The Keepers of The Sacred Tradition of Pipemakers

[White Woman]

Some of us half breeds, (or less) or Whites are more worthy than you seem to think. We may have deeper connections in our hearts than you could ever understand. I for one, recognize the value and teachings of the Buffalo Calf Woman, perhaps more than the keeper of the pipe himself. Arvol Looking Horse missed the not-so-subtle message of the 2 hunters' story; women are not objects of desire without consent. I believe the sacred rites should be taken more seriously than blah, blah, blah. It's too bad Orvol won't be able to look Grandfather in the eye free of shame.

[Laurel]

White Woman,

I don't want to sound harsh or judgmental, but I think if you want to make any friends here you should try to understand how arrogant you sound when you say things like

"I for one, recognize the value and teachings of the Buffalo Calf Woman, perhaps more than the keeper of the pipe himself." 

To me this sounds no different than "I, for one, despite not being a Catholic, recognize the value and teachings of the Church, perhaps more than the Pope himself" or "I, for one, recognize the values and teachings of Tibetan Buddhism, perhaps more than the Dalai Lama himself."

And are you accusing Arvol Looking Horse of sexual assault?  If you are, evidence would probably get you taken a lot more seriously than passive-agressive insinuations. 

Nobody here has called you unworthy, but you're acting in a way that might get you thought of as defensive and/or rude.  

Laurel
(also a white woman)

[educatedindian]

WW, as was already said, not only should you provide proof if you are going to throw out harsh accusations which contradict everything known about an elder. You also should not sidetrack another thread with them. This thread is about another group entirely.

Also, your defensiveness about being white is out of place here (especially on only your second post since joining) and, again, has nothing to do with the thread.

[bls926]

Some of us half breeds, (or less) or Whites are more worthy than you seem to think. We may have deeper connections in our hearts than you could ever understand. I for one, recognize the value and teachings of the Buffalo Calf Woman, perhaps more than the keeper of the pipe himself. Arvol Looking Horse missed the not-so-subtle message of the 2 hunters' story; women are not objects of desire without consent. I believe the sacred rites should be taken more seriously than blah, blah, blah. It's too bad Orvol won't be able to look Grandfather in the eye free of shame.

I am not Lakota and can see the arrogance in that statement. As someone not raised in the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota traditions, there is no way you can even know or understand their spirituality. What you think you know about the White Buffalo Calf Woman you have garnered from books or online; which essentially means you know nothing at all. How dare you?!

White Woman, think about what you've posted.

Laurel said it better, so I'll just leave it at that.

[frederica]

If your Grandmother was from Maine, you know she was not Lakota/Dakota/Nakota.  You should not be using their ways, period.  Your research should lead you to your own nation.

[White Woman]

I was trying to respond to Ravenhair's reply -  "Bla,BLa,Bla didnt any one listen to orvol lokinghorse no!(A man has many chances to live but he ha only one chance to die and when he dies he shall look at grandfather with open eyes and no shame) It is not ok for these people to be going around and teaching this very sacred rite that was given only to us the full blooded indians..."

I didn't think it was okay to be going around teaching the sacred rites as a full blooded keeper of the pipe who has not respected women.

I'm sorry to have replied out of thread. I am not implyiing to know more about your spirituality. I am just spotting hypocracy within. When a leader does not lead by example, how worthy is that? You have only my word and you can take it or leave it. I am not planning on producing any proof, unless I am backed into a corner by the "man" himself. So how dare he, not me.

[White Woman]

Sorry, as I explained to Laurel, I did not mean to qo out of thread.

[White Woman]

I can understand why you saw the arrogance of my statement. Sometimes, I get tired of division in this society. It makes me mad that we cannot all stand as one. I know it is idealist, but that is the way I feel. Don't you get tired of hearing the classifications and categories, and stereotypes that seperate us? I was never one for boundaries. I believe in the interconnectedness of all things. I don't claim to know any body's spirituality but my own. What I mean to say, is I know enough about the Buffalo Calf Woman to understand that Arvol is a hypocrate. And yes, Laurel did say it better!

[debbieredbear]

So how do you mean that Arvil Looking Horse is a hypocrite? Again, you attack someone but have notyhing to back up yur words. And what does White Buffalo Calf Woman, and L/D/N spiritual practices have to do with you? How they conduct their sacred business is up to THEM, not outsiders. And truly, if you are not Lakota/DAkota?Nakota you are an outsider.

[Laurel]

And yes, Laurel did say it better!

White Woman,

Err...I'm not sure what I said anymore given the use of the quote function at 11:26:48.  (-:  (Mods, can that be edited?)

And it's not my spirituality we're talking about.  It's the L/D/N's, and they have a right to share it with anyone they please or with no one at all.  The fact that it has been reduced to pop culture is sickening, unfortunate, and the kind of thing this forum exists to combat.

Some boundaries, even some of those you find inconvenient, are healthy.  People from different cultures can certainly "stand as one" to fight for human rights, or political causes, or anything we feel we have in common.  How you get from there to flinging accusations at the very folks whose religion you claim to practice, I do not know.  Why did you charge out of the gate with a bunch of justifications about your distant Native ancestor and not selling your art?  Could it be you're so defensive because you know you're doing wrong?

What do you offer in return to people whose religion you have appropriated?  Has it ever dawned on you that needed their permission?

