Question in General

[7he4uthor]

I am in mexico
was invited by an artist Azul
to a temazcal

she speaks of many shamans she knows ... called tatas y nanas
[male/female shamans]

she didnt ask money
i went but left a few minutes into the ritual
i wont go into why now

i am asking though how legitimate these things are generally
they are sprouting up all over, getting popular as westereners lose faith with say christianity
also the psychotropics seem to play a large role
peyote / hikuri many travelers go to san andres near tepic to participate in the huichol peyote ceremony
people talk about it with great pride, the visions they had, how they are so much better
how many shamans they know, nahuals/shapeshifters ... sorcerers, healers,

Azul is very quiet, she got quite angry with me for leaving the temazcal [sweat lodge]

what are you thoughts ?


while in vallarta with azul
i met a couple from holland ... the male participating in a sundance rite
near toluca ... i asked him why not just join opus dae ... you can cut and whip your self there into a trance visionary state

see some of these ideas are strange to me ... the west's urge to leave christianity for the same thing under an ''' native ''' guise/

[7he4uthor]

years ago i was invited to a teepee peyote ceremony
with emerson a navajo man who claims his grandfather was a great shaman
he wants to recapture this

i also left that ritual in midstream for the same reasons as i left the temazcal ... i have some lung condition and noone informed me i would have to breathe thick smoke for extended periods of time ...
in the middle of the rite i got up and left ... spending the night out with the coyotes who sang to me all night
the members were furious when i returned and the woman who was the water bearer was crying bitterly as i had never seen anyone cry ... i was not told why she cried but i think i somew\how ruined their prayers by breaking the circle

other members came and insulted me ...
everyone paid $100.oo for this ceremony to cover the costs of the camp, supplies, etc.

the female of the couple from holland knows emerson
... i recanted my experience ... my inability to handle smoke, yet this wasnt considered in my invite to the temazcal, nor was i advised in advance on either occasion what was involved

i had no intention to ruin  anything for anyone ... but i wasnt informed in advance that it would be harmful to my asmatic condition

[7he4uthor]

has anyone here heard of this emerson
luis and martha at quetzalcoatl restaurante in tepic suggested i go with emerson
he did charge everyone for expenses ... 100 x 20 ppl = 2000 dollars usa

azul charged nothing but she also explained nothing in advance
no warning that an asmatic might suffer from dense smoke exposure

no preparation

i have a great respect for native tradition
as i do for my own cultural tradition

what are the thoughts of those here

fraud
legitimate

??

[earthw7]

All i know if you pay money it is fraud
you never pay to pray

[amorYcohetes]

Hi there, you might try looking around this website, there is a lot of information and opinions here.  For example, enter "temazcal" as a search term.  This issue has been discussed briefly in some other posts, for ex. here.  Just make sure you are at the "top-level" page (ie, click the tab saying "NAFPS Forum" from the bar on the upper left of the page) when you run the search, in order to search the whole forum and not just the thread or subsection you are viewing.

Without going into the larger questions of under what circumstances it is appropriate, productive, or safe for any particular individual to participate in the traditional healing and/or spirituality rituals you refer to in your posts, I would just like to mention that from my understanding and experience, the following is true for a traditionally-constructed and properly carried out sweat lodge or temazcal (which are 2 different things): there will be water vapor, which may be heavy, but it should not have smoke at all.

Anyone with more knowledge, feel free to correct me on this.

Good luck with your research, Author.

[tecpaocelotl]

tatas y nanas
[male/female shamans]

Tata & Nana is how a Nahua child says father (tahtzin) & mother (nantzin) in Nahuatl.

[7he4uthor]

Tata & Nana is how a Nahua child says father (tahtzin) & mother (nantzin) in Nahuatl.

that was somewhat helpful ... suppose i coild have googled that.

[amorYcohetes]

from my understanding and experience, the following is true for a traditionally-constructed and properly carried out sweat lodge or temazcal (which are 2 different things): there will be water vapor, which may be heavy, but it should not have smoke at all.

Anyone with more knowledge, feel free to correct me on this.

I may have been wrong about this WRT the temazcal actually.  I'm not sure it came across in my original post that my experience is very limited! (Someone would have had to read my other posts to know that; sorry for not making it more clear.)

I noticed that some research coming out of investigation into cardiovascular health in rural Guatemala, including a couple of recent studies published in 2011, indicated that depending on the construction (specifically the venting) of the temazcal, significant and risky CO² exposure can occur.  This being a small, new body of research, and me not being a scientist, I won't try to interpret it, except to say that I was wrong to make a blanket statement that the traditionally-constructed temazcal would not produce wood smoke exposure.  (Well, to be clearer, it seems this research is making the argument that the temazcal design of many rural Maya communities of today, which is what we on this site would term "traditional," while indeed passed on generationally, has diverged over the last several hundred years from a tradition seen in archaeological sites, which did originally have venting of the smoke.)

A note on my personal take on this kind of stuff: There have been cases where the measurement instruments in badly-designed epidemiological research ("safari science") have been wildly inaccurate, so I always try to follow topics for a while and see what develops, rather than making automatic assumptions out of one or a small number of studies.  I will be keeping my eye on this one.   

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

my only thought on this, as i have no experience/knowledge to stand on in
regards to any ceremony, is that if someone/anyone got "quite angry" at
another for leaving, then it is not a real or valid spiritual environment.

[Sparks]

i met a couple from holland ... the male participating in a sundance rite
near toluca ... i asked him why not just join opus dae ... you can cut and whip your self there into a trance visionary state

I guess this is about Opus Dei, see this paragraph:

Mortification
See also: Mortification of the flesh [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_in_Catholic_theology]

As a spirituality for ordinary people, Opus Dei focuses on performing sacrifices pertaining to normal duties and to its emphasis on charity and cheerfulness. However, much public attention has focused on Opus Dei's practice of mortification—the voluntary offering up of discomfort or pain to God; this includes fasting, or for its celibate members, "corporal mortifications" such as self-inflicted pain (self-flagellation), sleeping without a pillow or sleeping on the floor, fasting, and if compatible with their family or professional duties, remaining silent for certain hours during the day. Mortification has a long history in many world religions, including the Catholic Church. It has been endorsed by popes as a way of following Christ, who died in a bloody crucifixion and who, speaking of anybody that sought to be his disciple, said: "let him deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me" (Luke 9:23).[73][74] Supporters say that opposition to mortification is rooted in having lost (1) the "sense of the enormity of sin" or offense against God, and the consequent penance, both interior and exterior, (2) the notions of "wounded human nature" and of concupiscence or inclination to sin, and thus the need for "spiritual battle,"[75] and (3) a spirit of sacrifice for love and "supernatural ends," and not only for physical enhancement.[citation needed]