Re: Shuar shaman in Sweden

[educatedindian]

Not only that, but virtually every term mentioned by Perruchon is from the Nuage or pseudo shaman movement, "Inka", "drum journey", "Andean shaman" in addition to "energy healing". Also, claiming the Shuar are part of the "Inka" is a mistake a first year secondary student in Latin America would not make.

I did find a review in Spanish of her dissertation. It seemed to be a fairly straightforward discussion of gender roles among the Shuar. But everything she's doing now seems to be entirely unethical. At least in the US, her distortions and false claims and commercialization of what she *claims* are Shuar traditions would make her a pariah. That website is incredibly unethical as well, and *claiming* to give a portion to charity doesn't make up for that.

If you truly are a student of Perruchon, or if you are Perruchon or a follower, my message to you remains the same: You have a severe lack of ethics, and you either don't know or don't care about being truthful about Native traditions.

When you joined this forum, you were supposed to have read the welcome statements, which include you guaranteeing you would not pose as someone else. So we are going to have to insist you prove who you are.

If you are not comfortable stating your name in public, that's understandable. After all, Perruchon did make threats against and harassed Kantuta. So you may contact one of the moderators by private email.

And if you don't answer who you are, we can only draw the logical conclusion: You are Perruchon, and you are so fearful of critics you are out to smear Kantuta's name, much like you earlier threatened her.

[AndreasWinsnes]

After all, Perruchon did make threats against and harassed Kantuta

Do you have any evidence to back up this statement, Al?

But everything she's doing now seems to be entirely unethical.

Yes, from a traditional view point, but not from a New Age perspective.

virtually every term mentioned by Perruchon is from the Nuage or pseudo shaman movement

Perruchon openly admits on her web page that she gives courses in New Age and shamanism, but that is not wrong from a comparativistic perspective.

claiming the Shuar are part of the "Inka" is a mistake a first year secondary student in Latin America would not make

I don't think she claims that. But her husband (or life companion) mixes "Inka" and Shuar. Not my cup of tea, but perfectly alright from the perspective of a new ager.

we can only draw the logical conclusion: You are Perruchon

This conclusion seems a bit hasty.

[educatedindian]

Andreas, read Annika's post.

Perruchon's sole claim to credibility, and the focus of her marketing strategy, is claiming to teach Shuar and "Inka" ways, supposedly traditional ways. Slapping Nuage or shaman or comparative labels doesn't change that.

What she does is unethical from the standards of the profession of anthropology, at least in the US. From my brief contact with anthropologists in Sweden, I saw no evidence they have lower standards. As far as I could tell, they are generally in agreement with Natives on repatriation of remains, protecting sacred sites, and yes, not allowing Nuage distortions or abuse to infiltrate their profession.

I wonder why you are so caught up in defending Perruchon. Did she answer your email?

My demands of her (or "Kanushi") remain the same:
Prove who you are to an administrator.
Answer why a professional anthropologist is engaging in so much unprofessional and unethical behavior.

[Freija]

But everything she's doing now seems to be entirely unethical.

Yes, from a traditional view point, but not from a New Age perspective..

I am not sure I follow you here, Andreas. Do you mean to say that if it is OK from a New Age perspective, then we shouldn´t be bothered about the traditional aspect? In other words, don´t listen to the Indians, at least not the traditionalists?

[Le_Weaponnier]

The clue about whether they were frauds or at least taken in by one: energy healing. ? That is a New Age tenent and practice. ?

There is a great article on "Energy healing" at http://skepdic.com/essays/energyhealing.htm

Energy healing seems to be one of the biggest signs of frauds.


