I am an admirer not exploiter of native spirituality

[Manicman]

I guess I had an idealized notion that a spiritual teacher would be the person I could talk to about my life, but having read what you said, it gave me clarity. I am really looking for a confidant more than a teacher. As for "teachings" my guides are doing me just fine. The problem is that the spirits aren't very... human. I am really just looking for some human warmth as I attempt to come to terms with a really large amount of unhappiness in my life up to this point.

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Actually what I really want more than a teacher is a confidant. I'm a highly unique person, and I know a handful of others on very different paths, but I haven't met or talked to anyone who shares much experience with my journey. I really just want someone I can talk to. Problem is the subject matter is pretty sensitive on both a personal and a cultural level.

I've been where you are. First, although we are all unique individuals, none of us is really that much different than anyone else.
We are all just plain and simple common average people living life. It's nice to think you are highly unique, but that's a cloud that
will one day burst. Better to know you are no different than anyone else.

Personally, I find the people who go off on that new age trip, are the ones who think their self to be somehow more unique than
the average person, when in fact, they are not. It's simply an ego trip to stand in front of others and say so.

One thing and probably the only thing I can tell anyone is that first, you are not anything more or less special than anyone else.
And secondly, whatever you think you know is only what you think you know.. and in reality, you really don't know.
And, for the most part, what we personally experience can never be truly shared.

I guess I had an idealized notion that a spiritual teacher would be the person I could talk to about my life, but having read what you said, it gave me clarity. I am really looking for a confidant more than a teacher. As for "teachings" my guides are doing me just fine. The problem is that the spirits aren't very... human. I am really just looking for some human warmth as I attempt to come to terms with a really large amount of unhappiness in my life up to this point.

It's *always* nice to have friends. We are social animals, and the need for like companionship is always there. My life has always
been very alone, and recently, very lonely. And with a great deal of unhappiness to boot. The only thing I can say is from my
experience, look to the things in life that do make you happy and let go of the rest. If that means forgiving, then forgive, if it means
closing some doors on some people and areas of your life, then close those doors and move on.

You may be well advised to seek counseling as well, so that you have someone you can release all these things in a safe and
impartial way.. without feelings of being judged, but with someone who will actually care.

[Defend the Sacred]

Noah, please read the recent posts in the Kiesha Crowther thread. The idea that a very small number of people are uber-unique special visionary snowflakes, and that there are secret teachers waiting to find these rare few people who believe they are having visions, is a really destructive and dangerous meme. And it has zero to do with real, functional, traditional spiritual systems.  It is a belief that is beloved and nurtured by newage isolationist values, however.

Not everyone has visions. But not everyone who thinks they are having visions is right. Without in-person, grounded community to help someone sort the wheat from the chaff, it's at best prone to serious misinterpretation and at worst it's a self-aggrandizing and escapist fantasy, no better than tripping on drugs. If visions don't serve the community, they are worthless.

There are many people on this forum who are seriously involved in the ceremonial lives of their communities. But for the most part, people don't talk about it in front of strangers. In some cases there are prohibitions about discussing things publicly, in other cases it's just seen as arrogant and inappropriate to bring that stuff out for public viewing. This can lead outsiders to think they must be the only person having spiritual experiences. But the truth is, stable ceremonial people tend to draw back from those who show signs of arrogance and Speshul Snowflake Syndrome.

There's a reason humility is at the top of the list in all traditional ways. The newage is the opposite - arrogant, isolated people buy more workshops and bling.

Again, I feel like I have to tell you that I'm not trying to be mean here. But there are some implications in what you are writing that are actually rather insulting. I know you have no idea who all is reading your posts. And you don't understand the cultures of most of the people here or how we might react. But that is kind of the point - when you go on in public like this, all sorts of people are listening and watching.  You have some very experienced people in this thread giving you advice, and I strongly suggest you take it to heart.

[Epiphany]

I guess I had an idealized notion that a spiritual teacher would be the person I could talk to about my life, but having read what you said, it gave me clarity. I am really looking for a confidant more than a teacher. As for "teachings" my guides are doing me just fine. The problem is that the spirits aren't very... human. I am really just looking for some human warmth as I attempt to come to terms with a really large amount of unhappiness in my life up to this point.

Find a therapist you can work with. If you don't like the first, try another. You can find exactly what you want: a compassionate, knowledgeable, trained confidante.

