About me ...

[Ingeborg]

Let's just say I don't simply state things without it having a scientifically established base.

Scientifically established base? No way. The haplo groups do not establish genetic differences.

I know there is a company on the European market selling their mt-DNA tests with great fanfare, using the slogan they could tell their clients which ethnic – and even religious - group their ancestors came from, but scientifically this is simply impossible. If you paid for such a test, you spent a lot of money on BS. And if any haplo group is more frequent in Frisians than in the surrounding population, this has more to do with Frisians being a rather isolated population living in less desirable areas which saw no major migrational moves from the outside. Plus that at least part of the Frisian populations (there are three groups today) kept their independence for centuries. 

And why do you question the reason why I joined here? If I simply stated that I had an interest in ndn culture, would that be satisfactory? It's the reason you gave on April 1 2006.

It is not! First of all, I don't use the singular as you did in „ndn culture“. So this is a nice attempt, LH, but it just doesn't pull off.
My intro, however, is still there for all to see what I wrote.

What users say about themselves in their intro also does not get rated „satisfactory“ or „unsatisfactory“. The intro, but far more the way a new user with a Euro background acts in this forum do reveal, to give a few examples, whether they might be inclined to learn how to behave in an environment differing from the dominant culture, or whether they realise this is a forum with a different set of rules than they know from domcult, and whether they are able to renounce their white privilege and able to integrate. Some do, some don't – some are able to adjust, some aren't. Some will simply disregard anything they might be able to learn here and add long posts blathering on about „I“, „me“, „mine“, etc.

Or would the fact that I abhor people using other peoples' cultures for their own gain, without contributing anything to said cultures - as happens quite often with the Frisians - add further weight?

You mean to imply Frisians have their spirituality stolen by outsiders who sell it for their own profit? :harumph:

Maybe adding the fact that I'm pretty good at researching and would like to help expose charlatans and the like would swing the balance in my favor? Perhaps showing that I went after Kiesha Crowther before joing this forum (a 2nd time) would plead in my favor?

So far, these are mere words. Exposing frauds, however, is not done with dumping some 20-odd links on the ndns and telling them to say „pretty please“ before more details may be supplied.

This is a working forum, not one to indulge in discharging posts. However, all work done is voluntarily – one either does contribute or one doesn't. No one will tell you what to do or whom to research. Your contributions is what speaks for you, not your speaking of intentions and of would, could, and might.

Oh, and being called "a racist" is something I really don't appreciate.

Which – once more – is not what I said – I wrote:

Last not least, genes are not linked to a person's ethnic affiliation. It is simply not possible to determine a person's ethnic affiliation by their genes. To imply this is not only BS, it's racist BS.

But if you think it's more beneficial and helpful to insult me and make sure I don't feel welcome anymore, instead of allowing me to help and expose charlatans using and abusing ndn culture

Again, it's ndn cultureS.
As far as exposing frauds is concerned: what's bin keeping you – you joined this forum 2 years ago.

[Litsehimmel]

Kathryn ...

I totally understand being suspicious about people possibly having alterior motives. I have none. As for me having posted in shaman forums, I have nothing to hide, which is why I provided you with some alternative handles I use on the internet. Yes, I was interested in shamanism. And went around on the internet asking questions, and voicing my opinion. However, nowhere will you see me advertising using native rituals that belong to some other culture. Or promoting stealing from native cultures. I have never gone to a 'sweat lodge ceremony'. I was, however, once dragged along to a 'medicine wheel' ceremony by Hyemeyohsts Storm in 1998 or 1999. I got acquainted with a woman through our children going to the same kindergarten. She was scared to go alone and I went along with her. I listened to Mr. Storm for 5 minutes before deciding to call it quits and being sorry I had said "yes". My bad.

I'm sorry if my personality or motives seems confusing, I get that a lot from people. My mind does skitter from one place to another, and I'm forever curious. The reason for joining, however, was purely because I want to help expose frauds. No hidden agenda, no alterior motives. As simple as that.

LH

[Litsehimmel]

Ingeborg ...


I apologize for writing ndn culture where obviously I should have said ndn cultures. I know there are many different native peoples. There were numerous differences within Surinam alone. Also, my apologies for writing so extensively about myself. I'll refrain from doing so in future.

You mean to imply Frisians have their spirituality stolen by outsiders who sell it for their own profit? :harumph:

You have no idea. Yes, the Frisians do feel they have their identity and (cultural) spirit stolen. The Dutch government uses the Frysk identity to draw tourism and business to the country, yet tries to designate our land as future dump for nuclear waste (which will result in the removal of an entire village and community!) and increased drilling for gas and oil. We are the country's agricultural retards who literally had to fight (during Kneppelfreed or 'Cudgel Friday) in order to even be allowed to use our own language.

dumping some 20-odd links on the ndns and telling them to say „pretty please“ before more details may be supplied.

