MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

I guess I just don't get it.  If there is no DNA/Blood evidence, then what
is the argue about? DNA/Blood doesn't lie about where it comes from. If
they have no DNA/Blood evidence, then they just cannot be descendants.

[tuschkahouma]

Story ran by WKRG Channel 5 in Biloxi, Mississippi on November 12, 2007, about the National Geographic Genome project doing DNA
tests on willing participants. I knew about the National Geographic people doing DNA tests on the Chief of the Mowa Choctaws.
These snipets were pasted from the main article on the web.


News 5 is taking part in a study by National Geographic to map your deep ancestry. Read on to see how you can unlock your past with DNA.

Here's our third DNA volunteer. Wilford "Long Hair" Taylor is Chief of the MOWA Choctaw Indians. "I've heard so many stories where the Native American comes from. You just don't know and I think DNA will reveal that." His Mount Vernon tribe is fighting for national recognition. "It just doesn't add up for people to say, well you're not who you say you are when you been told that all your life from generation to generation


Chief Long Hair is part of the R1B Haplogroup. His people left Africa and migrated to Asia before heading west to Europe. "The chief's Haplogroup share ancestry with the typical Native American lineages in Central Asia around 40,000 years ago." The Chief knew a few hundred years of ancestry. Now, he knows thousands! "I really just can't believe that I touched my ancestors of 60,000 years ago by DNA. Its fascinating."

Uh Oh. there's proof to the contrary. Who's going to be in the witchhunt now. You better figure out who you're going after next.

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Well, that doesn't really say anything. I mean, 40,000 years ago my family's
DNA would be connected to a source out of Africa as well, but I am not African.

If you take my DNA and trace it back you'd get German and Russian/Lithuanian and
probably a few smatterings of something else.. which would show I am not African, even
if 40,000 years ago I had genetic connection to Africa.

[tuschkahouma]

It doesn't really say anything except that at every corner where the noise on here is refuted the deniers will deny. Keep denying we'll
still be Choctaws and after all the evidence to the contrary you'll just be arguing amongst each other. Chi pisa li chinni, okla api hommi.
Chahta imanupa ish anumpuli hinla ho?

[BlackWolf]

tuschkahouma said

firstly, you insinuate that other Choctaws don't accept the Mowas, well Kenneth York does and was formerly against them under Philip Martin.

The Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians weren’t even of aware of the Mowa Band of Choctaw Indian’s existence until fairly recently.  They started to become aware of them in the 70’s and 80’s.  This is about the same time when many of these fraudulent groups claiming to be Indian Tribes starting appearing out of thin air throughout the South East.  In post 47 you posted the article from Cedric Sunray entitled, Will the Choctaw Nation Please Stand Up.  Cedric Sunray implies in that article, that there is some sort of Historical alliance between the Mississippi Choctaws and the MOWAS.  WHICH THERE IS NOT!

Here is an excerpt from a letter written in 1991 from Chief Phillip Martin to Daniel K. Inouye, the then Chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs in regards to this alleged Mississippi Choctaw/Mowa  connection.  There is no evidence to support neither yours nor Cedric Sunray’s assertions of a Historical alliance between the Mowas and the Mississippi Band.

It has only been within the last 10 to 20 years that the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians has been aware there were people in Washington and Mobile counties, Alabama, claiming Choctaw descent.  Some members of that community have visited the reservation here in Mississippi to study tribal customs; and some tribal members here  have been paid by the MOWAs to come over to teach the community Choctaw dances and the Choctaw language ( although currently we know no one there that does speak the language.)  Our people could discern no Choctaw customs extant among the MOWA population at the time of our first contacts with them; and insofar as we are aware, the only Traditional Choctaw customs now practiced by the MOWA community have resulted from instruction by members of the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians.  These activities were carried out by individual members of the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians and did not constitute any form of recognition by the tribal government of the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians.

[tuschkahouma]

this was during the smear my neighbors to protect my iskulli period for Mr. Martin. If you're good at finding things look at the attacks
the Jena Band of Choctaw Indians had to put up with from Chief Martin in the 1990's. There have been Mowas who went to Choctaw
Central High School on the rez for decades almost three hours to the northwest of Mt. Vernon. And the chorus still goes...
every bit of evidence denied by people who don't want to lose skepticism.

