Lime Tree

[Lime Tree]

Hello,

I am from the Netherlands. I followed workshops with Harley Regan, Sun Bear, and a few others mentioned in the fraud section. Also read some books from anthropologists on American Indians.
I am over 60 years old and had time and reason to read books from C.G. Jung and about mandala's, kundalini, psychotherapy.  There was a time that I danced a lot and I am picking that up again.
I found this website in my search to get a better understanding of what it is to carry a pipe.
In my view, one should never stop to grow up - that is: to enlarge one's circle of understanding.

[Lime Tree]

Hello again,

After reading for several evenings on this board, I suppose that I will be seen as a fraud here and will be happily burnt down to ashes. We will see.
I bought a (marble) pipe from Sun Bear in 1989, after asking him if he felt OK with me carrying a pipe. I had met him at a few weekend courses. I liked him, and saw (and see) him mainly as an idealist. I do not remember what he had told about being a pipe carrier, but from what he told, I concluded: "If that is what carrying a pipe is about, then I have been a pipe carrier since I was 8 or 10 years old".

I find it hard to fathom what mixture of laughter, anger, or whatever this will bring up in members that post here often.

Since 15 years, I am part of a small group group of Dutch people that carry a pipe. Until recently, the people that were (or became) members already carried a pipe. In the last two years, several people approached us that wanted to become part of the group, or had a vision or something that told them they should pick up a pipe.
Two of us feel comfortable with telling new people how it is to carry a pipe. I do not. The only thing I have to say is: "A pipe carrier is someone that takes responsibility for the world that she/he walks around in".

I searched on the internet to find how I could grow roots, so to speak.
Well, I did learn something. It was sobering.
I feel it would be wrong to turn away and find a more pleasing site.

Well, I get stuck. I read on your site - or on The Ally's Toolkit - that it is no use to tell of my good intentions. Or to try to arouse sympathy. That gives a rather small basis for interaction.

I find, that reading on this website gives me a far better understanding of what social circle/ sub culture I am walking around in. For proper understanding: the last 15 years I gathered with these friends four times a year, doing a sweat lodge. Apart from that I lost contact with the New Age scene. I was more involved in the New Age scene from 1973 - 1993. Looking around now, I see it is all about being happy. In 1975 New Agers fought against pesticides and against pollution.

OK. I stop now.

[earthw7]

Oh My Lime tree i am so sorry that you dont know what you are doing
One you dont have the right to carry a pipe second Sun Bear was fraud
and his followers, you dont buy a pipe, just cause you have a pipe does
not make you a pipe carrier,
There is much you dont know about my culture plus from your post you
are a woman which means you would not be a pipe carried to began with
so much misinformation out there about my culture.
A fraud is a fraud

[AnnOminous]

Hi Lime Tree, and welcome.  It's great that you have been reading here.  There is lots of good information, and often people don't stop to do what you have done.  So good for you.

I wasn't clear from your introductory post whether your question was about you, or somebody else carrying a pipe, so I decided to wait for more information.  I'm glad you wrote again.  I'm not angry, or laughing at you, and I respect that you are asking questions.  I like that you want to find out more, and that you have found it sobering.  Others come here in arrogance, self-righteousness and anger and then it is not very pleasant or informative for anyone.

It seems that you have received information from those with the least credibility:  Frauds and anthropologists.  That's sad, and you are certainly not alone.

There are people from many different First Nations here.  Earthw7 shared some teachings from her Nation; people from other Nations have different Teachings, and here I am referring to her claim that women cannot be pipe carriers.  However, I agree with her that one never buys a pipe.  To have purchased it from a known fraud, well, you already carry the truth about that inside of you.

I hope you will stick around and continue to learn and share.  Again, welcome.

[Superdog]

I think you're worried a little too much.  This board has members who were fooled into believing in folks like Sun Bear and then took the veil off.  I won't laugh at you.  We're all human and we only know what we know.  It's not your fault you were taken advantage of.  The challenge is...now that you're starting to know better...are you willing to do better?

Welcome to the board. 

Superdog

[Laurel]

I do not remember what he had told about being a pipe carrier, but from what he told, I concluded: "If that is what carrying a pipe is about, then I have been a pipe carrier since I was 8 or 10 years old".

Since 15 years, I am part of a small group group of Dutch people that carry a pipe. Until recently, the people that were (or became) members already carried a pipe. ... The only thing I have to say is: "A pipe carrier is someone that takes responsibility for the world that she/he walks around in".

It seems you're still calling yourself a "pipe carrier" and defining that as you want to define it. So yes, people whose traditions you're desecrating will probably be angry about that. They should be.

I feel it would be wrong to turn away and find a more pleasing site.

That's the best sentence you've posted yet, and I'm glad you're reading the site. But I don't think anyone owes you the benefit of any doubt until you stop doing things you have every reason to know are wrong.

