Wayne

[Wayne]

I'm Wayne i live in the Netherlands, but was born in the USA.
It is beleived, that i have some native american blood running trough my veins.
I'm appalled by the things some people do in respect to the native traditions.
I was lucky, to have had guidance by a native, who was a medicin-man.
He told me, i could use that same description for myself (medicinman).
I was proud to have become this far, so i used the name medicinman in order to be able to help more people.
I found out, that the use of this term attracted al lot of people and most of them wanted to know about the rituals and other sacred things of the natives.
I soon decided to change my denomination from medicinman to Nature-man (freely translated from dutch).
I do not use the sacred methodes for others anymore, instead i use the intention of it and made my own sort of rituals.
I explain to people, that i did receive the lessons, but that i'm not using them anymore.
This stipulates, that i was a "fraud", but my intentions were pure.
Nevertheless.... i was a fraud, since i was selling ceremonies (at the price it costs, so i made no profit).
Now i beleive, that i'm doing the things in the spirit of the great mystery, but i'm not selling native ceremonies anymore.
The sacred ceremonies are safe with me now.
I'm looking forward to hear your view on this.

May you all be blessed.

Wayne

[Wayne]

I'll ask him about the babies.
Purtaining to the cost-coverage..... no-one needs to travel you say.
That's your opinion, wich i respect, but.... i have an other opinion. 
I also charge money for the time spent in helping people.
Nowadays the currency for gifting is money.
I wish it were different, but it is not something i can change permanently.
I do also accept other gifts, when people cannot pay me, i still have a lot of self-made marmelade 
My car was washed one time, my dogs were walked, when i was in the hospital (some time ago already).
So there is always some form of compensation, i don't see the harm in charging money for ones time spent.
Offcourse are there the exploiters.... they charge outragiously!

Many blessings,

Wayne

[Defend the Sacred]

The exploiters are not just people who charge outrageous amounts. The exploiters are also those who are setting themselves up as healers and teachers of ways they don't fully understand, and don't have a right to use.  Exploiters are often people who have a little bit of knowledge, but who were badly trained and are out on their own, operating outside the traditional system of checks and balances that legitimate healers and teachers operate within.

Someone can never charge a cent and still be exploiting NDN or other traditional cultures.

[As the above is not about Redsky, but is a tangent about your beliefs on charging for ceremony and healing, I'm moving this tangent to your intro thread]

[Wayne]

I replied to Critter..... so i copied the text back to the original topic.
Since you think it belongs here.... i'll leave it here also.

I agree, that in copying beliefs without understanding the rights and more importantly the obligations, there can be exploitation.
Thanks for letting me see this.

Many Blessings,

Wayne

[Wayne]

I'm replying to another.....
It starts with ..... as you can read.
That is clearly a reply to the question asked.
I elaborate on it by telling something about people charging, including myself.
I don't feel the need to post this in my intro, that should be my choice don't you think?
Don't feel attacked in anyway, i mean to say this with respect in my voice...... since you don't hear a voice, i explain my feelings in this. 

Many blessings,

Wayne

[Defend the Sacred]

I don't feel attacked. I'm trying to let you know how this forum works. Please spend some time reading and getting to know the views held by most of our members about charging for ceremony, who has the rights to ceremony, and similar topics. I think you will find that if you spend some time listening before jumping in on multiple threads and defending things that we are opposed to, things will go better for you.

This forum is for fighting exploitation, not defending it. Often people come here to defend ceremony-sellers and other exploiters. You can share your views, of course, but you may want to think about the fact that we have had white Europeans come here and try to defend exploiters and ceremony-selling so many times it's all very familiar to us. We try to be patient, in case it's simply a matter of someone having not had access to information, but if you get rude or can't follow the rules of the forum you can't participate. Consider this a polite warning. :-)

[Wayne]

Consider this a polite warning. :-)

I will. 
I would ask you to read my intro carefully also, since i do not sell sacred ceremonies anymore.
I did one time, but it didn't feel right, so i abandoned that.
Now i'm using the knowledge passed on to me, to help people.
Helping in many ways, but most important.... just lending an ear.
I post on many forums and did not come across such a diligent moderator 
I respect your views, so i will try my best in learning the rules of this board, i do hope on some more of your patience and that of the other moderators.
I do use some things from several "shamanic" teachings in helping people, but those are only based loosely on what i have learned.
For instance i use a drum for healing, i explain to people, that sound can heal people and that i use the drum for it, as other people use other sounds to achieve the same effect.
So no drum-healing-ceremony!
I don't sing when drumming (i wouldn't want the people to startle  )
I just let the sound-vibrations do their thing.
Sometimes just a hug can do wonders!