Signs of a Fraud:
1... Charging money for teachings, healings or ceremonies
2... Nudity and or sex being a part of ceremonies
3... Energy healing, Crystal healing
4... Dolphins, unicorns, Atlantis or anything extra-terrestrial
5... Cute names like "Swift Deer"
6... Ceremonies based on "secret societies" or extinct tribes so no one can question them.
7... Affiliations to tribes or people who don't seem know them or of them
8... Mixed ceremonies from different peoples
9... Mixed concepts such as "chakras" with supposed Cherokee ceremonies
10.. Telling everyone the traditionalists are wrong, the NuAgers are right


Did I miss anything?

[AndreasWinsnes]

I have read Annikas posts, and she only writes that:

I don´t have much more info apart from that Kantuta said that Marie Perruchon had done whatever she could to critizise and threaten her.

Perruchon answered my email, and she accused Kantuta of harrasing her, not the other way around. I asked Annika if she knew Kantuta, and she said that she only knew her by mail, so how can one know who tells the truth?

Perruchon's sole claim to credibility, and the focus of her marketing strategy, is claiming to teach Shuar and "Inka" ways, supposedly traditional ways. Slapping Nuage or shaman or comparative labels doesn't change that.

I personally don't like her marketing strategy at all. She uses a mix of "Inka", Shaur and Norse religion, talks about "shamanism", and uses a U.S military invention like the Internet to sell down to earth nature religions. But she has a differnt world view than mine, and I don't have scientific evidence that can prove that her view is wrong. From a new age perspective it is good to mix every tradition, because that makes people focus on the essence instead of beliefs that are relative to cultural and historical settings, so they believe. Viewing things from the religious view point of the person you disagree with, can change a lot.

What she does is unethical from the standards of the profession of anthropology

I agree, but a new ager will believe that new age standards are more important than "narrow minded" Academia.

I wonder why you are so caught up in defending Perruchon.

I am not caught up in defending her. I have already said in another post that:

"How can one be serious when authentic shamans in Evenkia and Buryatia are strongly opposed to persons who use the title "shaman" outside of Tengerism? Perruchon don't give lectures in traditional shamanism, because you have to be a Tengerist to teach the healing arts of the shamans. Tengerists say that talk of shamanism is just as stupid as to talk about priestism and cardinalism. Traditional shamanism has never existed, so how can anyone be "Neo-"?"

Do you mean to say that if it is OK from a New Age perspective, then we shouldn´t be bothered about the traditional aspect?

I don't say that. See the post I mentioned above.

[Barnaby_McEwan]

But everything she's doing now seems to be entirely unethical.

Yes, from a traditional view point, but not from a New Age perspective.

I would suggest that the most common New Age perspective is 'If it feels good, it cannot be unethical.' Obviously NAFPS was founded to combat the damage done by that idea in regard to Native religions. I'm wondering why you're pointing out that Perruchon is unlikely to feel that she's doing anything unethical. I think we probably all assumed that anyway.

[kanushi]

I'm glad to hear that you request evidence for the accusations people post here. That proves that you are serious. I'm looking forward to read the references kantuta gave.

[Freija]

I'm glad to hear that you request evidence for the accusations people post here. That proves that you are serious. I'm looking forward to read the references kantuta gave.

The references Kantuta gave was Marie Perruchon´s own website! It seems like discussing Kantuta is merely a way to divert focus from the real issuie. Anyone could have pointed out that website.

Kantuta wondered how a non-Native woman can travel down to a Native culture in South America and be initiated as a medicinwoman / shaman in two years? She also wondered why Perruchon moved to another country and charged money for ceremonies when this is something real medicinepeople would never do? She also questioned things like "..before and after the drumjourney Mingo can give you energyhealing in a traditional Indian way. 200 kr. (25 USD)" . It´s all on the website.

I don´t see any point in debating what was going on between Perruchon and Kantuta since this is something we will never know anyway. But the questions above are still waiting to be answered.

[educatedindian]

"Kanushi" or Perruchon:

For the THIRD time, let's see your evidence.
Prove who you are by posting your name either publicly or to a moderator.
Or you'll be barred from here.