I literally said If any of these sites or the names that pop up there need more investigation, just yell. As I'm new on this forum and did not know to which extend these sites or the persons connected were familair, I did not want to 'spam' the forum with information people might already have. Nowhere did I say people had to say "pretty please".

As far as exposing frauds is concerned: what's bin keeping you – you joined this forum 2 years ago.

Keeping my kids out of the hands of their criminal and incestuous father, helping my daughter get through traumatic memories and getting back into school and fighting to get my partner's kids out of the hands of an abusive and seriously disturbed mother. Long, boring story.

LH

[Ingeborg]

I apologize for writing ndn culture where obviously I should have said ndn cultures.

But not for misquoting what I wrote? Ah so.

BTW, please do use the quote function in future. You've got enough experience in all kinds of forums, so ours should not pose major difficulties in handling.

You mean to imply Frisians have their spirituality stolen by outsiders who sell it for their own profit? :harumph:

You have no idea.

Actually, *you* happen to have no idea about my family background. Or about my fields of interest.

Anyways, the Frisians are white and will remain white, no matter how hard you try to tell us they are indigenous and oppressed. Just for a minute stop and think how an ndn person will feel about comments like yours when they've got enough experience, in the very first place, with white persons posing as the 'better ndns'.

And regarding minority rights like bilingual school education: as it happens, the Westlauwers Frisians in the Netherlands were in fact the first of the Frisian groups to have this possibility since the 1950ies. And the riots in the 1950ies did not, as far as I know, get off about the mere use of the language, but for bilingual education, for Friisk being accepted in courts and administrations and such. By the 1950ies, the East Frisian dialect of the Frisian language was virtually dead, it remained being spoken in the very small region of Saterland which comprises some six villages. North Friisk was somewhat better off, with pockets of language use existing mainly on the North Frisian islands and smaller pockets far and few between on the mainland. The Westlauwerssche Frisians, on the other hand, were still speaking their language in great numbers at that time, and they still do.

I literally said If any of these sites or the names that pop up there need more investigation, just yell. As I'm new on this forum and did not know to which extend these sites or the persons connected were familair, I did not want to 'spam' the forum with information people might already have. Nowhere did I say people had to say "pretty please".

Errrm, how the eff are people not reading Dutch supposed to decide whether any of the sites you linked need more investigation? Just putting up the links without any further info what these people do, which ceremonies they sell, which culture(s) they exploit, what frauds they claim as their teachers or cooperate with, one may also see as SEO – search engine optimising. Pushing the ranking of these sites. Which is something we do not exactly want to do with this forum.

If your don't know whether a particular fraud has been researched here before – now, we got this nifty search function which comes in quite handy every now and then. Use it, see whether the person has been researched, and if not, write up the info. If they were researched here before, see whether there's new(er) info to add to the thread.

BTW, there were questions about at least one of these frauds, so people actually do want more info, don't you agree? How about doing some translations on this particular fraud? If someone asking you for more info does not justify some efforts taken, then what does? So this in fact does pretty much boil down to having us do a few pretty pleases. If you happen to have read what Kathryn wrote here, and read the threads she linked, you should have realized by now that this is not the environment to give you any pretty pleases.

Speaking of reading: perhaps it's not a bad idea to start reading a few threads in the forum to see how things work here, how we research frauds' acitivities and spread info, and last not least how not to step on toes acting out white privilege.

Keeping my kids out of the hands of their criminal and incestuous father, helping my daughter get through traumatic memories and getting back into school and fighting to get my partner's kids out of the hands of an abusive and seriously disturbed mother. Long, boring story.

I concede this is more than enough to have to face for one person, and I'm sorry you had to deal with such persons and such issues.
However, these 17,300 google results for your nick also may have taken up some of your time.

[Litsehimmel]

Ingeborg,

I did not know you were so well educated on the history of my mother's people, the Frisians. My apologies. I will refrain from discussing it any further, as you obviously are far more knowledgeable on the subject.

But not for misquoting what I wrote? Ah so.

Again, my apologies. I was under the impression I had made mistakes with regard to referring to ndn matters, and did not know I had to apologize to you in person.

BTW, please do use the quote function in future. You've got enough experience in all kinds of forums, so ours should not pose major difficulties in handling.

Obviously, you are right again. I will be more careful in future.

Actually, *you* happen to have no idea about my family background. Or about my fields of interest.