Many Blessings,

Wayne

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

I'll ask him about the babies.
Purtaining to the cost-coverage..... no-one needs to travel you say.
That's your opinion, wich i respect, but.... i have an other opinion.  
I also charge money for the time spent in helping people.
Nowadays the currency for gifting is money.
I wish it were different, but it is not something i can change permanently.
I do also accept other gifts, when people cannot pay me, i still have a lot of self-made marmelade  
My car was washed one time, my dogs were walked, when i was in the hospital (some time ago already).
So there is always some form of compensation, i don't see the harm in charging money for ones time spent.
Offcourse are there the exploiters.... they charge outragiously!

Many blessings,

Wayne

i help people. i don't need anything but a simple thank you.
life is hard, i work to make money to pay bills. i am very
strong in my beliefs that Spirit does indeed give some of
us a gift to carry into the world. the gift is for the people
and it is honor to be a carrier. i would never soil a gift
by making the people pay for what is gift. it is imo, a dishonor.

and.. i don't believe that those who truly carry such a gift
would charge.. so those who do.. charge anything at all...
i don't believe they are carriers of Spirit gift.

[apukjij]

i believe if you are helping people in a clinical setting, then by all means charge for services or earn a wage, but when it comes to the Spiritual Realm for Native People, then its completely opposite, Chief Looking Horse put it so succinctly, (Creator Bless that Man!)
http://www.manataka.org/page108.html#October_20,_2009 on the Sedona Tragedy:
...."When you do ceremony - you can not have money on your mind.
We deal with the pure sincere energy to create healing that comes from everyone in that circle of ceremony. The heart and mind must be connected. When you involve money, it changes the energy of healing. The person wants to get what they paid for; the Spirit Grandfathers will not be there,  Our way of life is now being exploited! You do more damage then good. No” mention” of monetary energy should exist in healing, not even with a can of love donations. When that energy exists, they will not even come. Only ‘after’ the ceremony, between the person that is being healed and the Intercessor who has helped connect with the Great Spirit, the energy of money can be given out of appreciation. That exchange of energy is from the heart; it is private and does not involve the Grandfathers! Whatever gift of appreciation the person who received the help, can now give the Intercessor what ever they feel their healing is worth."...
In my fundamental orthodox way of thinking this means to me, no mention of money before the ceremony, no charging of fees, no asking for donations, no mentioning to come after the Ceremony to pay or contribute, the energy of money cannot be allowed to taint Ceremony! so after the Ceremony, (and not if youve been lead to feel guilty that the Conductor deserves to be rewarded,)  if in your Heart, you feel you would like to honour the Conductor of the Ceremony with any gifting, thats fine!

More and more Traditional People of the Western Hemisphere are adopting a Zero-Tolerance in regards to charging or profiting of Ceremony, and wayne whether you agree or not thats simply the way it is....i have been in Ceremonies with many many many other Traditional Native People, and not ONCE have i ever heard money or donations mentioned before a Ceremony is going to be held. And only once in all the 100's of Ceremonies i was invited too, did i ever hear the mention of a donation after a Sweat, but it was only in general discussion, and it just so happened even tho we discussed it, none of us present thought it was the right thing to do. But mind you, its also up to the Community to support the Conductors of the Ceremonies, helping with wood, the Grandmother rocks used in the Lodge, the Feasts, gas, building Long-Houses etc, sadly this is not done enough in our Native Communities, and many Ceremonial Leaders are used to paying for everything themselves.
The only exception in Indian Country we make for this topic is for those Ceremonial Leaders who work in Prisons conducting Ceremonies for the Prisoners and rightly so!

