Wayne

[Wayne]

Thank you critter for clarifying.
As you can see, we differ in opinion, that's fine.
But what if people came to your door and asked for your help?
I mean several times a day, every day of the week.
You would probably either send them away, or quit your job and pay your bills from helping people.
Having read your posts, you would most probably do the first.
Because if you wouldn't, you would have no more time left to do the things you need to do.
That's what happened to me, i needed to do something and i couldn't get myself to send people "on their way", so i started asking something in return, starting with money.
The job i do..... i do part-time now, as i do with helping people.
I hope you understand where i'm coming from..... and i don't mean the Netherlands 

Many blessings,

Wayne

[Defend the Sacred]

Wayne, why are you here? What is it you're hoping to get out of participating in this forum?

I'm copying the current content of your intro below, as I see you've gone back to edit it since people started questioning you.

I'm Wayne i live in the Netherlands, but was born in the USA.
It is beleived, that i have some native american blood running trough my veins.
I'm appalled by the things some people do in respect to the native traditions.
I was lucky, to have had guidance by a native, who was a medicin-man.
He told me, i could use that same description for myself (medicinman).
I was proud to have become this far, so i used the name medicinman in order to be able to help more people.
I found out, that the use of this term attracted al lot of people and most of them wanted to know about the rituals and other sacred things of the natives.
I soon decided to change my denomination from medicinman to Nature-man (freely translated from dutch).
I do not use the sacred methodes for others anymore, instead i use the intention of it and made my own sort of rituals.
I explain to people, that i did receive the lessons, but that i'm not using them anymore.
This stipulates, that i was a "fraud", but my intentions were pure.
Nevertheless.... i was a fraud, since i was selling ceremonies (at the price it costs, so i made no profit).
Now i beleive, that i'm doing the things in the spirit of the great mystery, but i'm not selling native ceremonies anymore.
The sacred ceremonies are safe with me now.
I'm looking forward to hear your view on this.

May you all be blessed.

Wayne

I was tought by a Lakota.
He passed away last year at the age of 70. wich i heard is kind of old for a Lakota, or any native.
Now you probably would want a name..... his name was Kevin Bluecloud and he lived near Nowata, OK.
That's all he told me about himself.

Did you pay Kevin Bluecloud to teach you ceremony? Did you meet others in his family or community? Did they say you could call yourself a medicine man?

[Wayne]

You are not very trusting are you?
I only edited some typo's!!!

instead i use the intention of it and made

was

instead use the intention of it and made

for example. I only added an "I".
That one i remember, the others were similar typo's!!!!
Not everyone edits their posts to hide something!!!!
I find this very offensive.
I never had anyone stating it this way and i visit boards for over 6 years already!
I apologized in an other topic for my words....... i believe it is your turn now.

Many blessings,

Wayne

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

you ask me a direct question when i have stated i have nothing more i can add to say. and the situation you impose is not likely.. not unless you advertise in some way and self proclaim.. and i am no one and really, i do not own anything of this nature, there are no promises or guarantees, so i doubt anyone would be pounding on my door. if they did, i'd consider it fairly rude.

i'm not a "medicine" person, i'm not anything but a person in the world who helps when it is evident to try. that is all i am. and i personally would be wary of any such self proclaimed 'medicine' person who has (allows) people pounding on their door several times a day. who gives permission to pound on someones door.. ?

to answer your question.. i would simply move with no forwarding address.

[Wayne]

Thank you for your answer critter.
Moving without a forwarding adres is a way to go in the states, but not in the Netherlands.
It is simply not permitted in the Netherlands.
And the pounding on the door is also calls on the telephone and online contact, i used it as a metaphore.

Many blessings,

Wayne

[Smart Mule]

I'm Wayne i live in the Netherlands, but was born in the USA.
It is beleived, that i have some native american blood running trough my veins.

Hi Wayne.  What Nation do you believe you may be related to?  Why?

I'm appalled by the things some people do in respect to the native traditions.

Me too.

I was lucky, to have had guidance by a native, who was a medicin-man.
He told me, i could use that same description for myself (medicinman).
I was proud to have become this far, so i used the name medicinman in order to be able to help more people.