[earthw7]

I still see no evidence of these people being native there has nothing other than hearsay posted,
As native people we know our families and who they are so we can tell people seven generation back
you tell the history of 500 years ago which means there is little to connect you today with the people.
rumors and hearsay is all i have seen on this post no evidence. Just like those so called Blackfeet-sponi people
who have evidence except a supposed church that was named blackfeet, no relationship to us as a people.
We need evdence, real evidence the genealogy to the Native people with their native names.
As Native people we have no problem saying who we are, everyone should know their background.

[educatedindian]

Story ran by WKRG Channel 5 in Biloxi, Mississippi on November 12, 2007, about the National Geographic Genome project doing DNA
tests on willing participants. I knew about the National Geographic people doing DNA tests on the Chief of the Mowa Choctaws....

 "The chief's Haplogroup share ancestry with the typical Native American lineages in Central Asia around 40,000 years ago." The Chief knew a few hundred years of ancestry. Now, he knows thousands! "I really just can't believe that I touched my ancestors of 60,000 years ago by DNA. Its fascinating."

Uh Oh. there's proof to the contrary. Who's going to be in the witchhunt now. You better figure out who you're going after next.

You really don't help either yourself or the Mowas by getting so hysterical and making ridiculous claims. Apparently, to you, asking questions or saying "I disagree" is the same as a "witchhunt."

What you found was evidence a single Mowa has Native DNA. Not Choctaw, but Native. The DNA tests can't prove ancestry to a single tribe.

And some of us have said repeatedly that the DNA evidence shows a tiny number, a couple percent of the Mowas, have Native DNA. 95% or more don't.

You didn't post the link for that article. If the Nat'l Geographic testing found more than a single Mowa testing positive as a Native, you would no doubt be crowing about it. Obviously, it didn't.

What I strongly suspect is that you had a few Natives at some point in the past who intermixed, esp with escaped slaves and free Blacks, and later on poor whites. NDN identity offered an out, a way to get less discrimination than being black or mixed black/white. I don't see why that's such a bad thing as you seem to think.

[snorks]

I hesitated to enter this conversation but I felt I could contribute something. 

One time in my life I wanted to be Indian.  Don't ask me why because I do not have the foggiest idea.  My family had stories of distant Native ancestors, and of course I wanted to know more.  I researched, found all sorts of information, and learned the language etc.  However, I did not know anyone from the tribe of my family's stories.  I ended up looking up various NE groups make of folks like me, not real tribes but want-to-be.  Eventually, I realised that there is a big difference between lightening and a lightening bug.  So I stopped, and went about my life as an ordinary White person.

My conclusion is that if you don't know anyone of the real tribe, have no real DNA evidence, or have no real idea of culture unless derived from books, then why continue to be what you are really not.

My experience with some of the NE groups was that they were looking for straws to prove that they were the real deal but they usually got stopped by the fact they couldn't prove their existence as a cohesive group before the 1970s or 80s.  They were usually started by one family or person who ended up being "chief".  Or they had some slim evidence of a mistaken Census identification.  The neighbours usually had a different idea about these groups in that they were not Indians and were just doing it for the money or for tax advantages.  In short the local people *knew* who these people really were.

As for the person who is defending the Mowas, having most of the evidence coming from one book, no matter how well done, is still a secondary source.  Primary sources are needed as proof.  Also, more than one book is needed as proof.

I hope I haven't trod on anyone's toes.  I will go back to reading and lurking.  I joined the list to understand more about these fake groups that I had ran into.

[tuschkahouma]

my family is historically from that area. My non-Indian ancestors moved there in 1800 as I previously stated. My ancestors are buried in Greene and Perry County, MS, and Washington County, AL. Washington County is the Wa in Mowa. I've traveled extensively through that area since my grandparents moved back to the MS Gulf Coast in 1974. My mom's family was from the Richton and Leakesville area. So this isn't book knowledge. I grew up there in the summers. Pretty much anyone whose ancestors have been there since the early 19th century has either Choctaw
or Creek ancestry. My aunt's ex-boss was an unenrolled Creek descendant whose family got ICC money for Alabama Creek lands in the
recent past. Obviously none of you have been to that area or know how extensively their tribal communities have been documented.
You just cast stones on the internet. I was reading about Shepherds, Treherns, Greenwood LeFlore, and Apushmataha because there
were Treherns in Pascagoula where my family lived who were related to Oklahoma Choctaw Treherns.

