Unenrolled Indians, Indian Descendants, and people of American Indian Heritage

[Paul123]

<You seem not to agree with my statement in regards to spirituality.  Can you explain why?>

Well,, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing.  but with that said, I do believe that one can learn anything if they have the right teacher.

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

I do believe that one can learn anything if they have the right teacher.

I don't agree with this. The statement puts the responsibility of learning
on the teacher. The teacher is not the one learning.

You can have the right teacher and not learn a thing.  I would say that
everything a person learns is solely on the person learning.  Even with
the worst or wrong teacher, a person can learn an abundance. 

But I think in this context, of what Blackwolf is saying, is that there are elements of
the cultural spirituality that without being actually raised within it, a person would never
really learn. This is something I do agree with. 

Because, as close as a person may come to understanding another culture, they are still
not 'of' it.  You can retrain your brain and mind to think in or within certain terms, or
perspective, but the old operating system is still there and does play a part.

Raised within the culture and the cultural spirituality, there is no other programming format
that is in play.  The syntax of the entire cultural and spiritual system is intact. There are no gaps.
And that makes it complete in a sense that it can never be with a person not raised within.

I hope that makes sense.  Not sure I can express it better.

[bls926]

<You seem not to agree with my statement in regards to spirituality.  Can you explain why?>

Well,, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing.  but with that said, I do believe that one can learn anything if they have the right teacher.

While you might not be able to learn "anything", with the right teacher you can come very close. Having the right teacher makes all the difference in the world. I would listen to the Elders; try to learn from those who are very connected to the Nation. You may not learn the total of Cherokee spirituality, but you will gain a definite appreciation for the traditional beliefs. There are many enrolled Cherokee who do not practice the traditional Cherokee ways. As BlackWolf pointed out, there are many Baptists, Methodists, and other Christian denominations among the Cherokee. I doubt if some have taken the time or had the interest to learn the traditional ways.

[BlackWolf]

Paul123 said

I do believe that one can learn anything if they have the right teacher.

So lets assume Paul that you actually do find the right teacher that is willing to help you.   
But let me ask you this?  Have you ever actually been to a Traditional Cherokee community in either Oklahoma or  NC?  Are you willing to relocate to Oklahoma and reestablish your life in a Traditional Cherokee community there? Are you willing to quit your job and move you and your whole family there to start anew?  Are you willing to toss out many of your old beliefs that have shaped your entire life up until now? Once you move there, are you willing to get involved in your new Community?   Are you willing to become part of Ceremonial Life in your new community?  Will you become part of a Ceremonial Grounds out there and take medicine?  If this is so, will you go on a Regular Basis, month after month, year after year, decade after decade?  Will you grow old and die with this new found Spirituality and belief system?  Are you Christian?  Most Traditional people involved in Ceremonial life there are non Christians.  Will you reevaluate your old belief system?  Will you incorporate your new found spirituality into your everyday life?  


 Are you willing to dedicate your life to your new Community?  Are you willing to live your whole life there? Are you willing to die there in your new community?.  

The other thing I would ask is will you actually truly believe in your new found belief system?  And if so why?  Since as of now, you know nothing of Cherokee Spirituality, how can you put so much faith into something you know nothing of?  Answer me at least some of these questions Paul, and  I might be able to understand where your coming from?

[Paul123]

< Answer me at least some of these questions Paul, and  I might be able to understand where your coming from?>


That's a lot of questions for sure.
First let me say that the past few posts seems to be leaning more to the side of, learning everything, rather than what I can.  I'd be happy with some history and culture, anything else would be the cherry on top.

And yes one may have a great teacher and not learn (or visa versa). That's a given.

Now for all of those questions, (in order).
1: no,
 (I assume passing through as a runaway teenager doesn't count) <ha,ha>

2: no,
 And neither was my past 3 generations either. They staid right where they were born,  and raised their families and crops as best they could. ( well some of them moved all over the dang place and some went to IT on the TOT, (but that was about 4 generations ago)). As I said before, My parents didn't want me to think of my self as anything but white.