Whether you are Perruchon or not, you seem to have the same lack of ethics or understanding of evidence.

Andreas, from experience we know that Nuage exploiters claim any criticism at all is "harassment". And Kantuta described threats, something far more serious.

Why not post the email from Perruchon?

Better yet, why not ask Perruchon to send the alleged "harassing" email from Kantuta?
Send it to a moderator. Be sure to include ISPs, date and times and other information that would show it's not fabricated by Perruchon.

Of course if you won't post her email, or she won't send along the allaeged harrassing emails, then we'll all know who to believe.

And if she has any defense for her unethical behavior (by both Native standards and professional anthropology ones) we have yet to hear that too.

[AndreasWinsnes]

"..before and after the drumjourney Mingo can give you energyhealing in a traditional Indian way. 200 kr. (25 USD)" .

Claiming to be traditional when you mix "inka" and Shuar can easily be interpreted as being fraudulent. ? I guess, however, that Mingo believes the method is traditional while the frame and world view is New AGe/"neo-shamanism". But traditionalists will not make a distinction between a religion and a spiritual method. They belong together, so Mingos claim is at the very best misleading and shows a lack of knowledge of the traditions. I agree with Annika that the web page says it all.

I would suggest that the most common New Age perspective is 'If it feels good, it cannot be unethical.'

I don't know what is most common world wide, but New Age as a religion should be taken seriously, and be viewed not only as a "feel good"-phenomena. The basic dogmas in New Age are comparativism - the belief that all religions are essentially the same - and the conviction that each individual shold be allowed to make his or her own spiritual world view. This individualism in not only a sign of egoism, but is a reaction to centuries of traditional, collectivistic repression of the individual. New Age is the first spiritual belief system that put the individual in center, and that has been an important correction to collectivistic traditions, especially Christianity. But this individuality has resulted in exploitation of other religions, probably because new agers feel that they need to borrow authority from the traditions. (A new home made spiritual way created by one individual in 2006 is not very impressive...)

I think it is important to understand that New Age is a religion, in the broadest sense of the word, and not only a set of feelings and confused thoughts, because we are actually seeing a conflict between two different world views. That conflict should be taken seriously, just at the conflict between Islam and Christianity. If New Age had been developed three centuries ago, we would have seen a religious war between followers of New Age and the traditions that they exploit. North American Indians and Siberian Shamans would probably have killed them (and new agers will of course say that this proves that the traditions are out of date.) There may be many new agers that are naive and uncritical, but one should not underestimate one's opponent. ?  

Andreas, from experience we know that Nuage exploiters claim any criticism at all is "harassment". And Kantuta described threats, something far more serious (...)

Of course if you won't post her email ...

The email from Perruchon was private, so I will not post it here, but the harrasment she wrote about was not nice. I have told her about the debate on this forum and asked her to present her arguments, but so far she has not showed up. (But maybe she is on a trip abroad, or something)

[Le_Weaponnier]

Quote:"I think it is important to understand that New Age is a religion, "


If it is, then it's the perfect religion for the 21st century....
Up until now, all religion has been given freely, New Age is being SOLD....

I think in that aspect, it defests the definition of Religion, at least to me....
Selling New Age as religion, seems then the same as selling Honda, Coca-Cola, or Nike as religion....

Believable -yes, worshipped by many -yes

but still empty and devoid of true spirituality

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Can we keep this thread on topic, please? I've started a new one for general discussion of the New Age phenomenon.

[edit]Sorry, I used the wrong link before: it works now.[/edit]

[educatedindian]

Andreas,

"Claiming to be traditional when you mix "inka" and Shuar can easily be interpreted as being fraudulent."

I always tell my students to not trust people who use the passive voice, or otherwise use language to avoid responsibility for actions. It's not a matter of interpretation, it IS fraud.

"I guess, however, that Mingo believes the method is traditional while the frame and world view is New AGe/"neo-shamanism"."

