Re: Kiesha Crowther - "Little Grandmother"

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Of course not Crescent.. that would be way too easy for someone to see and call her out on. Even tho most would never have heard of Arvol, all it would take is one person to see that, verify it, and then challenge her on it.

Most frauds are not too stupid in covering their tracks.. they cannot stay in business if it is easily debunked.   

[Broken Arrow]

Hello people from NAFPS

This is my first post.
I wanted to share a first hand report about Keisha Crowther, who this week (october 27 and 28) did three public speakings in a small church in the town of Zeist, the Netherlands. Three times a full house, so all in all Crowther attracted some 1200 people, who paid 39 euro (54 dollars) to see her.

How did I get there? Someone suggested my friend and me to go and see her, because Crowther really would be something special: a real American shaman, etc.
I have to admit I didn’t do that much research (only saw one or two YouTube movies), so I wasn’t aware that the NAFPS already had this thread about her being a fraud. No, me and my friends really believed Crowther was the real thing, so we went to see her in the hope of experiencing something special.

And her public appearance definitely WAS something special…It’s almost frightening to see this young woman talk about love, opening up, creating a better world for all of us, etcetera. Actually quite convincing at first, especially as she even broke down and cried some three times during that night - completely overtaken by her feelings of love and empathy for all living things, mother earth, etc etc. (and recognising this Dutch church filled with people from a vision she says she had in her youth).
But when Crowther returned after a break her message of love took a different turn, making me and my friends increasingly uncomfortable. It started with her speaking about Atlantis, then the Crystal Skulls (who she says are going to be really important soon), the upcoming polar shift (‘It’s already happening’), UFO-sightings, aliens (they are here, talking to Crowther all the time – and where do they hide? in the bodies of the mentally disabled..) and how the US-government yearly spends 1 billion dollars to cover up the fact that our earth is visited by aliens in UFO’s…
In only 45 minutes my mood changed from being (kind of) open minded to utter depression. What a load of crap! So, we (my friends and I) all walked out before the end of the night, convinced that this woman is completely crazy. (strangely, most of the audience was really impressed by her).

The following day I decided to do the proper research and found your website and this enlightning thread ? 
I also found this site: http://www.niburunews.com/
It’s (partly) in Dutch and has articles and videos about all the things Crowther talked about in the second part of her ‘performance’.  It has a glowing review of Crowther’s visit to the Netherlands and also mentions that the guy who runs this site had the chance to meet Crowther earlier that day and talk about the themes on his website. Maybe this inspired her to mention all this stuff the night we attended.
Anyway: I’m glad I was able to find out myself that Crowther is the kind of false prophet that possibly belongs in a mental hospital. Yet she’s quite convincing in the way she presents herself as a nice girl who’s only here to bring her ‘important message’ to the world.
It’s all quite spooky actually..

[Saga]

Those "weird" things you mentioned also got me doubting more and more... First videos didn't had that sorts of things so much, so was totally taken, only few uncomfortable moments there... In the next ones I noticed that the "message" is quite different than I thought. I haven't seen her talking "live", but all the speeches available in video or audio do show how good "show-woman" she is.

The last thing I needed to take a step back was the fact that she mentioned something that only those who are awakened to "be the love" and see things her way are going to get in this better world/dimension/what ever. I don't need that crap, I get enough of that with christianity, which isn't my kind of religion either...  And to be honest, that kind of remarks in anything else than main religions make me think of suicide cults, especially with aliens mixed there too. Might have seen too many documents... Think there was one cult that waited for aliens to come to get them and did group suicide to enter the space ship or something...

I am bit worried about the people following her, even if she is harmless and just lives in her own illusion, those people will take a big hit because of it at some point and then be again totally without a direction.

[Peasant]

Thanks for your post, Broken Arrow. Can't believe so many people came to see her! I thought there might be like 500 people total, and even that would have been a very large amount of cash. 20 euros would still be expensive but not too extreme, but so many people paying 39 euros? That's just crazy. The total intake of those two days would be 46800 euros. Of course the church has to be rent, the people who organized the event have to get paid as well, there's travel costs and all kinds of things but no matter how you look at it, that's a shitload of money.