Given that this second question was a no, the rest of your questions are moot.
 (but serve a purpose to others reading this).

Don't misunderstand, I do see your point. (and the points made here by bls926 and critter).
However I also am not out there tiring to become Super-Injun either.
I'm getting old now, as I said,  I'd be happy with some history and culture. I do agree that someone that was not raised NDN will never be able to know/understand it all.  Some of it, yes.

I don't think that those Pow Wow-Super-twinkies that learned what they have care what someone from the CNO thinks either. They are surrounded by like minded people and they all feed off of each other. Nothing said here will matter at all to them. There is a whole sub-culture of them. And some of them get so wound up in all of this that they do go out and try to form their own tribes like the "Golf & Country Club Cherokees" in Alabama. or the Guys in Deltona Fl. that have appointed themselves as tribal police officers that patrol their tribal land (so what if it's only a corner lot in a suburban neighborhood).
 
 

[Moma_porcupine]

I think in a way Blackwolf has a really good point ... Though it probably depends a bit on how far back a persons ancestry is and if they have living relatives who have remained a part of the original Native community ....

Unles people move back to a Native community and commit their lives and their families life , to this community, I don't think anyone who's family has been disconnected with a culturally strong native community for more than a generation or 2 at most, will ever be able to learn the culture in such a way as to be able to reclaim those traditions and carry them forward.

I think what people might realistically hope to learn, through experiencing real culture and learning about the history , is to recognize where some of the influences that already exist in themselves and in their own family came from.

This is true when people learn about the history and culture of all their ancestors whether they were European or Native.

I think when people get to know their own background, there is a chance to make connections and put things in context.

It is sort of like if your grandfather was Spanish, when you go to Spain you would learn about his culture, and what influences your parent may have been responding to when they made the choices they did . Maybe he was in a war, and by learning about that, you suddenly understand why he always got quiet and left the room whenever a certain person or town was mentioned, or why something would make him angry.

I think many people who grew up outside the culture also sometimes notice there is certain things that always made them feel good, and when they learn there is a connection between that feeling and their roots, whatever those various roots may be, there is a feeling of being connected with something bigger than yourself, which is probably the foundation of a lot of Spiritual belief systems.

I think maybe that is where a lot of PODIAs and mixed blood people get confused, because in a culture which isolates people by placing so much emphasis on individual development and aquisition,  that feeling of being connected with something greater than themselves is very attractive, so they then try and imitate and personally carry the Spiritual traditions they think are most likely to bring them more of that feeling.

I think this desire to personaly own this glimmer of trancescdental feeling is misplaced, and it would be a lot better if these people simply enjoyed the feeling of connection they have , from the sidelines, leaving the resources to the people who actually have an unbroken tradition and knowledgable life long community support. It is these people who are best able to be the ones to sucessfully carry these traditions into the future generations, so these generations can also enjoy the benifits of an unbroken line of ancient tradition.  

But even though a lot of people get confused and go on to misappropriate Native traditions, and generally make a major nuicence of themselves to the people who actually have this job, I do think descendents who no longer actually live in the culture,  can benifit , from being allowed to have an experience of the  real culture and feel a sense of some things being in better context and perspective.

However, if these people can't govern themselves and their relatives, to prevent them from grabbing bits of ancient traditions and mangling them, I think the responsibilites the rightful carriers of these traditions have to future generations, is a reasonable grounds for completely excluding these people or only allowing them to participate from the sidelines.

So from that standpoint, when it comes to their Native heritage, I think the first thing PODIAs who live outside of a Native community which has continuously maintained the traditions could learn, is to stay on the sidelines and appreciate what is shared from that position only.
=======
edited to add
 Maybe after a couple of generations of watching and finding unobtrusive ways to support a Native communitiy, some of these traditions could gradually be reclaimed. But i think that would take more than one generation, if this was done in a real way, and not a cheap imitation.