[Defend the Sacred]

Lime Tree, I am a non-Native, so can only relay here what I have been told by traditional spiritual leaders from the Plains cultures who use the pipe. Usually non-Natives who are mimicking pipe ceremony are basing it on their fantasies of Plains cultures, so I think this is relevant. I back up what earthw7 has said, in particular, as she is a respected traditional woman who knows these things.

I have been present when non-Natives such as yourself have asked spiritual leaders from these cultures what to do with the inappropriate pipes they have. What I have usually heard is that if they know a traditional person they can return it to, to do so. If they only know ceremony-sellers or other exploiters, it may be best to take it to the woods and bury it, then forget where you buried it (I know of some cases where this was advised, but again, better to have someone traditional tell you).  Whatever you do, you should not keep it.

I also met Vincent LaDuke, aka Sun Bear. I know white people who claim to be pipe carriers because they bought a pipe, and he pretended to "awaken" it for them by holding it briefly. As others have pointed out, LaDuke was a fraud, and should not have misled you this way. He knew better, but he was in it for the power and money.

I have participated with my NDN relatives in efforts to get exploiters to put down their fake pipes. We know non-Natives who refused to listen, and who are still puffing away in their offensive, fake ceremonies. I will tell you that every single one of those people who had a choice to do right, but chose to do wrong, is having a terrible time of it. They have severe insomnia, devastating migraines, and total chaos in their personal and professional lives; they are unable to maintain close relationships and are living in a type of hell. This was all predicted by the traditional people who tried to help them take a better road, to grow some humility and do something truly spiritual.

So... you are at that crossroads now. You have been given information, and which road you take your next steps upon is going to change your life, for better or worse.

[Lime Tree]

There is a connection between identity, culture and (mental) sanity.

To me it seems, that those who are attracted to plastic shamans simply play with their own fantasies and also with their own individual hope. For them, asking critical questions is equal to spoiling the game.

To me it seems, that those who can work with deep layers of identity can do so only from a deep understanding of the culture(s) of the person they help. So, indeed, their own culture.
It seems to me also, that those workers must be able to reach far beyond their own hopes and fears, and must be able to confront not only the hope but also the fear of their (sub)culture. For them, asking critical questions may be very unpleasant, but is needed to keep on the path.

By the way - I am the same Lime Tree that introduced himself here:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3936.0
Yes, Earthw7, I am a male - I somehow liked the idea that you thought otherwise. But this is how it is.
And Kathryn - you told me that I stood at a point to choose. It does not work that fast. Things do change - but some things in life do not depend very much on one conscious decision.

[Defend the Sacred]

Since this continues on that discussion, I'm moving this to your intro thread.

[Diana]

There is a connection between identity, culture and (mental) sanity.

To me it seems, that those who are attracted to plastic shamans simply play with their own fantasies and also with their own individual hope. For them, asking critical questions is equal to spoiling the game.

To me it seems, that those who can work with deep layers of identity can do so only from a deep understanding of the culture(s) of the person they help. So, indeed, their own culture.
It seems to me also, that those workers must be able to reach far beyond their own hopes and fears, and must be able to confront not only the hope but also the fear of their (sub)culture. For them, asking critical questions may be very unpleasant, but is needed to keep on the path.

By the way - I am the same Lime Tree that introduced himself here:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3936.0
Yes, Earthw7, I am a male - I somehow liked the idea that you thought otherwise. But this is how it is.
And Kathryn - you told me that I stood at a point to choose. It does not work that fast. Things do change - but some things in life do not depend very much on one conscious decision.

Hi Lime Tree and welcome, I'm having a hard time understanding what you wrote and who you are writing about. In your first sentence you write " There is a connection between identity, culture and (mental) sanity". Who's identity are you writing about and what culture??? Are you writing about Indian culture or white culture? And mental sanity??? I'm guessing your writing about those unfortunate people who follow and spend money on plastic shamans?

Your second sentence "To me it seems, that those who are attracted to plastic shamans simply play with their own fantasies and also with their own individual hope. For them, asking critical questions is equal to spoiling the game". I understand and agree with you.

Your final two sentences....again very confusing. ''To me it seems, that those who can work with deep layers of identity can do so only from a deep understanding of the culture(s) of the person they help. So, indeed, their own culture.
It seems to me also, that those workers must be able to reach far beyond their own hopes and fears, and must be able to confront not only the hope but also the fear of their (sub)culture. For them, asking critical questions may be very unpleasant, but is needed to keep on the path".
Who are these workers?? Are you talking about plastic shamans or Indians? Layers of identity?? Culture? Again, who's culture and who are these people asking critical questions?? Subculture?? I know I'm asking a lot of questions and maybe english is not you first language, but I would appreciate a little clarification.


Lim lemtsh,

Diana

[Lime Tree]

Hello Diana,

At this time I pick up one thing: layers of identity.

The idea is, that one has an identity within a framework. That framework can be the family, work and education, etc. If an individual comes into a new framework, that individual has to find an identity, or at least a role.