I already thought she wouldn't have anything new to talk about. Everything that you've mentioned and everything that this niburu site says; she's talked about it before. And it's all derived from other sources, of which some are very questionable. I think some of the strange stuff she talks about is true but many other public speakers talk about those things as well... and a lot of other things she talks about are pure bs. On her FAQ, her assistant says that these speeches and workshops are not important but are just for the people who want something extra. But i'm wondering how many people read that and realize that. I donated 50 euros to her once because at the time she had me convinced that something hugely important was going on & that she was in the middle of it... she must have had all these other people convinced as well.

[Freija]

That's just crazy. The total intake of those two days would be 46800 euros. Of course the church has to be rent, the people who organized the event have to get paid as well, there's travel costs and all kinds of things but no matter how you look at it, that's a shitload of money.

Having organised speakingtours myself - like the European NAFPS tour with Al - I find this "shitload of money" questionable. But there again, it depends where the money goes. The only costly thing is the travellingcosts. Accommodation will easily be provided by people who want to support "the mission". And I have never paid for a hall - you can always come up with a good deal or use schools, museums, libraries, whatever. There are no big marketingcosts. In this case they are mostly using internet. If you are doing what you are doing for a good cause, there are plenty of ways to minimize the costs. And I think it would be much easier to find cheap halls, accommodation etc. for Kiesha´s speaking tour than for the anti-exploitation tours that I used to fix. Sad, but true.

I definitely think that speakers should be paid a decent fee. However, the speakers I have organised tours for, like Al and Arvol, have given most of their money to charity or to elders on the rez. And all the people helping out with bookings, planning, tickets etc did it for free. Again, maybe Kiesha is donating her part of the money to charity. And if she is a true NA medicineperson, I am sure she wouldn´t mind transparancy. Someone should ask her.....Follow the money and you will find out who is a genuinely spiritual person .

[educatedindian]

....Actually quite convincing at first, especially as she even broke down and cried some three times during that night - completely overtaken by her feelings of love and empathy for all living things, mother earth, etc etc. (and recognising this Dutch church filled with people from a vision she says she had in her youth).
But when Crowther returned after a break her message of love took a different turn, making me and my friends increasingly uncomfortable. It started with her speaking about Atlantis, then the Crystal Skulls (who she says are going to be really important soon), the upcoming polar shift (‘It’s already happening’), UFO-sightings, aliens (they are here, talking to Crowther all the time – and where do they hide? in the bodies of the mentally disabled..) and how the US-government yearly spends 1 billion dollars to cover up the fact that our earth is visited by aliens in UFO’s…

The whole breaking down crying during a speech to impress your audience...that's the kind of cheap tactic I've never seen done by a Native elder or leader, though many get very emotional during speeches. You know who does that in the US, who Crowther probably imitated? TV evangelists, fundamentalist Christian preachers, and self improvement gurus.

Every other thing you list is a hodgepodge of every Nuage and conspiracy nonsense idea on the net. I don't know of a single Native leader who believes in them, beyond a few elderly people who are thought of as a bit eccentric and humored if they hold onto even one of these beliefs, much less dozens of these. She certainly proved she knows nothing of either Salish or Lakota beliefs or traditions.

Like Annika (Freija) points out, she and others helped me out quite a bit on that speaking tour of Europe. I slept on their couches, cots, in their guestrooms and living rooms, and spoke at everywhere from universities to public meeting halls, usually charging about 5 euros. And we still made enough to break even and to keep the Albuquerque Indian center open the rest of the year.

So let me issue yet another challenge to Crowther and her supporters:

Where are the tens of thousands of dollars she's making going? Those three nights alone made over 60 grand.

Show your expenses. Be open and honest about where the money's going.

Name any charities and causes the money is given to (if any.)

No vague nonsense about "helping spread her message" or "helping Natives" or "helping peace." Show everyone in detail, just what, exactly.

Until then, you just look like a shameless hustler.

[educatedindian]

We may have found out where the false claim that Crowther works with or is endorsed by Looking Horse came from.

I got an account saying Nan Morton of a Dutch site called Fairway is the one making that claim. And in this section of the site she makes the claim to have hosted Looking Horse and others, esp those 13 Grandmothers that seem to be everywhere.

Babelfish translation. Anyone speaking Dutch please correct anything wrong.

