Lakota-Dakota-Nakota

[earthw7]

And we know we travel from the tip of South America up the coast of mexico
to the Mississippi River to Michigan then into Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, and today
South Dakota, North Dakota, Montana

[tuschkahouma]

I remember heading northeast near Oconto, Wisconsin on my way to Escanaba, MI, in 2002, from the Menominee and Stockbridge
reservations and there was a historical marker speaking of an Ojibwe-Dakota battle. That's how I know about the previous battle.
As for the South Dakota Lakota stories you all were there way before the 1700's which most wasichu historians hold as the time
when Lakota came onto the Plains. I remember the first time I heard the Blackfoot eastern Sioux story from a person of white/
black/saponi ancestry. It was in Topeka, KS in 1991. I know that the Blackfoot or Piegan people were from Montana and I was
skeptical as you are. I don't think that these people are asserting that they are from the Blackfoot Lakota in the Dakotas.
I've heard the supposed bs stories like you have and I've come to the idea that Blackfoot was some generic name for mixed
blood people in the Carolinas and Virginia in the 1700's. The Manahoac, Moneton, Monacan, Ocaneechi, Tutelo, Nahyssan,
and Saponi peoples were forced from their lands after the Bacon Rebellion in 1677 in the Virginia and Carolina area. There
were small communities of Siouan people that reconfigured themselves as settlers and slaves came into this area throughout
the 17th and 18th centuries. There are mixed white and Indian and mixed white, black, and Indian communities all along the
Southeast US coast. You are correct in stating that many of them don't know their histories. However, they were the first
indigenous people in the way of colonists and they were overran and in the process much of the culture that the Plains Dakota
have because you all were strong and moved west was lost by these people as the colonists overran them on their way west.
Many of them are pan-tribal from the pictures of their pow-wows. They are lucky to have identity left at all since none of the
eastern siouan tribes had the ability to make treaties with the US. Most of the local southerners drove them to the crappiest
lands near or in the swamps. In closing I have much respect for Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota culture. In the Summer of 2000
I went from the Little Bighorn Battlefield to Lame Deer and Lodge Grass down past the battlefield that happened just before
Little Bighorn. I went back to Wyoming and went to the Medicine Wheel and then to Bear Butte and into the Paha Sapa.
I went to Pine Ridge, White Clay, and Wounded Knee. All of this in a week that left me with a profound memory of it.
I consider myself fortunate to have met people like Billy Mills, Vine DeLoria, Jr., John Trudell, and Russell Means in the last fifteen years.
I respect what you say.

[earthw7]

Thank you

[E.P. Grondine]

Saponi in VA, NC, and SC
Waccamauw Siouan in NC

I am not sure if there has been evidence that these groups are relatived
to us I have been doing research on these groups for a long time and I can
not find any evidence that to the stories they tell are true. I have our oral stories that show we have never been in the east coast we traveled as far as the Mississippi River. We know that as we traveled up the Mississippi River our people broke off from the Nation which was the Dakota. So that is how i know the Biloxi are a part of us. I have to laugh when i hear the stories from the so called Saponi because they always say they are descendant of the Blackfeet-Lakota people but the band was not created until the middle 1700s so i would prefer you leave them off my list thank you. 

Hi earthw7 -

The Siouxian peoples are very ancient, and those nations are indeed related, but very anciently. What those nations remembered was and is true.

You are speaking for eastern Siouxian peoples, and as you point out they became different than western Siouxian peoples.

What occurred was a climate collapse in western North America around 1100 CE, so bad that peoples living to the west of the Mississippi River had to move east, or all would die; men, women and children. 

From what I understand of the eastern histories and the archaeological record, the Monacan accompanied the Lenape east, while the Catawba and Saponi accompanied the Kushita, Chicasa, Choctaw, and Abikhas east.

That's how those Siouxian peoples ended up in the east.

Or at least the Cherokee so remembered, and so do the Shawnee.

Even throwing out Rafinesque's account entirely, we still have the Heckewelder and Sutton fragments of Lenape history, and their lock with the archaeological record still remains.

It is interesting that pipes from Minnesota pipestone are regularly found at Lenape sites and Monacan sites, but not at Shawnee sites.

[E.P. Grondine]

Thanks. Do you have contact information for any of these eastern Siouan groups? I know it may be more difficult as some of these groups, esp in the southeast, are not fed recognized. Though unlike the other case we've been discussing, there's little doubt the majority of them are who they say they are.

And thank you, Educated Indian. You've repeated what I've tried to say for quite some time: the situation in the east is different than in the west.

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi tuschkehoma -

A real pleasure, and a few points

I remember a Kickapoo elder named Reggie in Lawrence, KS, who spoke of when his people fought the Dakota which was probably between 1680 and 1720 and he spoke of the battles being in Illinois and Wisconsin. This was a story passed down to him which he shared with me. This battle was east of the Mississippi River.

The Kickapoo occupied the White River system in Indiana, with their main center at Worthington, Indiana. The date for one of those battles may have been around 1100, but its hard to say.

1680-1720 was the time of the Five Nations attacks in the west, and the subsequent movement of the Kickapoo to the Kankakee River.

I hope you have written Reggie's traditions down somewhere.

You made me just remember the split between the Yanktonai and the Stoney or Assiniboine above Minnesota in the 1700's.

In her book Fossil Legends of the First Americana, Adrienne Mayor states that there are only 200 Assiniboine left. That can't be right.

