Re: Kiesha Crowther - "Little Grandmother"

[Defend the Sacred]

I'm seconding nemesis here, Crescent. Many of us got into this work because we were fooled, lied to, exploited. Or we saw loved ones harmed. Welcome to the team :-)

If the frauds, con artists and exploiters weren't skilled at what they do, they wouldn't have any followers. You weren't stupid, you were being open-hearted and trusting; you were being vulnerable. Vulnerability is a beautiful thing when we open up to those who have earned our trust, and they open up to us as well. Humans need that deep trust and intimacy in our lives. But frauds, con artists and predators exploit that vulnerability. They push people to trust them when trust has not been earned. They give the impression that they are also being vulnerable, but they are seducing people with lies and exploiting their desire to be emotionally intimate and spiritually bonded. The fault is not yours, it's Crowther's and those who make excuses for her.

[Freija]

Crescent, you´ve done a great thing coming in here and clearing things up. And don´t feel stupid. Just like Kathryn says - these guys are extremely clever at what they do!

I was also fooled many years ago. It was just my gutfeeling preventing me from participating in the faked ceremonies. However, I promoted a New Age group and their faked leader, who told us he was half Lakota, half Cherokee and sometimes half Navajo. (There were many halves in that guy!!). I even donated money. But rather then burying myself in a big hole when I realized what I had done (and yes, I was so deeply ashamed and embarassed afterwards!) I decided to spend time with Native communities and do whatever it took to fight against the cultural and spiritual exploitation.

So - nothing bad that doesn´t bring something good (which is a saying in my country  )
Welcome to the club, Crescent!

[Saga]

I actually liked Kiesha's message too. Never donated or joined ceremonies tho, since I don't think that spirituality is about money... Anyway, there is lots of good in her talks and lots with what I don't agree at all... But for me the thing I dislike the most is the fact that she doesn't seem to work as her true self. It is unethical to back up the message with claims of "recognitions" if there are none and to pretend to be indigenous and use "indigenous" teachings to get into the business... blah. As I wrote into my introduction in new member section, I am very interested in authentic cultures and all kinds of stuff and never really thought before how wrong it is to make false claims... i do now. In a way I'd hope that people would ditch most of the Kiesha's message and keep the good parts (not the "shutting the mind" part) and don't get deeper in the tribe stuff. It has kind of nice community feeling tho, but if the whole thing has started from a lie and someone is gathering her own "tribe" together... It has a bit too cultish feeling around it...

[Peasant]

Thanks for the heads up, i have indeed learned from this and it feels good now to warn others about her behavior. I've gotten some positive messages as well from other people who have also been reading newagefraud.org, they think the same way about this whole situation.

Yeah, not everything she says is made up. I think she wouldn't ever have gotten so far into this if she wouldn't have any intuition or other sensitivities, or experienced strange events. But some group, which John Kimmey (warned repeatedly by the Hopi nation for falsely acting as a spokesperson - he's sitting next to her the Return of the Ancestors video) and probably also Adam Yellowbird are part of, have one day called her with this 'all explaining story' that the Grandfathers (who are they?) have been watching her grow up and taught her all kinds of supernatural lessons. So that she can now share her wisdom. This must have sounded so beautiful to her, an opportunity to shine and to heal the world.

I haven't got evidence to support this but i'm very certain that she has been in contact with these people before they called her. Her behavior of making mountains out of molehills and looking away from/discarding any evidence that goes against her beliefs (including those about herself) exactly fits the gap that makes this story about the phone call seem so magical. She never explicitly mentions that she has never been in contact with them before... if that would be the case, i think she definitely would mention it in every talk or interview. That's how she is.

Also, how beautiful is this story that when she was 8 years old, she was picked up out of the crowd during a ceremony of her mother's tribe (it's still uncertain who her mother is and which tribe this is) by the leaders of the ceremony, and they were talking a language she could not understand. Now she thinks that they were talking about how she would become a shaman later, she's absolutely certain about it. The point is; the 'tribe' that made the phone call when she was 30 years old is not the same 'Sioux Salish' tribe; it's the New Age group where John Kimmey is part of, playing a wise old down-to-earth elder. Who told her that those ceremony leaders prophesied that she would become a shaman?

I think she told herself... or perhaps someone from her new group. If this ceremony really happened, and in case they actually even prophesied something, it would be that she'd exploit all these indigenous tribes by making false claims about being recognized by them, amongst many other things. I have to get this out of my system now. I'll be active again on these forums some other time, i think i've also got some info and insight to share about other people discussed in these forums. If they are for real, they should pass the test, simple as that...

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Crescent I agree with all Nemesis and Kathryn and Frieja have said here.

