Do I have this right?

[Diana]

Hi clearwater!  The confusion is due to the fact that the name I chose for the thread has an accidental double meaning.  By “Do I have this right?“ I meant, “Did I get this right?”  On this site of course everyone took it differently.

Oh, for crying out loud!  People here have a LOT of issues with the misuse of spiritual traditions.  You’re all OF COURSE creating confusion and guilt in many people.  I suddenly feel on tip-toe in the world, wondering, “Is this OK?  Is that OK?”.  I want to know what the rules are.  You should all be glad that I do and realize this is a natural part of non-natives learning how to respect native ways.  But you seem to want people to change without teaching or helping them.  Why are you going on with wise, reproving comments like, “You are a free human being… What does it matter what I think, or anyone on this board thinks, about you or what you are doing or have done?”  The thing is YOU ALL THINK WHAT I THINK AND DO MATTERS!  AND ALL NON-NATIVE PEOPLE LIKE ME!  THAT’S WHAT THIS FORUM IS ABOUT!”

I’m losing it!  I’ve gotten almost nothing but disparagement since I joined this forum.  That’s what I meant when I said people are sour here.

My questions are not silly.  And I didn’t answer my own question (as though THAT’S a bad thing).  I waited until I got feed back from people on this site.  How dare you accuse me of answering my own question?  YOU’RE silly!  Take that!

Yeah, I know, you’re “Just asking”.

crash and burn...crash and burn. Now who didn't see this coming?

[Defend the Sacred]

Hi Kathryn!  Why shouldn’t I ask you people to vet one of my emails?  Is that a crime?  It’s what I actually said to someone.  I was worried whether I had said anything wrong, and I wanted some help with it.  I wanted you to see the exact words to judge them.  You guys are the experts.  And I was worried about the entire email.  Everyone has been focusing on the part about Buddhism, but I was worried about all of it.  I guess I got the first paragraph right because no one has commented on it.  I didn’t regard that email as personal.  No personal information was included.  I mentioned Guatemala City, since I thought people on this forum might be glad to know that their message had just spread a little bit more.  Was it a crime to tell you where he lives?  I gave him advice on Buddhism because he asked me for advice on Buddhism.

What do you mean by “Since you are neither Buddhist nor Native, why are you dispensing advice about these things?”  I notice that everybody has been dispensing knowledge about Buddhism on this thread, which is a type of advice.  And why are you mentioning Native as a qualification?  Being Native doesn’t qualify you to talk about Buddhism.  The fact is, people just talk among themselves from time to time about religions.  It’s ridiculous to think they’re going to ask Natives or religious specialists for permission every time.  I did much more than what most people do by asking for help here.  If you people told me I had made an error I would have written him again to correct it.

Everybody here is so sour.  I looked at the humor section and it wasn’t funny.  It was mostly anger.


(Yikes!  What I've just said!  I’m going to put on a helmet and head for the hills.)

 

(emphasis added)

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Gwaewael, from my perspective, for whatever it's worth, if you're solid with who you are
then there would be no reason to feel guilty or confused unless you are actually doing
something that you are finding out is wrong.

Also, if you had read the board forums you'd have seen one that says "New members start here"
right up at the top in capital letters. Click on that and you can see 3 posts, one that says, "before
you post" Right under that is "DISCLAIMERS: All New People Must Read" and beneath that is
"PURPOSE OF THIS GROUP: All New People Must Read"

It really isn't hard to see/find those posts.

When you jump into a pond without looking, chances are you're not going to land how you
think you will.

Take some time, read some of the threads.

As for the jokes on new age peoples, well, take some time to research what is here about
those new age people, and also do some searching on your own for what is not here. There
are plenty of other blogs, forums, even youtube video's that debunk so many of their claims.
So, jokes are made about them and what they do.

I'm not sure why you say you got nothing but disparagement when even I'm here trying to
give you some guidance on how to deal with the unpleasant things you may see about the
new age people that you are one of. Research, read what has already been researched and
don't be afraid to see the many scams that there are for what they are, scams.

I personally have not found the people here to be judgmental without cause. Meaning, they
research people and if there is reason to make a judgement on what those people are doing,
then they make it. With good reason. No one finds what you think or new age people think
matters, what matters is if they are taking from traditional practices and bastardizing those
items because they have no clue what they are doing. And in the end, are really only harming
their self and others by teaching wrong things to others and passing along the fraud as real,
and hurting the real people who's practices they have stolen.

What good karma can come from hurting thousands of people not to mention, pissing on the
spirits as well?

Anyway, I hope in your time off you will a bit of time each day to actually read the forum. Start
with the beginning that I pointed out above, and then just click and read wherever, that's what
I did when I started.. because as you say, there is SO MUCH info here it can be hard to know
where to start.. so.. start anywhere..

Be well.