[BlackWolf]

Moma_porcupine said

However, if these people can't govern themselves and their relatives, to prevent them from grabbing bits of ancient traditions and mangling them, I think the responsibilites the rightful carriers of these traditions have to future generations, is a reasonable grounds for completely excluding these people or only allowing them to participate from the sidelines.

I'm starting to realize more and more that this is how things need to be done Moma_porcupine. 
Its like, you invite someone over for dinner Friday night.  At desert time, not only do they eat all the cake, but they eat the cherry on top that wasn't meant for the guest.  They didn't even ask.  And they wind up making it their business to stay all weekend.  You probably wouldn't invite this person back for dinner.

[Rattlebone]

Moma_porcupine said

However, if these people can't govern themselves and their relatives, to prevent them from grabbing bits of ancient traditions and mangling them, I think the responsibilites the rightful carriers of these traditions have to future generations, is a reasonable grounds for completely excluding these people or only allowing them to participate from the sidelines.

I'm starting to realize more and more that this is how things need to be done Moma_porcupine. 
Its like, you invite someone over for dinner Friday night.  At desert time, not only do they eat all the cake, but they eat the cherry on top that wasn't meant for the guest.  They didn't even ask.  And they wind up making it their business to stay all weekend.  You probably wouldn't invite this person back for dinner.

 Well isn't things usually put in place to prevent them from happening in the first place?

 What I usually see is that even with people that are visibly "racially" NDN and enrolled, they still don't just get an open invite to show up to ceremonies and other things.

  I have seen on so many occasions where a person must go speak to the elder or person running a particular ceremony so that the person in question can be spoken to in order to see where their head is at and what kind of person they are. If they have never been to such a thing, then I have seen where the elder and people who have given them the invite explain things to them, talk about whatever things should or should not be done etc, and what to expect.

 If any so called spiritual leader or elder just let people show up to ceremony or other things without doing such things, I would question them just as much as I would the people showing up.

 To much in this thread and on this site it is spoken as if people who are enrolled or high BQ are naturally connected because of it and would know what is right or wrong, and that is simply not true.

 Due to this being 2010 and not 1410, so many native people are just as clueless about things as these PODIA people. To say otherwise is wrong.

 Anyone regardless of BQ or enrollment status should be spoken to by an elder or person running a ceremony to see if them coming there is a good idea. If after being approved they do things that they were told not to, or persist in doing what they have been asked not to; then regardless of BQ, status etc, they would and should likely be sent away.

 Enrolled and high BQ people are just as likely now days to mangle things,or be ignorant of them as non enrolled low BQ people.

[Moma_porcupine]

Rattlebone

Enrolled and high BQ people are just as likely now days to mangle things,or be ignorant of them as non enrolled low BQ people.

Rattlebone
We have all seen situations where enrolled and or high BQ people become exploiters, but in almost every situation, these people are supported and encouraged by a mainly non native or low BQ or unenrolled audience. In other words, in almost every situation of exploitation, the traditions involved are being exploited outside of a context of a Native community which has continuosly maintained it's culture. And it's pretty obvious that enrolled or high BQ people are a lot more likely to have culturally appropriate guidence and community support, so they are a lot less likely to become abusers, at least within the context of maintaining these traditions in their own communities.

So what you are saying here doesn't seem true .

If those traditions get mangled and destroyed, everybody looses , and if they are maintained properly, everybody with any connection gains. So cultural preservation, would seem to be more important than every individual being able to be front and center when it comes to maintaining whatever tradition they take a fancy to ....  

You must know this, in yet you act like this isn't really a problem, and continue to argue on behalf of the people who remove these traditions from traditional communities .

Which seems strange.