Naturally, I don't. Again my apologies for seeming presumptious and not understanding I needed to take that into consideration.

Anyways, the Frisians are white and will remain white, no matter how hard you try to tell us they are indigenous and oppressed. Just for a minute stop and think how an ndn person will feel about comments like yours when they've got enough experience, in the very first place, with white persons posing as the 'better ndns'.

I don't think I inferred the Frisians were anything but white, but again my apologies. I did not mean to come over as a "better ndn".

And regarding minority rights like bilingual school education: as it happens, the Westlauwers Frisians in the Netherlands were in fact the first of the Frisian groups to have this possibility since the 1950ies. And the riots in the 1950ies did not, as far as I know, get off about the mere use of the language, but for bilingual education, for Friisk being accepted in courts and administrations and such. By the 1950ies, the East Frisian dialect of the Frisian language was virtually dead, it remained being spoken in the very small region of Saterland which comprises some six villages. North Friisk was somewhat better off, with pockets of language use existing mainly on the North Frisian islands and smaller pockets far and few between on the mainland. The Westlauwerssche Frisians, on the other hand, were still speaking their language in great numbers at that time, and they still do.

Again, it is very obvious you know a lot more about my cultural background than I do myself. Please accept my apologies for trying to seem more knowledgeable.

Errrm, how the eff are people not reading Dutch supposed to decide whether any of the sites you linked need more investigation? Just putting up the links without any further info what these people do, which ceremonies they sell, which culture(s) they exploit, what frauds they claim as their teachers or cooperate with, one may also see as SEO – search engine optimising. Pushing the ranking of these sites. Which is something we do not exactly want to do with this forum.

I thought that maybe Google Translate would help out, as I have seen it used in many posts. But again, I was wrong. My apologies.

If your don't know whether a particular fraud has been researched here before – now, we got this nifty search function which comes in quite handy every now and then. Use it, see whether the person has been researched, and if not, write up the info. If they were researched here before, see whether there's new(er) info to add to the thread.

Thank you for that advice. I will use the search tool and see if I can add new info.

BTW, there were questions about at least one of these frauds, so people actually do want more info, don't you agree? How about doing some translations on this particular fraud? If someone asking you for more info does not justify some efforts taken, then what does? So this in fact does pretty much boil down to having us do a few pretty pleases. If you happen to have read what Kathryn wrote here, and read the threads she linked, you should have realized by now that this is not the environment to give you any pretty pleases.

I obviously overlooked the requests for more information. I will get to it a.s.a.p. And again my apologies for not understanding the way the forum works.

Speaking of reading: perhaps it's not a bad idea to start reading a few threads in the forum to see how things work here, how we research frauds' acitivities and spread info, and last not least how not to step on toes acting out white privilege.

I do apologize for seeming to act like a white privileged person. I did not intend to, and I apologize for stepping on toes.

I concede this is more than enough to have to face for one person, and I'm sorry you had to deal with such persons and such issues.

Thank you for that.

However, these 17,300 google results for your nick also may have taken up some of your time.

Yes, they did. Predominantly between the years 2003 and 2008, as I'm sure you noticed. But naturally you are correct in stating I should've spent that time on here and not doing other stuff. Again, my apologies.

LH

[Ingeborg]

LH,

Again, my apologies. I was under the impression I had made mistakes with regard to referring to ndn matters, and did not know I had to apologize to you in person.

Your reference to my intro post gave readers the impression that I introduced myself with a racist comment. It is racist to ignore the diversity of ndn cultures and lump them together as one generic culture. By misquoting me, you – on purpose or not – made readers think this was a point of view I held. This is what one might apologize for. Anyways, I don't give a flying one for apologies which only materialise upon request.

I thought that maybe Google Translate would help out, as I have seen it used in many posts.

Google translations are far from flawless and often hard to understand or even unintelligible. So if and when someone on the forum is able to do a translation, this is preferable over Google Translate. This is where us Euros come in. We're not needed here for a bit of chitchat, but to help provide info, e.g. by decent translations. Many sellers of ceremonies believe their activities take place far away and in a different language. Which works both ways, so in cases warnings are appropriate, I publishing them in both languages, so that the frauds' clients will be able to read the warning. 

And again my apologies for not understanding the way the forum works.

It's been said before: reading a few threads is recommendable. The threads pinned at the top of the boards are a good read for new members, in particular this one: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=2365.0

Further recommendable reading is to be found at Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rassismus
I also linked the German article, as they e.g. introduce different definitions of racism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wei%C3%9Fsein
Again both articles differ, but both cover valuable aspects.