Saga, I don't agree. It's not about if there is good in her talks or if someone
agrees or doesn't agree. I can't seem to find words to express what I feel of
this thought of yours re Crowther and her good messages.

Anyone with a modicum of common sense can figure out what is a good thing
for people to think about or believe and deliver such as messages to people..
To me, it is like the sales man offering what sounds good just to get the buyers
to the sales floor, from there they can sell them more.

[Saga]

Think I didn't get my point through. And I am not able to explain what I am trying to say. Ofc it is not good to follow lies and get all into illusions. It's bit like letting someone to interpret bible to you, if you wont use your own brains at all, anyone can tell you what to do, which is why the people who base all on lies shouldn't be lt close to vulnerable people... But like in bible, some of the very basic values without the unnecessary mambojambo, Kiesha did get something right, which is why people listen. Everyone feels lost and someone talks emotionally about love and family, great, lets go to that... Just wish that people would keep that love and family in mind and leave the "leaders" and "tribes" and actually do something for their lives. I am not into dissing the whole idea of miracles, but I actually doubted her background and the tribe thing from the beginning, it doesn't feel right at all for someone to start gathering tribe that doesn't do anything else than dwell in it own awesomeness...

I want to ask one question btw and I hope it is not so... Is this forum for looking for the frauds, or is this for dissing all the spirituality? I read some topics and at some topics it seems that if someone says that he/she believes in something, what ever it is, he/she will be blamed for being gullible. Even if it was a "salespeech" there were enough good in that for people to buy it. And that doesn't mean that I would support her actions. If someone is giving ANY kind of guidance to anyone else, they need to do that totally different way and let people find their own answers anyway, imho...

[Saga]

Oh and btw, about Kiesha's stories... Even I would have stories like that to share, if I wanted. Just needs a bit exaggeration and making natural things magical... I actually could do that pretty easy, I have the right kind of stories to build on and some writing skills... speaking is something I should learn tho, lol. Hey guys, here's your future fraud! :p

[Freija]

Oh and btw, about Kiesha's stories... Even I would have stories like that to share, if I wanted. Just needs a bit exaggeration and making natural things magical... I actually could do that pretty easy, I have the right kind of stories to build on and some writing skills... speaking is something I should learn tho, lol. Hey guys, here's your future fraud! :p

Oh, I do that ALL the time! In my books! (fiction).
It´s a great way to canalize the imagination and you can legally be totally crazy because everyone KNOWS it´s made up.

Or...should I say...most people know. I do get the occasional guys phoning me saying they know for sure it is not fiction. "Yes, it is! I made it up!" I say. "No, you didn´t!" they tell me. Well, whatever....And I do have the occasional reader phoning me saying that one of my made up characters are standing in her house. Or someone who has seen mythological persons from my books (I sometimes write about the Nordic Gods) walking down their street. Not to mention when they go hiking trying to find them....  It´s bizarre at times! 

[Saga]

Well, i like to think "magically" too occasionally, but I know at the same time that if I see and interpret something as a magical, I do that consciously, because I want magic in my life and I can just as well interpret things in non-magical way. Human imagination is endless, you actually can form new worlds with it... unfortunately mostly just inside this one.

[Defend the Sacred]

I want to ask one question btw and I hope it is not so... Is this forum for looking for the frauds, or is this for dissing all the spirituality?

Responding in tangent thread: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2955

[Superdog]

I'd just like to make a person observation that Crowther, her followers and a lot of us in this discussion have seemed to miss.  One of the main philosophies Crowther's using right now is this concept she calls the Great I Am.  This concept at its root....as she's explained it, is actually the opposite of local indigenous religions/philosophies/ways of life around the world.  Her "Great I Am" concept actually more resembles one of the main viewpoints Judeo-Christianity who believe we're born in the image of God and we're inherently good at birth and that goodness is ours to lose.  Up to the point of the emergence of Judaism in world history, the world's oldest religions/philosophies preached the exact opposite of that.  Buddhism would tell you that life is suffering, in Hinduism you're trying to find a way out of the cycle of reincarnation etc.  Crowther claims to be a representative for Sioux/Salish people.  I'm not Lakota, but whenever I see Lakotas pray it usually involves some self-chastizing....a realization that you a pitiful being in comparison to the Great Spirit.  Don't take my words as gospel....only someone well-educated in Lakota ways can tell you the real deal about that, but that observation is the counter to being a "Great I Am".  In fact, many indigenous religions all around the world have beliefs that revolve around not believing Crowther's philosophy, but believing to be the opposite. 

That fact alone, for those that wish to follow "shamanism" in any way you define it should be enough to convince you that she doesn't know what she's talking about and in fact, she's just telling people positive things about themselves.

Superdog

[Saga]

You are right actually, altho she does include "we are all one" in that too and mix little bit praying in the soup after telling that there is no god...