Find someone basic, stable, credentialed, maybe even ideally someone at a clinic who has coworkers and has good accountability to others, checks and balances.

Problem is the subject matter is pretty sensitive on both a personal and a cultural level.

You may feel that this is a problem, but it is not, for a good therapist. Go to a therapist. Everything you are talking about here needs to actually be between you and a therapist.

[Litsehimmel]

I'm going to put my 2 cents worth in, for what it's worth.

*First of, if bipolar runs in your family, your risk of having it as well increases. Furthermore, bipolar also has physical symptoms. Just thought I'd mention that.

*There's nothing new about New Age. Lots of stuff people fork out money for these days has been around for decades, often even centuries. Biggest problem is that modern man thinks that all knowledge should be common knowledge. This in effect results in there being scores of Jack of All Trades, Master of None running around who have a little knowledge about many subjects. The Holy Man or Wise Woman of old, however, did not spend a lifetime of learning for nothing. You just simply cannot obtain a similar level of knowledge in a few easy lessons! And if you're not raised in the same culture, it is virtually impossible to ever truly understand and get the correct depth of knowledge.

*John Donne was wrong; modern man is an island. The total unravelment of social communities, particularly in the Western world, has made people lose one of the most important things they can have in life: a social and communal network to fall back on. Nowadays women have to follow breast feeding classes because they don't get taught by mothers and aunts; people have to fork out dough for shrinks and the like because communal confidants are no longer in existence, and younger generations no longer learn from 'show and tell' by their elders. Hence the increasing urge by - specifically and again - people from the Western world to look for cultures that still have the communal sense, in order to retrieve that which has been lost. Sad.

*When the urge to become spiritual grabs you, start digging for your roots. Of course one might have problems if, like me, your family has acted like a virus and you're basically a Heinz 57, but it's virtually impossible to grow if you're not rooted. And that's the biggest problem with New Agers as well: as soon as they become "enlightened" they seem to soar off into the wide blue yonder and lose all contact with earth. It's an extreme form of escapism.

Want to become spiritual? Get your hands in the earth! Don't look up, dig down! Take off your shoes and walk over the earth (pick a sunny & warm day to start though, or you literally might get cold feet *grin* ) and try to feel the rythm through your soles. Because once you get in touch with where you come from, and what you're a part of, the rest will follow. Guaranteed!

LH

[Defend the Sacred]

modern man is an island. The total unravelment of social communities, particularly in the Western world, has made people lose one of the most important things they can have in life: a social and communal network to fall back on. Nowadays women have to follow breast feeding classes because they don't get taught by mothers and aunts; people have to fork out dough for shrinks and the like because communal confidants are no longer in existence, and younger generations no longer learn from 'show and tell' by their elders.

Just noting that, while the disconnection of modern life has affected almost everyone to some degree, what you are saying above is mostly true of white people. And specifically, urban white people. Not everyone grows up like that. Traditional communities still maintain a lot of what urban, unrooted people have lost.

That said, yes, it's a problem for almost all white people and even some of other backgrounds. Isolation and consumerism make people crazy, and arrogant, and deeply lonely. So much so that it can even lead people with those sicknesses to try to destroy the people who try to help them.

it's virtually impossible to grow if you're not rooted.

Good point.

[Manicman]

I was worried you guys would jump on the "highly unique" part.
As for what Critter said, I am not involved in any new age form of spirituality. I have my own private journey, and have never met someone with similar experiences. So yeah, I do think I am highly unique. I will also openly admit that I have done some stupid self destructive things out of egotism. But I have also found (and this part really bugs me) that people who say, "You need to learn a valuable lesson about humility from me" are not particularly humble people themselves. In fact I think the word humility and the values attached to it can be massaged to serve whatever agenda you want.

When I worked with my last teacher she told me I wasn't surrendering to her because I was too arrogant and all sorts of bad stuff. She turned out to be a full blown narcissist who was seeking to brainwash me. My point is not as long as I can point out other people's shortcomings I shouldn't have to look at my own. That is in itself a pretty narcissistic way to go about life. My point is look at the deep structure. What does this word humility even mean? In my experience it often means, "Fall in line."

After my experience with my last teacher I read an excellent book called the Guru Papers, which really helped me gain clarity on a lot of what had bothered me about spirituality, as well as other stuff. It talked about a number of things which I can't do justice to here, but a lot of it had to do with how lofty spiritual ideals are actually used to manipulate people. This is easy to find in Western monotheism, but I liked that it also took Eastern mysticism to task as well. It talked about how basically in these philosophies unity is seen as more real than diversity, which makes it inevitable to sacrifice diversity to unity. See what I am getting at here?