Laurel
(still white BTW)

[bls926]

I can understand why you saw the arrogance of my statement. Sometimes, I get tired of division in this society. It makes me mad that we cannot all stand as one. I know it is idealist, but that is the way I feel. Don't you get tired of hearing the classifications and categories, and stereotypes that seperate us? I was never one for boundaries. I believe in the interconnectedness of all things. I don't claim to know any body's spirituality but my own. What I mean to say, is I know enough about the Buffalo Calf Woman to understand that Arvol is a hypocrate. And yes, Laurel did say it better!

Laurel, I think she's referring to your first post and my subsequent not-quite-as-nice comment, where I basically said I should shut up cause you'd said it all better than what I was attempting to say. Notice her comments about "arrogance" and "division in this society"; I'd called her first post arrogant and stated unless she'd been raised in the L/D/N tradition, she wouldn't know anything about these beliefs. Then there's her attempt to defend her belief and what she said about Arvol . . . "I know enough about the Buffalo Calf Woman to understand that Arvol is a hypocrate." Then the final jab at my opinion by saying, "And yes, Laurel did say it better!"

I still wonder why she made that statement about Arvol. While I have heard others criticize him, I don't think I've ever heard him called a womanizer. Those accusations should never be made without proof.

[Laurel]

bls926,

Thank you.  You're right.  But she misquoted me, probably because she didn't quite get how the quote function works, and I hate that; I would hate for any of her words to ever be attributed to me.

No accusations about anyone should ever be made without evidence.  White Woman is handing out freely, and by the yard, the rope with which to hang her.  And that makes nobody look foolish but her.

I can say it better, say it worse, I don't care.  I'm just gonna keep on saying it.
   
Laurel

[Kevin]

A white man's .02 worth: the site needs to be guarded, pipes should not be made but small blocks  of pipe  stone given only to real-deal Indians and nobody else. This pipe stone is for Indians only, nobody else. This is some fundamental stuff here. In light of all the treaty violations, there should be federal funding for around-the-clock security at the site.  Small stone blocks  should be given to  real-deal registered Indians that come to the site, it should never be sent via US Mail (what a spiritual insult) and set a limit on the number of blocks a person can get. This is just an outsider's opinion.

[LittleOldMan]

With respect.  My research indicates that Red Pipe-stone (catlinite) either in blocks or in pipe form was historically a trade item and found its way to many tribes.  Let me say, however that I may be completely incorrect on this.  If so please correct this assumption.  I am an artist in both wood and stone and have been known to carve pipes.  I only use that material that was traditional to MY ancestors, soapstone and steatite (black pipe-stone).  I will not use catlinite for two reasons.  1.  It is sacred to the Lakota, Nakota, Dakota, and other plains tribes.  It would therefore be wrong and dishonorable for me to use it for my pipes.  2. I use only that which was traditionally used by  my ancestors.  See above.  The problem surfaces when those people who are not secure within their own spirituality see something outside their culture that seems to be effective.  Then try to copy (steal) it to fill the vacuum in their own lives.  They fail to understand that there are cultural norms and protocols that must be followed for any ceremony to be effective.  Simply put if it ain't yourn you are spitting in the wind.  "LIttleOldMan"

[earthw7]

I can understand why you saw the arrogance of my statement. Sometimes, I get tired of division in this society. It makes me mad that we cannot all stand as one. I know it is idealist, but that is the way I feel. Don't you get tired of hearing the classifications and categories, and stereotypes that seperate us? I was never one for boundaries. I believe in the interconnectedness of all things. I don't claim to know any body's spirituality but my own. What I mean to say, is I know enough about the Buffalo Calf Woman to understand that Arvol is a hypocrate. And yes, Laurel did say it better!

Laurel, I think she's referring to your first post and my subsequent not-quite-as-nice comment, where I basically said I should shut up cause you'd said it all better than what I was attempting to say. Notice her comments about "arrogance" and "division in this society"; I'd called her first post arrogant and stated unless she'd been raised in the L/D/N tradition, she wouldn't know anything about these beliefs. Then there's her attempt to defend her belief and what she said about Arvol . . . "I know enough about the Buffalo Calf Woman to understand that Arvol is a hypocrate." Then the final jab at my opinion by saying, "And yes, Laurel did say it better!"

I still wonder why she made that statement about Arvol. While I have heard others criticize him, I don't think I've ever heard him called a womanizer. Those accusations should never be made without proof.

Ok as a Lakota/Dakota whom lives on my reservation and know Avrol personally.
I have to say that I am offended by a woman who don't even know her own grandmother then calls herself a whitewoman.
I still wonder where this ideal of our Lakota/Dakota men have followed the white man rules of one wife??
A good man has many wives.
Ok so today we have these stupid laws.
If you know the history of the keepers of the pipes they were people who had wives, husbands and children.
I still don't know where the ideal came from that our spiritual leaders must be like that guy named jesus who they killed.

If you don't speak my language don't use my ceremonies, if you want to be ones of us move your butt to the rez.
We are not one group and nor should we be.
Second the pipe is used by many nations but it is only considered by the Lakota and Dakota to come from the White Buffalo calf Woman.
Pipe stone at Pipe stone quarry is sacred and has a story as to the reason why, yes, other tribes have come for the pipe stone and traded for it.
Today too many want to "own" a pipe in reality no-one owns a pipe it is for the people.
If a pipe is not blessed by ceremony it means nothing.
All these people who want to claim a pipe should be ashamed of there self because you can not own the people.