Actually, what I have read about shamanism, the shamans in one book, where they were interviewed, not to tell about how ceremonies are done, but about their role. They mostly said that they are servants and bridge from humans to spirits and that you need to be very careful with the power you have and you need to be humble and not to lift yourself above others and so on. And some even said that it is immoral to ask money from the services because the spirits would then back off and draw the power away, altho you can accept the gifts people want to give you from their own free will... Can't remember what sort of shamans or wise men these were tho, it's a long time when I read the book... And what I have read about indigenous people before, community and everything outside you is more important than you in many cases and gods and spirits walk beside you and you ask help and guidance all the time really and there is lots of honoring and respect and humbleness involved in general. When thinking about it, even my own country's old ways were about that...

So yes, the message is almost all new age. Anyone can perform a ritual that looks like authentic one btw, you can copy some pagan ritual and add some necessary accessories and there you go...

[Freija]

Superdog - those were my thoughts, too, when I heard her message here in Sweden.
A lot of "I, I, I...."
It´s all taylor-made for a non-Native audience, especially those with low self worth, since I believe that if you feel good about yourself and your life, you wouldn´t get sucked in to these kind of "cults".

And therein lies the paradox: people I meet wanting to "become Indian" often think this is some kind of selfempowering culture. (Yes, ONE culture). Telling them that Native cultures are all about community and family, helping out in your neighbourhood etc., they look at me with disbelief. It´s quite often those duties they would like to escape from.

[Peasant]

I wanted to leave all this be for a while, but it has been brought to my attention that the tribeofmanycolors.net website administrator Veetkam has published my real-life name and the city where i live, in a locked topic on his forums. I used to be registered with my real life name there, and the city where i live is accessible to people who are in my friends list there. But it's still an unwanted breach of privacy (by a website and forum administrator; can you believe it?). I've sent him a message kindly asking him to remove it, and of course he wouldn't, as i received some hysterical message in return. This perfectly shows what kind of a man he really is.

This is the message that he's put out to the world:

To Mitzie and Crystal:
Just to let you Clear with whom you have to do:

Crescent = Real life name - City is a active colaborator and Information-stringer - he brings names of assistants etc. and more informations to this Inquisition-Forum - But for themselve he does Hide his Identity behind the pseudonym : Crescent - as he changed it also here - because of the reason that he does not want his Identity is so open reachable in the Internet.

Thats a freedom he has - of course - and its our freedom to take notice what he really does

This is the accolade he earned there from the "Main-Administrator"
To Crescent: I am glad you are here helping us do research, and helping alert others to what goes on in Crowther's groups.

I expected something like this to happen. He has actually published private messages before, sent to him by someone who used to coordinate all the translators. There also used to be another Facebook group for the 'Tribe of many colors' which he basically overpowered by making all kinds of allegations, just to be in control of everything (from what i've heard). I've actually defended him in this topic, saying that he is not a conman, that he made the tribeofmanycolors.net forums for free and is not getting any money out of this. I've done lots of translation work for his site and this is what i get in return, along with lots of angry messages. I've only sent him friendly and peaceful messages.

I've already received a message from someone else on those forums who says he really doesn't agree with what Veetkam is doing. This is only working against him and against Kiesha Crowther. The only information that i'm putting out in this topic on NAFPS, can be found by anyone, by watching her videos, listening to her interviews and reading her messages. Yet another inconsistency in Little Grandmother's story: if she can sense people's 'energy signature' so well, she (or her group) would not leave the ownership and maintenance of such a website in the hands of a man who 'lowers his energy' all the time and is not 'changing the channel'. A wannabe spiritual man.

If he's trying to intimidate me, he's failing horribly. Can you believe this guy is like 40 years older than me? If he is so steady in his beliefs why is he so much concerned with what i'm writing here?


One last edit . I want to finish this by quoting a message someone posted on Facebook today, which i think is a perfect and very straightforward example of where this Tribe stuff is going.

Hi Tribe...Imagine Our Shamans relief, when You quit all personal acknowledgements about Your presence...And not Being present !
Only by passing on her mesage, and fullfill Our Primary Purpose by bringing one more person to Our Tribe, especially if You Are adequate in presence to the Gathering...
Remember You are never inadequate of Recovery by spreading - Our Concept -
I´m Yours...
- thx -
- O -

[Saga]

Did I already say that the person who wrote in the tribe forum about the need of transparency in the background and all... her IP seems to be blocked from entering in the tribe site at all now? (at least she says that everything else works like a charm but that site says forbidden to enter the server) The one that did write that The only information that Crescent is putting out in this topic on NAFPS, can be found by anyone, by watching her videos, listening to her interviews and reading her messages in the forum.