbers given by the CN say of the total number of dis-enrolled Freeman was about 2800,,,  not 1500 total Freeman and just a handful that were disenfranchised.

The 1,500 number is the number of Cherokee citizens who are Cherokee by blood but also have a Freedmen ancestor on the Dawes Roll.  They are not Freedmen, they are "Cherokee".  The (2800) were people who only have Freedmen ancestors listed on the Dawes Roll and are not Cherokee by blood.  Even though the 1500 also have Freedmen ancestors, for the CN, they are not Freedmen, they are Cherokee.  Just as the many Cherokee citizens who are part Scotish, are not Scotish, they are just Cherokee.

[BlackWolf]

As BW says most all of these 200,000 can't prove it or won't even bother to check.

 
And also, most people that claim Cherokee heritage aren't running around in buckskin and bone choker necklaces on claiming to be Elders, Chiefs and pipe carriers.  Most have probably never even been to a powwow and are just normal people.   Even a lot of celebrities claim Cherokee heritage such as Johnny Depp, Chuck Norris, Michael Jackson, President Clinton, President Obama, Cher, Rosa Parks, James Earl Jones, Kevin Costner, etc.  I've had neighbors, teachers, friends, in laws, co workers, classmates, and people I just bump into on the street all tell me they are part Cherokee.  Some of them probably do have Cherokee heritage, but at some point you have to realize that it is just numerically impossible for this to be the case with all of them.

[Paul123]

Agreed, But I wonder,, has anyone ever done that math? I did a very rough quickie on those that can't be accounted for from the TOT. I think that about the absolute best one could hope for today from them would be around 20,000. The problem with the others is that there is no way to know for sure how many there were that weren't found/didn't go. To have 1/2 a million people today there would have had to have been at least 20 to 30 thousand of them back then. That is A LOT of NDNs. to lose track of. But you would also have to take into account that there would have been a bunch from several other Tribes that somehow all turned into Cherokee today. I don't think that there are very many Kickapoo wannabees today. (know what I mean Vern)?



(math check:
1200 unaccounted for from the start till the finish of the TOT.
toss out 200 that may have died or never had kids
assume 5 kids per
for 4.5 generations
toss out 2500 for a mortality rate.)