The Ocanachee were ethnically distinct from Sioux, and very similar to the Yuchi. The few surviving Ocanachee obtained refuge with the Saponi and other  peoples after they were nearly completely wiped out by the Jamestown colonists.

[E.P. Grondine]

And we know we travel from the tip of South America up the coast of Mexico
to the Mississippi River to Michigan then into Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, and today South Dakota, North Dakota, Montana

Hi earthw7,

I am not one to lecture anyone on their own history, but I will note that you have to remember what was passed on by the elders of each nation, and keep each nation's tradition distinct, and that distinct from your own interpretation.

Assiniboine memories of events are different than yours.

I have been told that in this case the proper way is for each person to express their view, and for the other to listen.

The mystery of the eastern Siouxian peoples has baffled many people. I have my view, as best I could form it, but again I remind you that it may be wrong. We all do our best to get the words and facts straight.

Do you know what mt DNA haplogroups Siouxian peoples carry?

 

[earthw7]

which part of the Assiniboine? The Assiniboine are Cree people who mixed with Ihunktonwanan people so their language is a mixture of Cree and Dakota. According to the winter counts they formed one nation around the 1600

[AnnOminous]

I strongly disagree with your claim here, earth.  The Assiniboin First Nations in Canada are linguistically Siouan.  I have never, ever, heard their oral history involve an historical relationship to the Cree other than as trade partners.  Where are you getting this information from? 

[earthw7]

From our winter counts, tell when we were the stoney sioux created and from whom
i love to hear all the stories from the nations i was estmating dates but could be further back
it is told to us that they are our relatives

[AnnOminous]

The Assiniboine are Cree people who mixed with Ihunktonwanan people so their language is a mixture of Cree and Dakota.

Cree?  This is really indicated in Winter Counts?
Please check your records again.  This is not accurate information

This link might help somewhat:
http://www.sicc.sk.ca/heritage/sils/ourlanguages/ihanktonwan/history/dnl_profile.html

[earthw7]

Oh so they are mixed objiway
I knew they were from my nation the Ihunktonwana and they were created in the 1600
when i was in canada at Wahpeton they spoke a cree and mix dakota language
so iam wrong

they are chipasioux

So at Fort Peck they speak a objiway mixed dakota langauge??

[AnnOminous]

Oh so they are mixed objiway
I knew they were from my nation the Ihunktonwana and they were created in the 1600
when i was in canada at Wahpeton they spoke a cree and mix dakota language
so iam wrong

they are chipasioux

So at Fort Peck they speak a objiway mixed dakota langauge??

No, earth, that's not what I'm saying at all.  They are not mixed anything.  Like any other Nation, whether patrilineal or matrilineal, there were marriages and alliances made with those from other Tribes, just like in yours.  They weren't "created" in the 1600s; their Creation Story goes back as far as yours.  And mine.  If you re-read your very first post in this thread that you started, you will find the answers to your questions.

Please, let's not continue to take this subject in a disrespectful direction.

[earthw7]

I meant no disrepect only trying to learn,
it gets confusing because different people tell you different
things.
I guees i am misunderstanding you thats all,
I would like to learn what the creation stories is for your people?
The stories as to why your people are called the Stoney Sioux, there are
so many stories out there i would like to know which one is true.
I was told that the lanuage is mixed with cree but your saying its objiway which
are two different langauges and of course the Nakota.
My sister lives in Fort Peck we are Ihunktonwana, She is always saying that
the people speak a mixed language
I am here to learn

[AnnOminous]

I meant no disrepect only trying to learn,
it gets confusing because different people tell you different
things.
I guees i am misunderstanding you thats all,
I would like to learn what the creation stories is for your people?
The stories as to why your people are called the Stoney Sioux, there are
so many stories out there i would like to know which one is true.
I was told that the lanuage is mixed with cree but your saying its objiway which
are two different langauges and of course the Nakota.
My sister lives in Fort Peck we are Ihunktonwana, She is always saying that
the people speak a mixed language
I am here to learn

earth, it is difficult to pick up from your posts that you are wanting to learn when you continue to make erroneous statements.  I understand that your sister is not the authority, nor should she be quoted as such.  The two reservations in the US--Fort Peck and Fort Belknap-- are both shared reservations.  In Canada there are eight Nakoda-Sioux reserves, each a distinct sovereign Nation.  However, they all speak Nakoda, as you state in your first paragraph.  Apparently Assiniboines south of the border speak a different language (Assiniboin) than in Canada (Stoney) but they are both Nakoda languages.  Nakoda sounds nothing like Lakota but they are both, together with Dakota, in the Siouan language family.  So I hope we have that straight now.

I never said, or implied, they were my people.

I never said, or implied, their language was mixed with Ojibwe.

The fact that you are again stating they speak a mixed language is offensive and erroneous.  The Algonkian-speaking Nations (Cree, Ojibwe and Blackfoot) were, in fact, traditional enemies of the Nakoda Sioux.

It seems like you are making statements to somehow make Assiniboins less "Sioux" than Lakotas.  I hope I am misunderstanding your intentions in this regard.

I do not discuss Creation Stories on the internet, which should be no surprise. 

If you are interested in learning more, I recommend a book written by (now crossed) Chief John Snow called "These Mountains Are Our Sacred Places:  The Story of the Stoney People."  John was a well-respected Chief of the Stoney Nation for over 30 years.

I don't believe I have anything else to say on this matter.  I hope I have added some clarity to a thread that was started initially to add clarification on another matter.  Further queries regarding the Nakoda would be best handled by communicating with each particular Nation.