[clearwater]

Hmm. Well all I know is, I rarely post here. This afternoon I clicked the wrong thing on my browser, and it dropped down the newagefraud.org bookmark. I thought, well I haven't been there in a while, so I came here to the forum.

I rarely come here. I post here even less...

So this was the first thread I clicked on. I read what I read, and posted what I did.

So All I know is, something brought me here today, and I'll leave it at that.

As I said before Gwaewael, whatever is troubling you, I wish you well.

That's the best I can do. Hopefully, that's enough.

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

One other thing I want to add Gwaewael,

You are a stranger to me, I have no way of knowing what you mean, or don't mean. I
do not know you so I do not know .. sometimes have to realize that people who don't
know you in any way at all, will not know what it is you meant or were trying to do, as
opposed to those who know you well and so therefore, know.


So, a quick sentence to clear up a misunderstanding of what you've said/written helps
a lot instead of getting mad at us for misunderstanding.. I often type things that
are read in a way I wasn't expecting. I appreciate it when someone asks wtf did I
mean by that? Otherwise, how would I know that what I said was not clear to them,
although perfectly clear to me?

[Smart Mule]

Hi clearwater!  The confusion is due to the fact that the name I chose for the thread has an accidental double meaning.  By “Do I have this right?“ I meant, “Did I get this right?”  On this site of course everyone took it differently.

(yes I know I am not clearwater)I took what you said as "Did I get this right?"

Oh, for crying out loud!  People here have a LOT of issues with the misuse of spiritual traditions.  You’re all OF COURSE creating confusion and guilt in many people.  I suddenly feel on tip-toe in the world, wondering, “Is this OK?  Is that OK?”.  I want to know what the rules are.

Yep, we sure do have a LOT of issues with the misuse of spiritual traditions!  Indigenous peoples are subjected to genocide every single day.  Did you know that it was illegal for us to practice our traditions until 1978? Did you know the government is still trying to prevent indigenous peoples from practicing our spiritual traditions? Here...in the United States?  Please take the time to check this site out http://www.winnememwintu.us/.  The state of California refuses to protect young women during their coming of age ceremonies.  I understand that it is difficult to know what the right thing to say and do is and that it can be intimidating.

You should all be glad that I do and realize this is a natural part of non-natives learning how to respect native ways.  But you seem to want people to change without teaching or helping them.  Why are you going on with wise, reproving comments like, “You are a free human being… What does it matter what I think, or anyone on this board thinks, about you or what you are doing or have done?”  The thing is YOU ALL THINK WHAT I THINK AND DO MATTERS!  AND ALL NON-NATIVE PEOPLE LIKE ME!  THAT’S WHAT THIS FORUM IS ABOUT!”

No one expects people to change without teaching or helping them.  However, please understand that different people have different ways of teaching and helping just as different people have different ways of learning.  No one here is obligated to change their teaching and helping methods to suit each person who comes to learn.  That's not how it works  If you slow down a bit you can figure out which posters are helpful with your manner of learning.  I am not sure what you mean by all non-native people like you.  

I’m losing it!  I’ve gotten almost nothing but disparagement since I joined this forum.  That’s what I meant when I said people are sour here.

Gwaelwael I have no idea what your history is and it is none of my business.  You seem to be taking much of what is being said to you as a harsh personal judgement.  There is a difference between taking a person to task when they say or do something inappropriate and disparaging them as a person.  I understand that you might not like the manner in which things are being said.  Please understand that there are people here that in turn do not like the manner in which you are saying things.  I'm sure that when you reacted harshly to earth for example, you did not realize that she is a respected elder and has done considerable work for her community and the ndn community at large. 

sky

[clearwater]

Well I certainly admit I did misinterpret the meaning of the thread title and I apologize for that. But prior to posting, I read this thread, as well as the other thread you began about what name to apply to Indians NDN ndn, etc. Although I misunderstood the title, I don't think the tonality of your posts was really lost on me. So my posts here were within that context.

I guess what comes through to me through all this is a driving need for validation or approval. It seems to me you have come to this forum and assigned it a status within your perception of how it is or what it is.

I thought you guys were experts with an awareness of world-wide issues relating to native religions (like Tibetan Buddhism.)  I really did.

That's what I mean. This forum is comprised of diverse individuals from diverse cultures and backgrounds. There are a lot of wise folks here, you will find in time, but it's never a wisdom and answers on demand thing. It seems as if you are upset that this place is not meeting up to your expectations of it. Drop your expectations and you won't be disappointed maybe? Just sayin'

As critter said so well, it's hard to know, through written words, all that you mean. Tonality does come through, and to me it just seems, well, negative. But I do see you are receiving back what it seems you're putting out.

