Lime Tree

[Lime Tree]

Thank you, earthw7, for filling me in.
A lot of what you write I heard in bits and pieces from different people - but that did not seem to make sense as a whole. Also because I heard other things, that did not fit in.

I love to look at other cultures to grow a better understanding of the culture that I am part of. Like I also read about the (European) Middle Ages.

I do not know what to say further, but thank you.

PS: A thing that I learned from this website is, that almost all of the teachers in this field that I followed workshops with in the seventies and eighties went astray - got in trouble with power and with sex to say the least. I knew that of some - but it seems to be the general pattern.
I am glad that I also had teachers in totally different fields - like woodcarving.

[Odelle]

Hi Lime Tree,

Welcome to the site. You say, it seems to be the "general trend" that the "teachers" (I assume you mean New Age/spirituality teachers) went "astray", chasing after sex and money. This is an interesting observation. Why would these people just become this way? I think, rather, it is a sign that these things--money and sex and power--were what they were after, from the very beginning.

[Lime Tree]

Hello Odelle,

To say that they were after sex or power from the beginning is good enough if you want to tell your daughter or fiancée to stay away from them. But that is not my situation.
At least of Margit Bohdalek I saw that she was eager for power, but at the same time knew that that was dangerous for herself and for others. So time and again she had to force herself back in humility, and she did. (I do not know her life story - she was in her early and mid-twenties when I met her. At that time she first assisted Harley Reagan and then broke with him.)
Of Ronald Chavers I got the picture, that he liked and needed the admiration of his students too much. A friend of mine said (around 1980): "It is so sad that none of his students really understands him."
Admiration is a hard thing to handle. In the film Kumaré, there are episodes where that is made obvious. I suppose it would be wise for those who grow into power, to learn how to handle admiration, sexual longing, and the urge to spare oneself (and thus mislead others). To see it that way helps me more than seeing these people as bad-from-the-start.
There are so many people here in the Netherlands that think they can teach because they know some trick or because they followed the course and bought the T-shirt.
Sorry if I sound like a sulky old man or if I am getting off-track in terms of what this website is for. 

[Defend the Sacred]

To say that they were after sex or power from the beginning is good enough if you want to tell your daughter or fiancée to stay away from them. But that is not my situation.
...
To see it that way helps me more than seeing these people as bad-from-the-start.

I think it's important in this work that we learn to see the truth, no matter how painful.

[Spydr]

To say that they were after sex or power from the beginning is good enough if you want to tell your daughter or fiancée to stay away from them. But that is not my situation.
...
To see it that way helps me more than seeing these people as bad-from-the-start.

I think it's important in this work that we learn to see the truth, no matter how painful.

I agree Kathryn.

[Coastrangechild]

I don’t quite know how to say what I have to say … So I am just going to say it. I think part of the breakdown/interpretation is that Limetree is from the Netherlands. Not that the Netherlands is bad or there is anything wrong with it, but it is very removed from the States. So the gap in understanding is much larger. Imagine the level of misunderstanding here in the US, now add a whole Ocean. It is like me trying to understand indigenous issues in New Zealand. The cultural leap is pretty hard. My ex-husband, a tribal member, lived in England for 10 years. And he often mentioned how removed/off the view of Native Americans was in Britain. Sure this is just one guys experience … but it makes sense.  So while the intention I believe to be good, is somewhat detached.
This is just my opinion, and I may be very wrong [disclaimer].

Funny cause I use to live up by the Canadian border (Colville, Kettle Falls) just North of the border is where Sun bear practiced. I knew people he hurt and people who were very angry/aware of what was taking place. I remember attending a festival outside Tonasket where one of his “students” was running a “Sun Bear” sweat lodge. 

There were tons of drugs at this festival, I remember sitting on this hill, really high on LSD overlooking the “lodge.” To start with the lodge was covered with black plastic and second it was huge. All day tons of naked people were running in and out screaming, “Come have sex my brothers and sisters, come have sex.” People were outside having sex, other people were just laying around on the ground. I just remember being so high watching this bizarre spectacle/orgy/sweat lodge.

There was NOTHING sacred about it, it was totally F*ckd. The fact that it was set up badly, the fact that people were high, the fact that people were running in and out, the fact that I could sit and watch, the fact that people were having sex in the lodge … it was just so wrong. And as high as I was, I remember this strong dirty feeling; pure disgust.
So to say Sun bear is just an idealist? I don’t consider you stupid or a fraud. I consider you very lucky that you were not fully violated. Because this is what was happening to many people. And in someway you were violated. Your trust, desire for spiritual connection,  and good will was violated when he sold you that pipe and took your money. The whole reason this site is here.