[Litsehimmel]

Hi Ingeborg,

I'm confused whether or not to apologize now, as one the one hand you seem to expect me to

But not for misquoting what I wrote? Ah so.

and on the other hand ...

This is what one might apologize for. Anyways, I don't give a flying one for apologies which only materialise upon request.

So how about we put this discussion to rest and I just do what I'm expected to do, namely try help and expose frauds?

LH

[Ingeborg]

So far I've ignored your sarcasm, because after all it says more about you than it does about me, and despite what you may believe, your sarcasm does not make me look bad but yourself.

You seem to have decided to ignore the advice given to you by several persons. Fine, you're free to do so, but you'd better not expect people to pass you any cheese to the whine later on.

You still don't get it, or pretend you don't: what you're „expected to do“ here is first of all to integrate and to learn. As far as I'm concerned, the time for advice is done with – the ball is in your half of the field and we shall see what we shall see.

[Litsehimmel]

Ingeborg,

First of all, my apologies for the sarcasm. It's (unfortunately?) part of my make-up and generated because I felt I was attacked for having a hidden agenda (which I don't). Also I felt like I was being belittled, and for personal reasons that also generates a form of verbal aggression which obviously was uncalled for here.  And although usually quite good at communicating, I also exell in misunderstanding things. I'll try and keep that particular aspect of my personality in check as much as possible. And no, I have not ignored the advice. Maybe misunderstood part of it, but I have already read the links you provided. I do not doubt you are far more knowledgable in this area than I am. Und das war jetzt nicht sarkastisch.

LH

[Ingeborg]

It seems that you use more than one name, LH, but things are not impossible to find, even if there's some 17,000 Google results.

So you also have been posting under the name of Kya Milo and Saskia Milo – which is not your name in real life.

http://forumtresoar.nl/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2782&p=18414

vrijdag 10 okt 2008 3:05 pm 
posted by Andries Koornstra:
opmerkelijk:
Kya Milo afzender van de discussie op GenForum
en
Saskia Milo pseudoniem van LH

dat kan geen toeval zijn.

Translation:
"Heads-up
Kya Milo, the starter of the discussion at GenForum
and
Saskia Milo pseudonym of LH [Litsehimmel]
can't be sheer coincidence"


Litsehimmel:

zaterdag 11 okt 2008 1:03 am 
Ik laat zo veel voetsporen achter op internet dat een aantal verschillende pseudodingesen af en toe wel handig is. Inderdaad, Kya Milo/Steinhorst etc. en Litsehimmel zijn één en dezelfde persoon.

Translation: „I leave so many footprints in the internet that every now and then a number of different pseudothingies come in handy. Indeed, Kya Milo/Steinhorst etc. and Litsehimmel are one and the same person.

And there's another surprise. Googling the name of „Kya Milo“, an entry at NAFPS comes popping up at page 3 of the Google results:

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=74.5

A user with the nick of „OneTimeUser“ signing their posts with:

„Kya Milo
Lioessens, Fryslân
The Netherlands“

The thread is from 2006. Now, as you keep saying you're so eager to expose frauds – this is some seven years we're speaking of. 2006 also is well within the time frame you claim you were very active, between 2003 and 2009.
However, it seems that you opened up a second account in 2011, signing in as „Litsehimmel“. Then a third one a few days ago, with the nick of „Lytse Himmel“, if memory serves right.

And Ms Kya Milo also shares interesting points of view with the world. Didn't you tell us you never meant to call Frisians „indigenous“? So what's this then?

http://coedpoeth-ward.blogspot.de/2006/12/well-i-have-one-so-why-not-i-suppose.html

Kya Milo, Lioessens, Fryslân (Netherlands) said...
 

[...] The latest plan is to flood major parts of Fryslân and build holiday centres on artificially created islands. Never mind those stupid and retarded indigenous inhabitants.

Emphasis mine.

[Litsehimmel]

Ingeborg,

So you also have been posting under the name of Kya Milo and Saskia Milo – which is not your name in real life.

This statement is incorrect, and the fact that I use multiple names is no secret. How would you know what my name is "in real life" ? And why would I not be allowed to use either a nickname or abbreviated versions of it? My birth name is Milo and my adoptive (step-)father's name is Steinhorst. So I actually have the right to both names. As for the names Saskia/Kya ... the name Saskia was very hard to pronounce for my American fiancé at the time, hence the name Kya.

Furthermore, the post by Andries Koornstra was a semi-sarcastic one, as he is one of my best friends. Your translation of the post is incorrect. It literally reads;

vrijdag 10 okt 2008 3:05 pm
posted by Andries Koornstra:
remarkable:
Kya Milo sender in the discussion on GenForum
and
Saskia Milo pseudonym of LH

this can't be a coincidence.