Unlike all of the Seakonke Wampanoag groups that snorks is referring to, people in the Mowa Community spoke the Choctaw language
historically. The Mowas aren't some ground up cultural restoration like the some of the Pequots. They do what they've always
done. Choctaws have always been in Alabama. Alabamu is a Choctaw word as is Koasati and Coushatta. Chunchilla is a historic
Mowa community as is Nunih Chaha. The Mowas aren't pretendians. They are the descendants of Choctaws, Creeks, Cherokees,
Mabilians, and Chiracahua Na-Dene along with Euro and African peoples. The area where they are was in the St. Stephans or Hoe Buckintoppa
Choctaw treaty area.

[tuschkahouma]

if this evidence wasn't stated by me in the earlier part of this inquisition I'll give you all a bit of Choctaw history now. Apushmataha was a Choctaw
Chief prior to removal in 1830. He died in 1824 in Washington D.C. . He was very pro-American and fought along side Andrew Jackson
at Horseshoe Bend attacking the Red Stick Creeks who killed his parents. Tecumseh was a Creek Shawnee visionary who paid
Apushmataha a visit for alliance purposes leading up to the War of 1812. Apushmataha was allied with the Americans and told
Tecumseh and Tenskwataweh to leave. The two brothers found followers amongst the Red Stick Creeks in their pursuit to stop
the theft of their lands by Americans. Some forty Choctaw warriors and families went along with Tecumseh and were banished with death threats
from the MS Choctaw area. When Apushmataha died in D.C., some of these warriors returned to MS. The majority stayed in the
Mowa area. This is where some of the Mowa Choctaw ancestry comes from. The Mowa community views Apushmataha as a sellout
who cost them their lands and recognition. The Mowa view of these circumstances is historic from that time. Ironically, this sellout view has reared
it's head in conversations I've witnessed for years. I had a MS Choctaw co-worker about 12 years ago attending Haskell. I told
him I knew Oklahoma Choctaws who were almost fullbloods from LA with French ancestors. His comment shocked me but he said,
"They ain't real... they left us". The leaving equasion was brought on somewhat by leaders like Apushmataha. A lot of the
anti Mowa sentiments people like Philip Martin had are historic from right before removal in 1830. I have issues concerning Choctaw
removal because the white side of my ancestry lives on land they took from the Choctaw and Biloxi side of my ancestry.
We're not pretendians. We have a history like other tribes where people still hold grieviances amongst one another over past tragedies
that caused great geographical splits with Choctaws in AL, LA, MS, TX, and OK, due to removal policies of the US Government.

[tuschkahouma]

The statement Philip Martin made about not knowing about the Mowa Choctaws until recently is typical of MS and LA Indians.
Clyde Jackson, a Jena Choctaw man stated that he thought the Jenas were the only Indians in the United States after his ancestor's
separation from a removal trail in the 1830's and their subsequent staying in LA. This was in the book, "As Long as the Waters Flow"
by Frye Galliard which also covered the Mowa Choctaws, Miss Choctaws, Poarch Creeks, Tunica Biloxis, and Houmas along with
a number of other southern and northeastern tribes with federal, state, and no recognition. If there was animosity and no respect
why did the MS and Mowa Choctaws end up in the same book?  All of the Tecumseh, Tenskataweh, and Apushmataha history
touches me directly. The Munsees I work with originally came from Moraviantown where Tecumseh died in battle. His memorial
statue is west of Moraviantown on the edge of the 1813 battlefield where I saw it. His brother, Tenskwataweh, is buried in a grove
surrounded by an old neighborhood in Kansas City, KS, which I finally found last summer where the area is now protected.
Tecumseh and Tenskwataweh visited the Choctaws and lured warriors away from Apushmataha whose descendants are now
amongst the Mowa Choctaw people. Having been to Ontario and Alabama I appreciate the distance the two Shawnee
brothers covered trying to stop the Americans thirst for land. We have a history the nahollos will never have.

[tuschkahouma]

I have a question for Diana since she's Anishnabe. What's your take on the Burt Lake Band of Ottawas and Chippewas who were the victims
of BIA bureaucrats who didn't want to federally recognize them in Michigan so that they could be part of a multi million dollar
claim settlement on millions of acres of land lost in 1830's fraudulent treaties? No one is ever slandered over money are they?
Ada Deer stated that just because they were a tribe at some point in the past doesn't they are now and that was a statement
that denied damage monies and federal recognition. No one is ever selectively victimized over money and denied who they are
legally?  The federal government and Michigan didn't want any more fed three fires people in Michigan just as the MS Band of
Choctaws and Poarch Creeks didn't want any more gaming competition from the Jena Band of Choctaws or the Mowa Band of Choctaws.
And they leaned on the GOP, Jack Abramov, Michael Scanlon, and Ralph Reed, to accomplish this goal. The MS Band got especially
active after the Jena Band tried to put a casino in MS below the MS Choctaws not too long ago. Think about it.