-------------
http://www.fairway-trainingen.nl/HTML/nieuwsmain.html
Our foundation is a nonprofit organisation, which is dedicated to world peace and busy keeps himself with healing, by keeping healingcircles in nature, both on the country and on water. Visit the Internet site of the foundation for information on healingcircles in other countries. www.ooarch.com/wisdom

Context: Nan and Neel Morton the Wisdom or the Grandmothers have set up foundation. In the past twenty-five years them both LEADERs and participants have been at spiritual, cultural exchanges concerning the complete world. They share their helderziende and healing talents for the usefulness of whole. For this reason they are very respected and them have been adopted by domestic American and Australian Aborigine descend. They with tribe seniors in Norths, central and south America, Africa, Australia, Canada, Mexico, the Philippines, China, Europe have worked etc. Them has been selected be possible travel as ambassadors for peace and they cooperate closely with Lakota-, Nakota- and the Dakota Native American Chief Arvol Looking Horse, Lakota Medicine Chief Looks For Buffalo, Hopi Grandmother Constance Mirabal, Tewa Grandfather Ernest Mirabal, Maya Grandmother Flordemayo, Navajo Grandfather Chester Kahn, Mahatma Gandhi' s for the Ela Gandhi, the Grandmothers Rita Blumenstein and Marie Mead Alaska and Grandmother Auntie Dawn van Hawaï and with others still a lot of.

Nan and Neel have been called their own spiritual insights and talents and those of the Grandmothers to share with people of the four wind directions and them do that on and humour-full manner relax. Both the honour and the responsibility the saint has been possible pour carry channupahs (peace and gebedspijpen) and water during the initipi (sweat hut) ceramics. Neel are architect and apply Earth-Friendly, (environment-friendly) architecture in the hillock landscape of Texas. The natural surroundings are always part of the healingcircles. Nan are the eigenaresse of Art & Soul music, healingcentrum and art gallery where she gives also courses and lead healingcircles. And its name is peace In this notebook Nan Morton concerning tell its travel, the Healing and Peacecircles and what unfolds itself there all round around. The notebook is order by means of: info@fairway-trainingen.nl or telephonically: 072-5600279 and during the Healing to keep and Peacecircles.

[Saga]

I took brief look to both sites, english and dutch (altho I don't speak dutch either, so can't say too much about it, only what google translation gives out) and at least in her sites, there is no mention about Little Grandmother at all. All those other people mentioned are there ofc as well as mention about their projects:

"Many projects are under way within the Wisdom of the Grandmother's Foundation. To list a few...

# Holistic healing progams offered worldwide to help heal mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, & social diseases.
# Coats, shoes, propane gas and food drive for the Oglala Lakota Nation of South Dakota.
# Indigenous Peoples World Concert & Dance Tour
# Future World Gatherings: Greek Isles, Viet Nam, Mexico.
# Teachings and ceremony offered to groups by appointment in Texas and other states. (Min. of ten participants)
# Marketing and distribution of art, ceremonial items and music of indigenous tribes and those dedicated to the healing arts.
# Group and personal channeled readings; hands-on healing; breath therapy; shamanic journeying and soul retrieval by appointment.
# Documentary film & video projects to preserve the wisdom of the Elders and those who have walked before us.
# Computer based educational programs for remote areas of Alaska, Africa & Australia.
# Environmentally / Earth-friendly architecture. Residential and commercial design offering sound, attractive structures for those in need."

I get sometimes little confused with all the grandmothers, the ones mentioned here are from the 13 indigenous grandmothers, right? Since there is also the channeled grandmothers and "normal" grandmothers around sharing their wisdom. :p

[Peasant]

I can't find mentions of Kiesha Crowther either, though i don't know if they've mentioned this in meetings or something.

[Peasant]

(and recognising this Dutch church filled with people from a vision she says she had in her youth).

There's a new video of a speech in Zurich, Switzerland where she says exactly the same kind of thing. I've watched it for 90 seconds but am never going to look at it again to avoid further brain damage.

http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/66SdG1/www.vimeo.com/16812713
Starting at 30 seconds in.

Wow Kiesha, are you really this psychic? You're like superwoman.


Also have to add that her voice gave me the chills. The apparent enthusiasm is gone, she talks like a robot now.