[Wayne]

I don't charge for the gift!

i don't see the harm in charging money for ones time spent.

I charge for the time i spent on it!
Time i could have used to do things with my family, or to get groceries, or.... you name it.
I have a paid job in wich i get paid for my time, so why not for other time spent?
My job is working with refugees, wich i get paid for by my employer...... do i make money on the sorrow these people have endured? No, i just get compensated for the time i put in it.
The very good quote from Chief Looking Horse does not pertain to this, since i do not sell ceremonies!
Please read carefully.

Many blessings,

Wayne

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

i have said all i need, but for point of perspective i will say this..

do you get paid for time spent with family? getting groceries?

i fail to see the difference.

in my job i am paid because my time is being sold to my bosses.
in my life, i am not paid because my time on earth is given to me.

enough said from me.

be well.

[apukjij]

hi wayne and thank you i did go and read your intro again, and am glad you are not selling anymore. my post by the Chief was not to get you to stop selling ceremony, but to give you a peek into the mindset of WHY we have this prohibition, i feel its very important to share why as well!

now for the next topic and its the one the non-natives have the tuffest time wrapping their minds around, here's an excerpt from the Mi'kmaq Ethics Watch (comprised of Elders of the Mi'kmaq Nation, which include some of my family members) http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=1753.0
..."Principles
Mi'kmaw people are the guardians and interpreters of their culture and knowledge system - past, present, and future.
Mi'kmaw knowledge, culture, and arts, are inextricably connected with their traditional lands, districts, and territories.
Mi'kmaw people have the right and obligation to exercise control to protect their cultural and intellectual properties and knowledge.
... Mi'kmaw knowledge may have traditional owners involving individuals, families, clans, associations, and societies which must be determined in accordance with these peoples' own customs, laws, and procedures."...

What this means is that my Spirituality, Customs, Traditions and other Traditional Knowledge is the Cultural, Intellectual and Spiritual Property of the Mi'kmaq Nation and here the Mi'kmaq Grand Council, of which my direct family has a representative on, is stating its not just our Right but our Obligation to protect this knowledge. So concerning your "shamanic teachings" if you have any Traditional Mi'kmaw Knowledge you are here-by expressly forbidden to share, or teach this knowledge.

[Wayne]

My point exactly critter, for family or yourself you don't get paid.
So all else is time wasted, unless ..... you get something in return, like from your bosses.
What if someone has his/her own company..... they also charge for the time spent!
So i don't see the difference.

Many blessings,

Wayne

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

My point exactly critter, for family or yourself you don't get paid.
So all else is time wasted, unless ..... you get something in return, like from your bosses.
What if someone has his/her own company..... they also charge for the time spent!
So i don't see the difference.

Many blessings,

Wayne

ok, i will say something more simply..

helping people is not time wasted, it is my life. my life given to me for free.
what else to do in my life? be with family sure.. i don't charge them either.

what i get in return is good feeling of being good part of the good life we
are given. what more do i need?

i need money for bills, i sell some of my time for that.. the rest of my
time is given freely to Life.. my life and others' lives.

whether you can understand or not is not my issue.. and i am only
repeating as courtesy. 

be well.

[Wayne]

@apukjij
I understand.
I'm not aware of any Mi'kmaq ceremony i know of.
I was tought by a Lakota.
He passed away last year at the age of 70. wich i heard is kind of old for a Lakota, or any native.
Now you probably would want a name..... his name was Kevin Bluecloud and he lived near Nowata, OK.
That's all he told me about himself.
I have been in contact with him for over 15 years.
I also visited him several times and each time he had something for me to do.... never easy.  
Nevertheless, i love(d) this man to death.
He told me the ceremonies are sacred and never to be performed in front of "jackasses", that is what he called it.
I took it, that jackasses were people who not willing to learn about the ways he tought me.
Since i learned more from him and others...... i now know what those "jackasses" are...... jackasses!  

Many blessings,

Wayne