I just would suggest that maybe you consider you look at what I have jut pointed out, that from my perspective, I am seeing in you a driving need for this external validation by these folks you have put on a pedestal before you. If you keep doing that, I believe you will continually be disappointed and let down.

I think many of the folks here are willing and patient to meet you eye to eye on many things, but you can't look up to them, nor can you look down to them. I sense a little of both going on here. For example, you are openly here, admiring those who seem to be kind to you, like sky, and mocking those who seem to disagree with you, well, like me. That's what I mean! Just treat everyone the same!

Anyway, in my clumsy attempts to be helpful, I hope my points are still able to come through. Regarding me saying you were answering your own questions, please understand I am not being condescending. My read through this thread is, you answer your own questions in defense of your right to ask the questions. I guess tomorrow when I have more time and energy I can cut and paste quote and all that stuff, to illustrate what I mean, but you need to understand that I was saying that because you already hold the answers to the things you ask. I am not mocking you. I am trying to help you.

I think everyone through both these threads is too. Everyone has a different way about them. When you dig a little deeper past the words on your screen, there is a human being on the other end, and like you they have feelings. And, many of these folks are picking up on your feelings. If you can recirprocate at that level, a lot of the anger would go away, in my opinion.

But then, that's just me. I do wish you well.

[Gwaewael]

Many of you have just said kind things, and I thank you.  But many of the people on this forum are too rough for me, and the threads I started just keep going and going and going.  I keep thinking, "If I say this, they'll stop."  Then I'm disappointed because there's more posts.  Then I think, "If I say that they'll stop."  But they keep coming.  I can't handle it.  I'm drowning.  Nothing I do is right here.  Please remove my name from your member list.  I can read your posts without being a member.

[clearwater]

Speaking again for myself, I personally don't have great wisdom to impart to you. Well, none that you would not already know. All I do is try to apply common sense (which is uncommon these days) and see what happens from there.

As one who has launched his own threads on other internet forums that I wish I hadn't, (I can tell you from my own experience) you need to understand that sometime once you launch these boats, these threads, they may take on a life of their own you did not intend. It more or less reflects the realty of humanity, that you can't control or direct the thoughts or feelings of another. You can only control your own thoughts and feelings. And that alone would be enough. The world needs more of this, you agree?

What I have found, when I find myself in these situations, is that an apology can do wonders to heal. If you don't feel that inside you then you probably will respond negatively to what I just said. But when you have, as you say, tried saying this or that -- which you certainly have the right to do I suppose --  I don't see any contrition or any self-reflection on your part. You know, maybe, just maybe, your way of presenting yourself can be perceived as a tad aggressive, can be perceived as demeaning of others, and can be perceived as a bit angry. I'm not saying that you are this way as a human being, in real life, and clearly your participation is causing you stress, so it is what it is. So what are you really like? I don't know the answer to that yet. It's really not for me to decide, but it is for me to witness.

So again, for me, once I learn that I have stepped to some doo doo I didn't mean to, once I see that and understand that, then I always issue an apology if I believe I have been wrong or wronged another. I don't mind admitting if I am wrong, I don't like being wrong, but I am far from perfect and at many levels, I am a baby pooping in diapers. Here in this thread I apologized to you for misunderstanding your thread title. My bad.

Time off may do some good it certainly will not hurt you. May I suggest that during your down time, you consider, maybe, clearing your mind and opening your heart, just a little more, and re-read these threads through the eyes of others instead of only through your own eyes, and you may see them in a different light. My guess is you may just see kindness, and even a paternal kind of frustrated love, behind the harshness. And if you do, you will see the reason for the reception of your perception.  (Wow that sounds like it could be the title to a song or something.)

It's there if you (take another) look.  In my opinion, of course.

= = = = = = =

Hi clearwater!  I assume you’re Native?  Hello.  I’m very happy to meet you.  This is exciting.  How would you like to be called?

Gwaewael, it's hard for me to tell if you are being facetious here or simply didn't fully read my earlier post when I stated:

I am neither Indian, or Buddhist. But I find a lot of the jokes to be wry humor, but that's just me

... so I am just repeating it here for your benefit.

[earthw7]

I think for it is a cultural difference when you dont know each person culture a person then makes those mistakes,
Native always have humor when writing of talking, some people get offended by our humor but it is the way we are.
even in our sacred ceremonies we make fun of each other or laugh because we believe that nothing is too sacred for
laughter it is grift from the creator.
each person has lesson to learn and sometime we tend not look at the lesson our brain tells us they are mean to me
so we never learn the lesson, Somewhere people started the myth that all Natives are these peace loving people
when we are warriors first, When fighting for our right to live; our right to pray; our right to exist; we tend to say
things it is not our intent to hurt people feeling it is our intend to save what is ours

[clearwater]

Gwaewael, you stated that...

 I can't handle it.  I'm drowning.  Nothing I do is right here.