It takes much more than 15 years of intermittent contact with a possible indigenous person to become a medicine person.

I found out, that the use of this term attracted al lot of people and most of them wanted to know about the rituals and other sacred things of the natives.

How did you deal with this when it would occur?

I soon decided to change my denomination from medicinman to Nature-man (freely translated from dutch).

Oh.  What does a Nature-man do?

I do not use the sacred methodes for others anymore, instead i use the intention of it and made my own sort of rituals.

Could you please explain using the intention of something?  I’ve heard this before but I really don’t understand exactly what it means. 

I explain to people, that i did receive the lessons, but that i'm not using them anymore.
This stipulates, that i was a "fraud", but my intentions were pure.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.  I’m not sure that I would call you a fraud, I would think it would be more like grossly misinformed.

Nevertheless.... i was a fraud, since i was selling ceremonies (at the price it costs, so i made no profit).

It  doesn’t cost anything to do ceremony.  In your conversations with others here you attempted to validate compensation for something gifted by Creator for the People.  Help out with gas?  Sure.  Provide them with a cozy place to sleep and have them at your table for meals should they stay with you?  Sure.  But compensation for time?  Nope, it does not work that way and please do not be so full of yourself to say that it is okay.  It’s not.  Period.  End of sentence.  You and others cannot make that acceptable when it is NOT, I don’t care how you try to rationalize it.  It just isn’t done with actual factual traditional people.

Now i beleive, that i'm doing the things in the spirit of the great mystery, but i'm not selling native ceremonies anymore.

I am glad you are no longer selling something sacred.  But you have been defending the practice.

The sacred ceremonies are safe with me now.
I'm looking forward to hear your view on this.

May you all be blessed.

Wayne

I am not saying this to be mean or to hurt your feelings but honestly I don’t think you were taught sacred ceremony, because the gentleman who taught you did not teach you the very basics.

Sky

[Smart Mule]

But what if people came to your door and asked for your help?
I mean several times a day, every day of the week.
You would probably either send them away, or quit your job and pay your bills from helping people.
Having read your posts, you would most probably do the first.
Because if you wouldn't, you would have no more time left to do the things you need to do.
That's what happened to me, i needed to do something and i couldn't get myself to send people "on their way", so i started asking something in return, starting with money.
The job i do..... i do part-time now, as i do with helping people.
I hope you understand where i'm coming from..... and i don't mean the Netherlands 

Many blessings,

Wayne

Why were people seeking you out?  How did they find you?  Why was this multitude of people lacking in manners and common courtesy?

[Wayne]

I was told, that there is a little Lakota in me, but so little, that i will never claim to be part Lakota.
It is in the region of 1/16th.
Too far away to have any claim whatsoever.

I understand, now that it takes a lot more time and it is only for REAL natives, wich i am definitly not!
Altough i'm still proud to have Lakota ancestors, just as proud that i have Yewish ancestors and so on.
They are all equally important to me.

I dealt with people coming to me and wanted to know about some sacred things in the following matter:
Why do you want to know, you haven't been among natives.
I will teach you about yourself, if you let me.

Since i'm only aware of one nature-man.... myself, a nature-man is trying his best to live with nature.
Also is he learning everything he can about the nature surrounding him.
He is aware of all the nature around him and is respectfully using nature to help himself and others.

Using the intention of something is also not easy to explain, but i will give it a try.
Please don't bite me on examples.....
Say, that i would want to do a sweatlodge, i would experience a sweatlodge and ask questions about it afterwards, so i can form a picture in my mind about what the purpose is of the sweatlodge.
It is for cleansing and for spiritual cleansing, and more...
I would research on how to achieve a similar effect and if it is possible i would try it out with some people who understand the purpose of it also.
Afterwards i would ask them what needs to be adressed in order to make it better.
In this way no native traditions are being used, only the intention of it.
Ofcourse i would need some sort of construction to let the people sweat, so a lodge would still be needed.
I would explain to people, that this event is not native.
I hope you understand my explanation, if not.... keep asking.