[BlackWolf]

Some of the issues of who is excluded or not would also depend on the particular Tribe and particular Ceremony or Grounds that are involved.  In Oklahoma there are some grounds that accept non Indians, Unenrolled Indians, and outsiders. A friend of mine told me that there are even Asians that participate at one of the grounds there.  But I think these are exceptions to the rule.  I think exceptions are OK to a certain extent.  But my personal opinion is that these exceptions to the rule will happen regardless.  Although there are enrolled Indians that may exploit, from what  I can see, most of the people stealing and mangling ceremonies are white folks or other Non Indians masquerading as Cherokees, Lakota Sioux, and other well know tribes.  And to a very lesser extent Enrolled Indians and Unenrolled Indians.

The example of that John Two Hawks guy is one good example of why people should be excluded from Ceremony.  He probably went out to South Dakota and took advantage of some well meaning Indian people, and betrayed their trust.  I think cases like this are more likely to happen as opposed to cases of the humble unenrolled Indian and/or American Indian Claimant that can participate in Ceremony and conduct themself in a humble non intrusive way.  I think the general rule that Moma_porcupine mentions of excluding people is really the only way for Tribes to protect themselves at this point in time.  Unfortunately, this is what it has come down to.  And like I said, if it’s really meant for someone that is  unenrolled to be part of Ceremony, then it will happen behind the scenes.  It won’t happen on the Internet, and probably not in Public.  I have seen cases of enrolled Indians exploiting, but from what I can see, it’s pretty much across the board the “Claimants” of American Indian Heritage and White Folks that mangle and misappropriate.  This is so because these people aren’t accountable to nobody but themselves and their own Twisted Egos, while Enrolled Indians are accountable to their Tribe and Family name.  I have seen cases of disconnected Enrolled Indians maybe doing something that’s not quite right, or misinterpreting a particular ceremony, etc, but these are usually honest mistakes as opposed to blatant exploitation by these CLAIMANTS of American Indian heritage.  The enrolled Indians that do exploit for money are usually denounced by their Tribe.

[E.P. Grondine]

I have been away for a while tending to an ill friend, and return to see more frauds exposed, and help gathered for those hit hard by the winter.

It is good to see civil discussion and sharing of thoughts on these questions, as these problems allow the fraudsters to thrive. As I mentioned earlier, I know the questions, but the answers are not mine to give.

I do want to express my opinion that in every case it will be a decision by the elders of each people which course of action to take. and those decisions will vary from nation to nation depending on their own circumstances and most likely may vary from the decisions made by the elders of other nations.

I think that all here may share deepest concern for the California peoples, and wish them the best in the recognition process.

Let us hope that some of the worst fraudsters will recieve justice soon for their acts.

[Vida]