[Diana]

I have a question for Diana since she's Anishnabe. What's your take on the Burt Lake Band of Ottawas and Chippewas who were the victims
of BIA bureaucrats who didn't want to federally recognize them in Michigan so that they could be part of a multi million dollar
claim settlement on millions of acres of land lost in 1830's fraudulent treaties? No one is ever slandered over money are they?
Ada Deer stated that just because they were a tribe at some point in the past doesn't they are now and that was a statement
that denied damage monies and federal recognition. No one is ever selectively victimized over money and denied who they are
legally?  The federal government and Michigan didn't want any more fed three fires people in Michigan just as the MS Band of
Choctaws and Poarch Creeks didn't want any more gaming competition from the Jena Band of Choctaws or the Mowa Band of Choctaws.
And they leaned on the GOP, Jack Abramov, Michael Scanlon, and Ralph Reed, to accomplish this goal. The MS Band got especially
active after the Jena Band tried to put a casino in MS below the MS Choctaws not too long ago. Think about it.

@tusckahouma, I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm not Anishnabe. As a matter of fact I've never said I was Indian or not, ever, on this forum and I've been posting here for 5 years. Just to set you straight I would never be so impudent, conspicuous or boorish to talk about my personel life on this forum because this forum is not about me. Think about it.


Lim lemtsh,

Diana


PS. I agree with Ada Deer

[tuschkahouma]

Editorial: Mississippi Hiding
Thursday, June 23, 2005

 
"You have to be ruthless. You can't be nice to these people."
-- C. Bryant Rogers, outside counsel for Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians. June 22, 2005.

The Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians are an American success story. After years of being disregarded by the federal government, the tribe took matters into its own hands, turning the reservation into an attractive place to do business long before Indian gaming became a reality. A casino eventually came along in 1989, making the Choctaws the third largest employer in the state of Mississippi.

This story of success, from poverty to prosperity, is one worth telling. But now that the tribe is under scrutiny for freely giving millions to non-Indian lobbyists and so-called activists, the Mississippi Choctaws don't seem to want to share anymore. Chief Philip Martin, the tribe's highly revered and respected leader, is nowhere to be found. After facing no questions from the committee, C. Bryant Rogers, the tribe's longtime outside counsel, rushed his colleagues out of the hearing room in hopes of avoiding reporters' queries.

Which leads to the $15 million question: What do the Choctaws have to hide?

Tough luck finding out. Even though the tribe's witnesses at yesterday's Senate Indian Affairs Committee hearing went out of their way to point out that their lobbying and public relations activities are "lawful," they aren't letting the American public know about these activities, citing some very vague and unspecified "First Amendment" rights.

Could it be that the tribe is ashamed to admit that it associated with the likes of Grover Norquist and Ralph Reed? These Republicans were more than willing to take millions in tribal funds -- just as long as it was "scrubbed" clean so that no one would find out that it came from a tribal source. Trouble is, someone actually bothered to find out.

"Sometimes that's called laundering but that has a criminal connotation," Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-North Dakota) dutifully noted.

It's more likely that these GOP activists were too embarrassed to be associated with tribes because, as everyone knows, Indian gaming is toxic. Ralph Reed can't get away faster from the tribe after it was disclosed he accepted $1.15 million from the Choctaws. And when's the last time you heard Grover Norquist defend tribal sovereignty?

"I'm sure there probably were concerns or public perception concerns about ... not being associated with a tribe or with a gaming tribe," Nell Rogers, the tribe's planner, observed.

So where does that leave the tribe? After all, the tribe knowingly spent millions in order to "shape public opinion," as Chief Martin's testimony-in-absentia stated.

Or could it be that the tribe is ashamed to admit that it may have worked to undermine the self-determination of other tribes, a right that the Choctaws exercised so very well on their path to success? Documents and phone scripts released by the committee yesterday indicate that tribal money was used to "shape public opinion" against the Jena Band of Choctaw Indians in Louisiana, the Tigua Tribe and Alabama-Coushatta Tribe of Texas and the Nottawaseppi Huron Band of Potawatomi in Michigan.

Did the Choctaws fund any of these efforts or similar campaigns against the Poarch Band of Creek Indians, whose sovereignty is under attack by Christian groups and state officials in Alabama? Thanks to a special agreement with the committee that keeps certain tribal documents out of the public record, we may never know the answer