I do say, that i was a fraud, since i did sell ceremonies, wich i thought were native.
I'm not proud of that part, but i also do not wish to hide it.

Creator grants those gifts, i believe i received that gift also.
I never asked for it, i just got it.
I see it as a talent and a lot of people get rich of off their talent (footbaal-players and so on for example)
I do not wish to get rich of off my talent, just to be able to make a decent living.
What a decent living is for me..... i can pay my bills, buy groceries, get some nice toys for my son, on occasion get my wife something nice.... that kind of a living.

I guess i have been defending it.... it is not my intention and yes, the more i read posts here, the more i come to the conclusion that something went wrong in my...... education.
I did learn a lot from it, but i now know it can never be the real deal.
I will go on with what i did learn, without claiming it to be native.

This is one of the reasons i joined this board, it opened my eyes!
I now know that, there's always a reason for things to happen.
Thank you all for virtually kicking my ass 

I do hope we will be able to teach all this i have learned to other people also.
I cannot do this alone, and need your help.
I will do whatever needs to be done, to help you people to expose false claims.

I also hope, that you see, my intentions are ok and that i have nothing to hide.
We will still have some different views on things, that is ok with me.
We live in different worlds so to say, you have your views wich come from your heritage, i have mine.
Let's respect that of eachother, so we can help eachother.
I don't remember who said it, but i remember something like this:"we are all brothers and sisters, red, white, black and yellow, we are all related" this goes on offcourse, but i do not want to fill in words i don't remember anymore.
Let us all be the brothers and sisters we are.

Many blessings,

Wayne

[Wayne]

This reply made me happy,
Some-one who is really trying to see the person behind a name and some letters.
Thank you for clarifying a lot.
Yes i agree i have to be carefull in using the related-thing.
It was intended in a way (as i understand it, correct me if i'm wrong) to have people talk to eachother instead of fighting.

About the no compesation-remark... i chose to be here and voluteered my help.
I do not always volunteer, so a lot of help is done for free also 
But i want it to be my own choice to help for free.

Thanks again for your reply.

Many blessings,

Wayne

[Defend the Sacred]

Using the intention of something is also not easy to explain, but i will give it a try.
Please don't bite me on examples.....
Say, that i would want to do a sweatlodge, i would experience a sweatlodge and ask questions about it afterwards, so i can form a picture in my mind about what the purpose is of the sweatlodge.

Again, please remember that we are pretty sure you've never participated in a legitimate sweat lodge ceremony. And it's very clear that you were not trained to lead one.

It is for cleansing and for spiritual cleansing, and more...
I would research on how to achieve a similar effect and if it is possible i would try it out with some people who understand the purpose of it also.

Again, how could they?

Afterwards i would ask them what needs to be adressed in order to make it better.
In this way no native traditions are being used, only the intention of it.
Ofcourse i would need some sort of construction to let the people sweat, so a lodge would still be needed.
I would explain to people, that this event is not native.
I hope you understand my explanation, if not.... keep asking.

I will go on with what i did learn, without claiming it to be native.

A key thing about traditional cultures is that the practice is based in, well, tradition. Particular ceremonies and rituals have developed over many generations to meet the spiritual needs of a particular group of people, living on a particular type of land, and interacting with particular spirits. A purification ceremony for Indigenous people of the Plains is different from a purification ceremony used by the Indigenous in Hawaii, and both are different from a purification ceremony used in ancient Ireland. There are different values, assumptions, and traditions. A lot of what you're assuming, as an outsider, is about "purification" is not what meets the eye. You are assuming you know the purpose of these ceremonies when it seems clear you do not. It seems to me you learned what you know from people who were not from the culture you claim.

If you are taking as a basis the ceremony of another people's culture, and only altering it cosmetically, or using pieces of the original ceremony and ceremonial structures out of context, that is still appropriation. It also dishonors the ways of one's own ancestors, which fall into disuse as they are replaced with things from other cultures that seem easier or more "exotic". If you read the threads on here, there is a serious problem with people adopting the plains-style sweat lodge, changing some of the details, and then claiming it's something else that belongs to them. Whether it be the so-called "Celtic Shamans" or people like James Arthur Ray and his Sedona death lodge, it's still appropriation, misrepresentation, and in many cases, very dangerous.