What I'm about to write here is some thoughts and opinion based on my own life experience and sure it was influenced by wisdom of some other people, both my Slovenian and my husband's Dine. English is not my maternal language (it's Slovenian) so I apologize if my English isn't always correct or my expressions seem odd. I'm also aware that several thoughts in my post have been already written by other people here, but it seems there is still a lot of things unclear about these issues, especially with people who were not raised within Native community (not to mention "wannabes").
As Slovenian it's definitely not my place to say who should or should not be considered a member of a certain tribe or nation, I'll just write down some thoughts in general on difference of being geneticaly (or "by blood") a member of a certain nation and being a descendant raised and living among other members of that particular tribe/nation. The latter involves BOTH an individual's personal identity, which goes much deeper than just simple statement I'm X, it means deep understanding (not just rational, but also emotional, symbolic, and practical in every day life) - of the land, cultural and spiritual ways AND  his/her place in the particular community which involves all the complex relations among the person and other members of the community. All that cannot be given or achieved or learned, and of course not bought, by any means. It's about evolving, growing into certain society, it's about weaving the complex pattern of relations with the people and their cultural and spiritual ways of life and this is a multiple way process that cannot be decided or lead or speeded-up by the person who wish to become a member of certain society, no matter what his/her BQ is.  Considering this, it is obvious that being Dine, Lakota, Slovenian ... etc. other than merely by blood cannot be a matter of statement/personal decision it's a matter of everyday LIFE and long term interaction with other members of the nation. It's something that is hard to comprehend and accept for some people, because it goes beyond individualistic conception of today's narcissistic Euro-American society. Part of that conception are certain convictions such as: "You can become all you want to be" "If you put enough effort anything can be achieved/got" "What you think/feel is who you are."  These deeply impressed conceptions and lack of awareness of the meaning of the community are also part of the reason why it's so hard or even impossible to convince wannabes that they are on a wrong path.
And what to do if you happen to be Native by blood but have lived off the community most of your life and would like to get closer or if you have a partner/spouse from a different nation (there is difference in these two situations, but a lot is also in common)? Here I can share some of my life experience that worked. First thing that later came out to be the foundation of all good relations with Dine was my awareness of who I really was (both my personal identity and cultural background). The second thing was to FORGET what kind of relation I might wish to have or what place I might wish to get in the Dine community. No pretending, no acting, no wannabe thinking/acting. At the beginning I've just looked for what we share, what we already have in common just as simple human beings and see how our relations evolve. And I've found a lot! More than enough to find a good way to exist and be comfortable both ways within Dine community. BTW, I was just dropped to the middle of the Rez by some strange coincidences and hadn't learned anything about Dine from any book before I found myself on the Rez. And that came out later to be on my side - I started learning directly from Dine in THEIR way and THEIR pace without having any (mis)conceptions in my head previously. 
To a wannabe who might read this (might be a bit off the topic): Learning included traditional cooking, making frybread, learning to fix a broken tyre on a truck in the middle of nowhere on the Rez, how to tell whether clouds will bring storm or not, it included learning (that was a hard and long term one) how to deal with drunk men and how to work together and comfort each other with other Rez women to minimize the hard consequences of alcoholism and domestic violence, when and how to offer help so that I'd be of any use and not just annoying... and No, learning didn't include how to run ceremonies, nor any kind of "initiation". Yes, I was invited to some ceremonies, but not all of them, and that was because of the nature of the ceremony itself not because of some individual's decision or possession of the ceremony . And I'm still not adopted  or any more Indian than I was at that moment I stepped out of that old truck without door to the dry land of the Navajo Rez for the first time. The reality is what IS not what we might want it to be. 

[bls926]

Good post, Vida! Thank you for sharing that with us. There's definitely more to being Indian than the blood quantum. Yes, you might be racially Indian but that would be the extent of it. So many things you can't know unless you actually are part of the community.

A lot of times people think they can assume any identity they want. Yes, they may have one Indian ancestor who lived and died 100 years ago. However, this does not make you Indian. What about your other ancestors, the European, African, Asian ones? You can't pick one over the others. You need to honor all your ancestors. To honor one and ignore the others is to show disrespect for all of them.

[Paul123]

How about if I wear an "Kiss Me I'm Irish" tee shirt on St. Patty's day?

[earthw7]

As an enrolled member we see our people (enrolled member) who abuse our cultural ways as ones who live
off the reservation, they may dwell or visit in the urban areas where there people do not know
what they do. On the reservations here we all know each other and if you are doing or saying bad thing or things that are not true you will be confronted by the elders. So if there is a full-blood or enrolled member they usually are work, visiting or living in urban areas.

I hear all the time when people who maybe are descendant of a tribe say well full-blood or enrolled members do bad things too as their excuse.  As enrolled member we are responsible for our people.
The people who marry non-natives and go to europe out of there view of their people tend to become
more than what they are because their people are not there to keep them in check. We also have some of our people who travel overseas because people pay them and they tell them things just to make their money. Just like all these so called pipe keepers or shield keepers or whatever they called themselves.
People tell lies so much they believe them.
If you are a part of nation then you should be able to tell the people of your family and family name. If you don't know then you are not a part of the nation. We are family orienated people so if you don't know your family then you are not apart of the tribe.
Non-Native seem so straved for that center inside them they will listen to anyone even if they steal them blind.