The book also touches a bit on tribal animistic religions and how members of these culture are more psychologically "whole" than modern Westerners because their underlying belief system doesn't divide the carnal animal nature from the altruistic spiritual nature. However it also comments that in these tribes the method for preserving harmony was to limit individuation, which is not practical in the modern world, given how different and more complex our lifestyles are.

So speaking very generally, I am saying that it is true that individuation has it's dark side: narcissism, self destruction I'm sure you guys can rattle off a dozen more, but I don't think that trying to do away with individuation and saying we are basically all the same is practically viable, or philosophically true.

I am dealing with a very odd situation indeed and I would be very glad to private message with someone experienced in spiritual openings, even if they don't believe me.

[Manicman]

I would also like to say that there are reasons I feel drawn to Native spirituality that go beyond the kundalini aspect I already mentioned. I would really like to private message with someone who knows these things, if possible.

[critter - a white non-ndn person]

Hi,

I'm on my own private journey and have had experiences that I have never spoken of or heard of anyone ever
saying of.. so.. how unique are you .. ?

You missed my point, I believe. 

I've been where you are. Believe me, to consider yourself "highly" unique is a cloud waiting to burst.. but.. don't matter,
think what you will. You're on a special private journey (just like we all are) and have had experiences no one else has
had (just like we all have)..

Humility.. can't speak for anyone about this except myself.. well, that's a true statement for *everything* I say..

But, to me, humility is something very "Earth".. to get down to the ground, to feel as the soil, knowing I am not the sky..
For me it is a feeling. Not a word and not a state of mind or even a thought. It's from the heart and soul and lays me
to the ground, as I said.. not the sky.

Also, I did not imply you were involved in the new age thing.. I meant that the new age peeps who do get so involved
are the ones who like to think their self special, and more unique than others.. it's a fault that will fall. I didn't word it
correctly so I do understand why it was interpreted as such.. but I didn't mean you were in with the new age thing..

Be well.

[Manicman]

Yeah I guess I did miss your point. Sorry.
I will also say that the cloud has already burst. I have already gotten myself into a bunch of embarrassing stupid situations because of my own foolishness.
However I still think my journey is somewhat unique. Because I can't seem to find anyone who has been through the same thing. Again: is there anyone willing to private message with me?

[Manicman]

What I wish to talk about is related to a lot of what has been said here. Finding my roots. Mental illness. All sorts of stuff.

[Litsehimmel]

I think you might be confusing individuality with communal spirit. The one does not rule out the other, but unfortunately these days the one seems to exist without the other. Community is something which has been lost specifically in Western society, hence the urge many people have to retrieve it. Even if it's not theirs.

As for reading books which give you important insights: always remember that the content of those books is just one person's personal view of a certain subject. It may strike a chord, or a whole chorus, depending on how it's written, and when you read it. And there will always be books who counter said book, presenting yet another person's view on the same subject.

There has been one important lesson I have learned from my own journey ... at a specific point in time you will learn that the helping hand you are looking for is attached to your own arm. In other words, look within. That's where your answers lie.

LH

[Manicman]

I have looked within, and have found answers, but even the answers are kind of distressing.

[Litsehimmel]

Let me first of all emphasize that I am not a doctor, therapist, counselor, or anything like that. However, you might try the following:

* find out how much of the distress might be (or might not be) caused by afflictions like bipolar, etc. I.o.w. get any medical reasons for the distress sorted out.

* look at how much, if any, of the distress is left and try to figure out whether the distress is caused by altered insights and/or personal convictions, or whether your believe structure has been upset; then see to what degree you're OK with these having been altered and are willing to accept it.

What I mean to say is that you need to be able to discern between what's really an 'insight' or 'enlightenment', and what is purely medical. Then see how you fare from there. And as for looking for somebody who might be able to lead you through your experiences, all they do and all they are is basically a sound board that you bounce ideas and thoughts off. In the end, the resposibility for any step you take in life is yours.

But you might already be aware of that, of course.

LH

[Manicman]

I'm not mentally or physically ill. I have been to see psychiatrists, doctors, and spiritual counselors. My system has been messed up a bit by archetypal forces, but I am dealing gradually.