If an individual functions in a surrounding that he does not feel comfortable in, the individual might learn the appropriate role, but still feel "This is not me". So, he does not identify with what he is doing.  In that case one could speak of two layers:
a superficial layer, where the role is, and
a deeper layer.
There will be a pain (of not being able to be oneself) between the two layers.

If one tries just to play a role, staying superficial, then outsiders will see that the deeper layer will take a steering influence.

Thus, an individual can be corrected by his deeper identity.
The idea is that also a culture can need a correction, if the culture as a total is too superficial.

I hope this helps in terms of understanding what I mean.

[Autumn]

Lime Tree, to me you writings seem pretty obscure, so I am not sure that I know what you are saying.  However, from what I am picking up, it seems to me that you are not willing to take personal responsibility for your actions.  This is your quote:

Things do change - but some things in life do not depend very much on one conscious decision.

IMHO, things in life do not depend very much on "one" conscious decision, but on "many" conscious decisions.  You cannot control the events in your life, but you can control your response to them.  Everything is a choice.  You were given wise counsel from Kathryn and you should heed it now: 

you are at that crossroads now. You have been given information, and which road you take your next steps upon is going to change your life, for better or worse.

[earthw7]

I think that maybe i should explain a pipe carrier.
according to our beliefs only:

When you have a camp of 100 people you have one Pipe Carriers.
A pipe carrier make a committment to never do bad things in their lives,
which he has given his life to pray for the people, so he must be ready
at all time to come to pray for the sick, the dying, people in need, he must
put this above all other things. So if people come in the middle of night
he must go or if he has to work he must go to pray instead.
He must work in prayer 24 hour 7 days a week. It is a hard life he has no
life of his own.
(pipe carriers are not women because women have moon time
and cant not be around the pipe so cant go a pray for the people
when they need it.)

On the other hand

Each man has a pipe according to our ways to help him pray and for ceremonies
but he is not a pipe carrier, he does not have that right as a pipe carriers
he must use his pipe when needed for prayers but he is just a common man.

Each women has a pipe which she prayer for her family and children
but she is not a pipe carrier. She uses her pipe to pray for her family.
She is just a common woman.

We see a big difference between a pipe carrier and one has a pipe as
two different things. I guess it is like a priest compared to man who prays.
A woman can be become a medicine woman after she is done with her moon time
around the late 50s. But i never heard of a woman pipe carrier.

I hope this helps, it seems that every non native wants to be a
pipe carrier but dont understand what it means. If they dont know who they are!
and are using the pipe to help heal themselves then they are out of balance and
need to find that center or balance would not have the right to pray for others
because all they do is pass their unbalance life to others. You must be a healed
and balance person to be a pipe carrier.

I am Lakota/Dakota

[Ingeborg]

If an individual functions in a surrounding that he does not feel comfortable in, the individual might learn the appropriate role, but still feel "This is not me". So, he does not identify with what he is doing.  In that case one could speak of two layers:
a superficial layer, where the role is, and
a deeper layer.
There will be a pain (of not being able to be oneself) between the two layers.

I get the feeling this is Nuage speak translating to:
"I will be in bad pain if I cannot get access to ndn religions - so you'd better let me go ahead".

If this is what it boils down to, Lime Tree, I'm sorry: making the repair of one's life the responsibility of other people will not be the answer. And the pain certainly coming with it is you being a pain in the neck.

[Diana]

Hello Diana,

At this time I pick up one thing: layers of identity.

The idea is, that one has an identity within a framework. That framework can be the family, work and education, etc. If an individual comes into a new framework, that individual has to find an identity, or at least a role.

If an individual functions in a surrounding that he does not feel comfortable in, the individual might learn the appropriate role, but still feel "This is not me". So, he does not identify with what he is doing.  In that case one could speak of two layers:
a superficial layer, where the role is, and
a deeper layer.
There will be a pain (of not being able to be oneself) between the two layers.

If one tries just to play a role, staying superficial, then outsiders will see that the deeper layer will take a steering influence.

Thus, an individual can be corrected by his deeper identity.
The idea is that also a culture can need a correction, if the culture as a total is too superficial.

I hope this helps in terms of understanding what I mean.

Heavy sigh.....ok, you're not going to answer my questions and you're talking gobbledygook. Layers of identity?? "The idea is, that one has an identity within a framework. That framework can be the family, work and education, etc". So what you're saying is we all have a different personality or persona for family, friends and work/public. Why are you stating the obvious??

"If an individual comes into a new framework, that individual has to find an identity, or at least a role". I really don't think you're using the word "identity" in the right context, and again you're stating the obvious. We all adjust to new situations that's human nature.

I'm going to stop here because I'll just be repeating myself. I think we all know where this is heading. But I will say this, Lime Tree you not fooling anyone with your newage gobbledygook we've heard it all before, actually verbatim. I think you want to join but don't know how. Like Kathryn advised please read through this forum it will give you an idea of who we are and what we stand for.

Lim lemtsh,

Diana