The ceremonies and protocols for who can lead a ceremony in a lodge exist in the form they do for a reason - they are tested over generations to be safe. Taking bits of the ceremony out of context - yes, even "just" the lodge - is still ripping off the Indigenous people from whom you got the idea to try such a thing. People who change those ceremonies, or perform them without proper training, can die. We've also heard of people having psychotic breakdowns from these misunderstood and changed ceremonies.

If you want to do a "cleansing" ceremony, in my opinion it should be suited to the ways practiced by your ancestors. We all owe respect to our ancestors, and go back far enough and every single one of us has ancestors who practiced earth-based ceremonies.  Many Europeans cry, "But, we have nothing!" It's not true. It just means that European hasn't looked hard enough, hasn't worked hard enough, and is expecting their finds to look like those of a romanticized Plains NDN culture.

While most people have at least some ancestry from multiple cultures, I'm not talking about, "I have blood from those people, so I can do that culture's ceremonies". No, as many people have repeatedly said, it doesn't work that way.  It's a process of understanding your own culture and the ways of your ancestors, and finding and cultivating community that can provide checks and balances on any ceremonial people. No matter what culture you're part of, it's about respect and community, not making up new rules on your own and expecting people to respect that.

[Defend the Sacred]

Well, Wayne, looks like you have a new thread where you can share: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2914

[Wayne]

I replied there.

Blessings,

Wayne

[Wayne]

This is my goodbye from your board.
I've read a lot of articles already and found, that your way of dealing with people is not my "cup of tee".
I've seen people who apologize again and again, even begging for mercy, and what do you do here?
You kick them further down in the dust!
Even people who practise their own spirituality (of their own country) are not safe from your superiority!
If this is how natives treat people and yes i know i'm generalizing now, but hey! so do you all the time over here!
Then i will not be part of this abuse of people anymore!
Go on with your rambling and falsely accusing people, but without me!
I met some people in the states wich do not do these things and they called themselfs natives.
I will no longer name any names, since i would not want you to smear their name!
I think it is time for you to do what you tell people to do:"get of your highhorse and start treating people with respect!!!"
Because of the way you treat people with other beliefs (shamanism, reiki, shamballa, tantra and so on) you lost the chance to teach me what you try to "sell".

The few people who did treat me with respect: thanks.

I hereby demand you close my account and delete my posts, if not legal action will be considered.

Still.... many blessings,

Wayne

Edited for the thanks to the people who did treat me right. (just to make sure i didn't get that one again)

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

apparently you are reading but not hearing what is being said..

oh i know, i've been there.. when i was ragged down 13 years ago in a forum for
defending that spirituality cannot be "stolen"..  now i know better.. because i
took time to try and understand and see from other view.. and now i agree..
it CAN be stolen.. and it is...  often..

people aren't begging for mercy.. they begging for others to accept their justification
for selling Spirit and selling Native Spirituality.  Begging for their excuses to be accepted
and that they just be let go of their own guilt for having doing so.. well.. that won't
be given..

edited: 30 years?  sorry.. 13.. 1997.

[apukjij]

you have just done what every other culture vulture has done when joining this forum.

rather than accept that there is no such thing as shamanism, the medicine wheel etc and that each First Nation is the owner of their Intellectual and Spiritual Property;

you become short tempered, vindictive and end up threatening legal means, this is the exact blueprint every other culture vulture has done here in our Forum.

In my Native language (i am not fluent but am working towards it)  we would call this behavior "Napi'ta'lsit" which is related to the root word for reflection, as the reflection in a mirror or water; it happens when someone sees a reflection of themselves and it makes them angry and then they lash out and blame others, seeing this behavior pattern in others when its really a reflection of their own nature.

btw the Admins only delete inappropriate posts or ban inappropriate accts, if you want your posts deleted and your acct deleted do it yourself.