Nowhere (!) does it say heads-up and I find it very disturbing that you mistranslate a conversation with a good friend in order to make me look bad. However, for the sake of transparency, I have enclosed a screen-shot of my current facebook friends, which both shows Andries is my friend as well as the fact that I have the right to both the name Milo and Steinhorst. I have removed images and/or other friends/family members in order to protect their privacy.

And I have already told Kathryn about the post from 2006 in a pm. I was, indeed, a One Time User at that point. I then registered in 2011 but couldn't remember my log-in details so I re-registered in 2013. Here's the email I sent to Admin:

Hi,

I just found my old login data again. Here's the original email:

NAFPS Forum <admin@newagefraud.org>    Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 2:33 AM
To: saskia.steinhorst@gmail.com
Welcome, Litsehimmel!

Your account on NAFPS Forum has been approved by the forum administrator, and must now be activated before you can begin posting. Please click the link below to activate your account:
http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?action=activate;u=4478;code=4b7fe2c6a9


Regards,
The NAFPS Forum Team.

Sorry if this has caused extra trouble, wasn't the intention.

Warm regards,

Saskia (Lytse Himmel, Litsehimmel, etc)

And you statement

And Ms Kya Milo also shares interesting points of view with the world. Didn't you tell us you never meant to call Frisians „indigenous“? So what's this then?

again is not given within the correct context. It was sarcasm. When I said:

Never mind those stupid and retarded indigenous inhabitants.

I was using the literal translation of how loads of Dutch describe the Frisians: Domme, achterlijke inboorlingen. Here's a link to Google's 188.000 results of "achterlijke Friezen" or retarded Frisians: http://tinyurl.com/dxm6sse

Finally, I never said I was active on NAFPS during 2003-2009. I simply confirmed I was active on the internet, and that was predominantly within the field of genealogy.

LH

[Ingeborg]

You somewhat missed the point of my post, in favour of many words and much evasiveness. The posts from the genealogy forum document that you confirm going by Kya Milo and by the nick of Litsehimmel. This, however, leads to a third account registered by you here at NAFPS. Why three accounts? Obviously, you've been participating in numerous forums for quite a number of years, so you will be aware that multiple registrations won't be tolerated, and you will be aware of what the protocol is in case of forgotten passwords and inaccessible accounts.

Regarding the term „inboorling“ - there is a similar word in German: „Eingeborene(r)“ which is very much out of use meanwhile. Consulting my lexicon as well as Google Translate, I see that the prefered translation for „inboorling“ is „aboriginal“ or „native“, but not indigenous. And we certainly do not have to engage in further linguistic considerations; it is quite obvious that the term indigenous has certain connotations the Frisians don't meet.

I'm also not discussing your opinions re what names you may or may not be entitled to, they speak for themselves. Just so much: we don't care whether people join with their legal name or a nick. A nick is perfectly alright.What's not alright is using different personae per year, or so.

[Litsehimmel]

Ingeborg,

I guess I missed your point regarding multiple registrations, hence seeming to be 'evasive'. When I registered as One Time User that was exactly my intention, a single post. After reregistering in 2011 my attention, as I explained in an earlier post, was demanded elsewhere. The third registration this year simply was because I thought I had lost my 2011 registration data.

I'm sticking to the Litsehimmel handle.

LH

[Defend the Sacred]

Saskia, have you joined the board before with a different account?

I've joined the board with both the name Litsehimmel and re-joined just recently with the handle Lytse Himmel, but that last one hasn't been approved yet I think. I did that because I had lost my other registration data 

By not disclosing the third account, you lied by omission. 

[Litsehimmel]

Kathryn,

By not disclosing the third account, you lied by omission.

I had initially simply forgotten that I had registered in 2006. After my 1st post dated Dec 7, 2006 where I just wanted to hand over some info I found on Maggie Wahls, I posted a 2nd time on Dec 8, 2006 requesting links to trustworthy information on the Cherokee. The latter wasn't answered until May 2008. I think after a response to my 2nd post didn't come I might have come to the conclusion that my question might have been too forward, and I just didn't check back with the forum anymore. 

Or I might have simply forgotten. That happens quite often these past few years because - I don't like telling this but maybe it explains a few things - I am now enjoying the results of many head injuries in my youth and early Twenties. Apparently in the long run they result in insomnia (the reason why I am often posting so late at night) and memory loss. My short term memory is so shot I am capable of asking the same question 3-4 times in mere minutes. It drives my family crazy. 

Again, I'm writing this just to explain things. I tend to forget things, not lie by omission. I don't lie. Simple.

LH