[Superdog]

(and recognising this Dutch church filled with people from a vision she says she had in her youth).

There's a new video of a speech in Zurich, Switzerland where she says exactly the same kind of thing. I've watched it for 90 seconds but am never going to look at it again to avoid further brain damage.

http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/66SdG1/www.vimeo.com/16812713
Starting at 30 seconds in.

Wow Kiesha, are you really this psychic? You're like superwoman.


Also have to add that her voice gave me the chills. The apparent enthusiasm is gone, she talks like a robot now.

She talks such bs.

"When I was 30 I received a call from the indigenous nations of North America and an elder told me it was time to become a shaman, a wisdomkeeper"

Gawd what a lie...at best a sincere misrepresentation.

I wouldn't doubt that someone called her and told her that (although that sounds dubious even of itself), but the idea that there is a collective "Indigenous Nations of North America" plays upon that old stereotype that we're somehow all the same and IT'S NOT TRUE!

Just to reiterate in case someone is browsing by and reading this thread and not a member of the board

There are over 500 different Native American tribes across the US and Canada each with cultures that are tribal specific and communal and DO NOT do things as a "collective".  Especially when it comes to spiritual matters as spirituality is once again communal, tribal specific and often tied to the land and is different on a case to case basis. 

She DOES NOT represent any indigenous nation in North America let alone all of them.

Superdog

[nemesis]

I took brief look to both sites, english and dutch (altho I don't speak dutch either, so can't say too much about it, only what google translation gives out) and at least in her sites, there is no mention about Little Grandmother at all. All those other people mentioned are there ofc as well as mention about their projects:

"Many projects are under way within the Wisdom of the Grandmother's Foundation. To list a few...

# Holistic healing progams offered worldwide to help heal mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, & social diseases.
# Coats, shoes, propane gas and food drive for the Oglala Lakota Nation of South Dakota.
# Indigenous Peoples World Concert & Dance Tour
# Future World Gatherings: Greek Isles, Viet Nam, Mexico.
# Teachings and ceremony offered to groups by appointment in Texas and other states. (Min. of ten participants)
# Marketing and distribution of art, ceremonial items and music of indigenous tribes and those dedicated to the healing arts.
# Group and personal channeled readings; hands-on healing; breath therapy; shamanic journeying and soul retrieval by appointment.
# Documentary film & video projects to preserve the wisdom of the Elders and those who have walked before us.
# Computer based educational programs for remote areas of Alaska, Africa & Australia.
# Environmentally / Earth-friendly architecture. Residential and commercial design offering sound, attractive structures for those in need."

I get sometimes little confused with all the grandmothers, the ones mentioned here are from the 13 indigenous grandmothers, right? Since there is also the channeled grandmothers and "normal" grandmothers around sharing their wisdom. :p

Just thinking aloud

A lot of the above activities fall into a kind of grey economy whereby people pay cash or can invest cash in various projects

I'm not saying that this is what is happening, but sometimes organised criminals use these kinds of newage grey economies for money laundering.  There are so many intangible assets involved and cash moving around that it is easy to draw up fake accounts re revenue streams. 

As I said before, I am not saying that this is what is happening here but I think it might be worth considering as a possibility.

[Saga]

@Nemesis : Yes, it is common in all of the charity things, to use it for money laundrying or to just hoard money for the people who have build the organization... But what ever is the case with this, it seems to be separate from Kiesha.

I watched some of the new videos Crescent mentioned and it is true, she does sound like a robot... I couldn't help thinking some self-hypnosis cd when listening to her and then I started to feel sick... The feeling is gone, it is monotonic repeating on what ever she had said before. Not to mention that she looks drained and tired, or just bit weird in some videos. There's videos from Zürich but also from Sweden or Denmark or something...

What actually bothers me most at the moment is that she has started fear mongering with ecological subjects (guilt has always been good way to get attention), but still says that all you need to do is just BE love... which is more or less the biggest conflict to my ecologically conscious mind. Love mother earth, but by all means, continue living as you do and kill the rest of it. :p Not thinking about it will miraculously fix it, yay! Not that I'd be against sending the love to earth and humans, but I think that someone needs to actually act too, if any change is wanted...