More than that, since we have conflicting evidence showing he knows little of nothing about Shuar traditions.

"But traditionalists will not make a distinction between a religion and a spiritual method."

Not really. we'd say methods can't be lifted out of their cultural context, anymore than baptism or eucharist could be used by Nuagers without angering Christians.

I'll answer your points about Nuage as religion in the other thread.

About Perruchon's email: You seem to want to have it both ways Andreas. If you insist it's strictly private then you shouldn't be using it as "evidence" or describing what was said in it.

Not only that, you go further and say (without being specific) that supposedly far worse things happened.
I'm going to have to insist you not take any more part in Perruchon's campaign to smear Kantuta without proof. At the very least we won't allow it in here anymore.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're simply being very naive or careless to let her use you to further spread rumors, rather than malicious or sharing Perruchon's lack of ethics. I'm deleting all attempts to smear Kantuta unless or until someone shows us hard proof.

And that brings us to "Kanushi" or possibly Perruchon herself. We've given her pletny of time and every opportunity to show us proof of who she is and answer honestly about why she seems to know some amazingly detailed information about Kantuta. She finally emailed me and STILL she ducks the questions, would not say anything more than being a student at Uppsala.

My reply to her:
"Once again, you're ignoring what we've asked you repeatedly.
Prove who you are. Tell me your name. That will be kept private if you wish.
And also tell us how you seem to know quite a lot that only Perruchon could know.
If you don't answer quickly, you'll be banned. All evidence up to this point strongly suggests you are Perruchon and you're doing all you can to spread false rumors without proof, out of fear of being exposed as unethical.
I will give you one day. You've tried our patience repeatedly with your games."

[AndreasWinsnes]

devoid of true spirituality

I think so too.

I always tell my students to not trust people who use the passive voice, or otherwise use language to avoid responsibility for actions. It's not a matter of interpretation, it IS fraud.

I wrote "interpreted" because fraud presuppose conscious intent, but if Mingo believes the method to be traditional, while the frame is new age, then maybe he thought that it was justified to speak of a traditional Indian way/method. It is common in New Age to speak of traditional methods used in a new context, so a follower of that religion may use these words without being consious of how misleading or fraudulent it is from a traditional perspective. But a person who claims to be a Shuar healer should have known that one should not call anything traditional when one mixes religions, so his case does not look good. It is not trustworthy.

About Perruchon's email: You seem to want to have it both ways Andreas. If you insist it's strictly private then you shouldn't be using it as "evidence" or describing what was said in it. ?

Strictly I agree, but it is a difference between telling others in very general terms what a person claims and publishing their mail on the net. I have asked Perruchon to present her arguments here, but as we all know she has not responded.

Not only that, you go further and say (without being specific) that supposedly far worse things happened. I'm going to have to insist you not take any more part in Perruchon's campaign to smear Kantuta without proof. At the very least we won't allow it in here anymore.

I said it was not nice, but did not write that it was "far worse". ? You should know that I don't take part in any campaign to smear Kantuta. I'm just reffering to what Perruchon said, and I am only saying that we can't know for sure who is telling the truth without more evidence. Annika says the same:

"I don´t see any point in debating what was going on between Perruchon and Kantuta since this is something we will never know anyway."

Both Perruchon and Kantuta should publish their mails here if they want to prove that the other is involved in harrasment. And Boba Fett - "spirituality and death" - should certainly present evidence instead of just writing that I am serious. ?

you're simply being very naive or careless to let her use you to further spread rumors

I am not careless, and I am not being used by anyone. I am just saying the obivious: that we so far have a situation where it is words against words without proof from either side.

But Bobba Fett's dodgy answers is a good indication that something is rotten in Sweden.

But even if Perruchon is right when it comes to the accusations, that does not jusify her spiritual practice and Internet marketing from a traditional perspective. And let me, just for the reccord, say that the traditional perspective is my perspective.