So I'm going to take your metaphor and run with it for a moment...

I am sorry if I may seem flip here. But my read through all these threads is (and I understand your sense of being overwhelmed) it seems to me, you have been thrown a few life preservers along the way. No need to drown.

What I see is, I suppose, you can choose to hold onto hurt feelings and feel like you are drowning, or you can take ahold of a life preserver that's been thrown your way quite a few folks, and be open to the help that's offered. It's just that maybe the help is coming in forms you didn't foresee or expect. Sometime help comes only when you are receptive to it, in forms you could never have predicted...

When it comes to emotional health and well being, the metaphor is not lost. It's kind of like that, sink or swim. Growth happens as you let thing go and open yourself up to something else. And it can be scary as hell. Or not. I've heard that drowning can actually be pretty peaceful... after the freaking out part runs its course ...

To take ahold, you need to let go of a few feelings, and maybe a few notions, that's all. That's kind of what I see going on here, described through your own metaphor. I'm sorry, but that's how I see it. I don't mean to be flip or be speaking with authority or status I may not or don't have.

But then again, I'm a would-be hippie wannabe Indian newage reject so what the hell do I know? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain LOL.



Anyway, I hope I have mitigated my own harsh words to you. Just tryin' to help...

[Gwaewael]

Hi clearwater!  Thanks for your comforting words.  I now want everyone here to know I'm mentally ill.  I was planning on keeping it a secret, but now I think it might be better to say it.  You guys are really rough.  Scientic tests on people like me show that parts of my brain are smaller than they're supposed to be.  Those functions don't work.  For one thing I have problems with memory.  As an example, I was in a dance group for three years, and I would review everyone's names regularly because I was having problems remembering, but I still had difficulty thinking of some of their names even after THREE YEARS of working at it.  Some people here want me to remember they've said, "I'm Native" or "I'm non-native" in a passing comment.  I've been accused of not reading their posts because I don't remember these comments.  I just don't remember things well.  I literally can't remember what I did yesterday.  I assume you all remember what you did yesterday.  It's also known that people like me keep reacting over and over to the same stimulus, where a normal person would stop reacting and calm down.  Here there's been one critial post after another.  I've just been crying and crying and crying.  I can't stop.  Someone wondered if I was being rude when I said, "Are you Native?  Hello.  I'm happy to meet you."  Yes, that does sound dumb.  No, what I meant was, "Hello.  I'm happy to meet you."  I feel privileged to meet someone Native.  I was imagining that I was meeting them in person and shaking hands.  That's what I would like to do.  And I can't possibly be as horrible, rude, and privileged-thinking as people are saying.  In fact I know I'm not.  The one Indian I have met in person talked to my husband later (they work together) and said, "I just met your wife.  She's a sweet-heart."  If you want to know what tone I'm using when I'm writing, I started out being friendly and sometimes now I’m angry.  By the way, for the person who bolded the words, "you people", it's a mid-western plural "you", like "y'all" in the south.  I also use, "you guys" in the same situations.

So go ahead, everyone.  Attack every word I just said.  I think an easy start would be to refuse to listen to what I'm saying and claim that I'm just making excuses.  Who's first?

[Gwaewael]

Oh, and I'm referring to the only Native I know by the generic word "Indian" because he might think his tribal affiliations are private.  I would need his permission to list them on a public forum.

I wonder, will some creative person figure out how to attack me on THAT comment?

[snorks]

I do have a brain injury (traumatic) and am having problems with following any of this discussion. 

However, I do think that sometimes just stepping back and just letting the thing be is a good thing. 

[earthw7]

I am sorry but i did not see one person attack you, what is seen is many people trying to explain cultural difference
Now we know that you are ill so i will put you in my prayer list for the day for healing,
I will try to explain a little: This is not being mean to you it is explaining:
Correcting a person is not wrong, it is being helpful so i see so many people trying to be helpful
to explain to you the difference in cultural ways,
I think you getting defensive so too fast maybe in your life time you had to be like that
but in our cultural way we usually listen to what is being said to see if their is a lesson in it for us to live better.
When dont read the whole post and get to a part where you feel that someone is condemning you
instead of explaining to you difference you brain shut down and then instead of a lesson it is about how you feel
and you never get to the lesson part because your mind wont let you because your struck in the emotions part
To understand all that is being said here one must take it as a lesson because at times you are talking
about another people's culture in which most people do not understand.  Person can only see the
world from the culture they grew up in unless they open their mind.
Everyone here is constanly put up whether of not they are Native because they understand
that if they are not they can not speak for us and we give thanks to those who do that and
respect us as a people. You will see it is almost all the post no matter who people are communicating with,
if you met a native person they would tell you who they are by their band nation and family it is
a culture thing that happens. You dont have to remember who is native and who is not people will remind you though all the post as a respect thing.