Can you be a spiritual and enlightened person? Absolutely. We are all spiritual beings. And you have your own gifts in your own way. People are upset when the last fragments of their way are bought and sold under false pretense. Not necessarily at you p[personally. But at a myth and stereo type that is perpetuated and ultimately devalues culture.
It is easy to follow what somebody else says. What is hard is to find and trust your own intuition. Maybe the smoking and use of herbs speaks to you spiritually. That is valid. However, I think – can’t speak for another – but I think what bothers people is when their tradition is misrepresented and  used to further enhance/validate your journey.

Coastrange

[Coastrangechild]

I would add that people like sun bear commit a kind of spiritual molestation … I truly believe that. And in my way, it is called dirty magic.

[Lime Tree]

Thank you, Coastrange.
    " Your trust, desire for spiritual connection, and good will was violated     . . .    "
I will need some time to digest that. See why this touches me. And in how far this is true for some people around me.

[Coastrangechild]

To clarify - I don't really know that ... it isn't for me to say. But I do think that many people have good intentions and really just long for a kind of connection and spiritual understanding.

That as an intention is good and well intended. Some people take advantage of that, which is not good.

[Lime Tree]

Hello,

A week ago I wrote to the members of our group, that I come to the conclusion that we have too little knowledge and understanding of what it is to have a pipe, and that I see too little possibility to get such knowledge. Most of the posters on this forum will feel that that was obvious. It was not for me.
So I wrote them that I will see them - as planned - next Saturday, but only to say goodbye and clarify my decision, if needed. Maybe I should stress here at the forum, that I am sorry about this decision. I do feel comfortable with my pipe. But as I said, in recent years people come to our group looking for guidance or teachings. That is a very different thing, in my view.
Obviously, some people are trying to talk me into staying in the group. We will see.

I am telling you this, because visiting this website regularly and the reactions I got earlier had a strong influence on the fact that I see things this way now.
I want to stress, that I myself will not celebrate this as a victory of truth. This is an acknowledgement of the fact that I am at a loss, and lack the means to find my way. So I am stepping out of it. I still have to make clear to one or two friends that I am not lacking inner guidance, but lacking connection to the outside world, in this respect. (I mean on the theme of praying with a pipe.)

[Epiphany]

Lime Tree, I think stepping away from things that we don't understand is great  Being uncomfortable, admitting we don't know everything, and making the decision to leave things alone that are not ours - all good.

I think we non-NDNs also need to learn to get over ourselves. When we do the right thing, we might not be applauded, we might not be praised and celebrated. But we should keep doing the right thing. It isn't always about us.

[earthw7]

I want to thank you Lime tree it made me cry to think someone out there heard our crys,
we only ask that our ways be respected and just step away is the first step into understanding,
I know that the answer you look for are inside of you and the peace you want not in anothers
stolen culture thank you

[Lime Tree]

Thank you, Earthw7; thank you Piff.

[Lime Tree]

So last Saturday I saw my friends. One of them had proposed to all, that if I wanted, I could decide how I wanted this meeting to be organised. It was supposed to be freezing or raining, and I decided I would explain my view in the sweat lodge - the only place to sit warm and dry.
The other members were very supportive to me as far as this was my personal thing: being in a situation of not-knowing, and also the despair of living in a world that it heating so far, that the effect will be devastating for most life forms on earth.
In the week before, and also half a year ago, I saw that some wanted to see my doubts as my personal thing and personal situation. Only after the gathering was over, I saw that the things that I see as a problem of the group had not been addressed, or at least not convincingly.
It is hard to communicate about these things here on the forum, because the same things have a very different feeling tone on this forum from in that group. The same things that are felt as support and inspiring there are seen as misleading and nonsense here.
(In my view, faith is not prescribed by logic. Compare hope: you need to have hope when you least expect a good outcome. There is nothing logical about hope. In the same vain, something that is inspiring need not be logical.)
I told them at the end of the meeting, that I had a feeling that I would see them again. But that probably my view on the situation would be different in three days time, and again different in three weeks time.

Each person in the group told me that they would respect whatever decision I take, and will support me in what I see as right.

I like to add, that in the last weeks I meet with the theme of being-present-in-a-hostile-environment in various ways - not really personally, but I see it around me - and also the theme of teaching my eyes not to see hostility when there is none. In other words: having trust and allowing support.

[Lime Tree]

I just wrote the members of this group again. My second farewell letter. I am sad now. That was to be expected.
On this forum it is proper to say, that I did not mention the theme of cultural appropriation in my letters to them.
With something that should be a guiding principle in one's life, one does not only want one's own integrity and intuition, and exchange with friends - one also wants a broader connection: to history of ones's culture, to generations that went before us, etc. We will see what life brings me.
OK. I suppose I will speak on the phone with each of them in the next weeks. I suppose they will not any more try to keep me.