Also she has taken ALL the worst theories on what is happening on earth and spread those now as absolute truths. And ofc starbeings are going to save us.

And @Superdog: Nice reminder, just wishing that more from the tribe would read this... Altho, they are taught not to judge and not to think with their brains, so...

[Peasant]

I couldn't help but clicking on another video in hopes that she says another stupid thing, because i really want people to see through her lies. And yes she did another stupid thing. She's deceiving her followers, keeping them on a leash. I couldn't watch for more than 2 minutes until i literally got a headache.

http://www.vimeo.com/16830337

This is an excerpt from one of her talks where she talks about 2012. Starting at 00:55 she talks about the Mayans and a minute later she mentions grandfather Alejandro. Now this grandfather Alejandro Cirilo Perez recently said in a pay-to-watch broadcast (at https://en.esoguru.com/2012-and-the-maya ), which really tens of thousands of people have watched, that all these New Age pundits who claim to know the Mayan calendar have got it wrong, and that there will not be some kind of 'shift' in 2012. It's all misinterpretations. It's hard to find the video elsewhere, they get deleted all the time because of copyright infringements, though i'm sure that if you spend some time searching you'll find it somewhere, for free. But here's a review which i think is good: http://jlnavarro.blogspot.com/2010/08/wandering-wolfs-esotv-webcast-message.html

But yet, she still mentions him as if he's a key proponent of the 2012 movement. She's quoted him many times before. Oh look, Authentic Indigenous Wise Old Tribal Shaman Elder Wandering Wolf is Mayan and he has some wise words to say so i will quote him (and conveniently leave out his words that oppose the Maya 2012 construct) and everyone will believe me.

[Saga]

from fb under photos of Kiesha, "follower's" theory:

"A dream-message from the future? I was just watching Martin Keitel's new movie "Cereal Wormholes 2", where he tells at 29:30 about his dream-message in August of 2002 from the crop artists themselves, instructing him how to decode the spiral disc drawn at Crabwood a few days earlier (which he did not know about yet)..."
The woman from his dream was of Caucasian appearance but wears native American clothing. "A woman starts to talk. She says we need to listen to the Mayans. It is very important. The dream continues. I am with a group of people, and feel connected to those people. We are discussing how children will be prepared for an upcoming spiritual change in the world, but how governments won't support it."
I was just looking at Martin's new movie, since he is a colleague at studying crop circles, when suddenly I thought: "Hey, I know who that woman might be. She looks and sounds just like Kiesha Crowther!" Kiesha is a friend of Don Alejandro, the current Mayan wisdom-keeper in Guatemala. She is also a big fan of crop circles. In one of her videos, she says "white men in discs will soon return from the stars".
Yet how did she send a dream message to Martin in 2002, when she did not even become "Little Grandmother" until 2007? Another character in Martin's dream was Quetzalcoatl, whom the Hopis call Pahana. What if Quetzalcoatl really does return in late 2012, as a white man in a disc from the stars? Surely he will meet Kiesha, who is now a respected leader of several native American tribes. Plus he will have advanced spacetime technology as used to make crop pictures, which Martin calls "cereal wormholes".
So here is my idea: maybe Quetzalcoatl and Kiesha will meet sometime after 2012, and use his magical technology to send a psychic message back in time to Martin Keitel in 2002? We just saw a time-traveller with a mobile phone in one of Charlie Chaplin's old movies, so let's not dismiss this crazy idea too quickly! It has the ring of truth.
Best wishes to you, Kiesha, if this text and slide somehow reach you in the year 2010. And always remember that "the past is prelude"....

(Also in comments:) "A lot of people have begun to post personal criticisms of Kiesha on internet chat rooms. That is a good sign, because as Jim Watson once said while attending a scientific meeting, "If all of those people are getting angry at what the speaker is saying, then there must be something to it!" Watson, after his discovery of the correct DNA model in 1953, became very familiar with human egos."

I am so sad that people really think this way, especially the way the comment suggests. Not all of the critic in the world is there just because of the person is revealing "hidden truths". Guess this is a mind set of conspiracy theorist who wants to believe everything he/she has chosen to be the truth.

Wont comment the theory, otherwise than... now the looking for meanings is under full work then. :p

Edit: under that thing was also link to this site as an example of people who speak ill of her.