First of all: thanks for your words, Praxis.
That was indeed one of the reasons. The nick „4Bears“ may be mistaken for an indigenous person posting. This also leaves much room for further – errrm: interested posters jumping in with the argument: „See? Even the Natives themselves...“.
Not that, as an aside, the nick of „RunningWithIndians“ doesn't equally leave room for interpretation... Just what about this nick gives me the idea it might have been chosen to spite us? (As in: 'If you take exception at me posing as „4Bears“, I'll show you I can come up with more nicks you probably like even less...')
I've suggested that there be a "sticky" at the top of the New Members area, and/or that there be a requirement on the sign-up that a person identify so that new members can be vetted to prove they are or are not NDN before they are allowed to sign up. You have conveniently ignored that I made these suggestions which would probably eliminate non-NDNs from signing up with questionable user names. The forum easily permits members to view a poster's profile, my profile clearly stated that I am not NDN so obviously there was no intent on my part to deceive anyone.
....As far as RunningWith4IndianBears is concerned – congrats. This is the first time someone is whining 'reverse racism' in my direction in this forum. Party-time, folks – all drinks are on me!
I guess you don't know that a lot of NDN people have difficulties with alcohol consumption. One of my dearest friends since childhood nearly died when her drunk husband stabbed her, and recently she lost her son to the ravages of alcohol. Not to mention, my own daughter is half Rappahannock and was born with FAS ... thankfully does not have the worst effects of it. So ... how very thoughtful of you, Ingeborg.
....I also still haven't quite figured out why a person would take exception at the term 'mighty white' while a word like 'honkies' passes by unnoticed. So it is no surprise that you, RW4IB, also don't see a difference between 'speaking up' and 'speaking for'. Calling people on some BS they present is not 'speaking for'.
I also didn't address your term "great white father". I think it was clear what I was objecting to and saw no need to pick up every term you used. The rest of your remarks here don't make sense to me: You had said that I should refrain from making any points on behalf of Praxis ... I simply pointed out that by saying that to me, you yourself were attempting to make a point on behalf of Praxis. I further said that Praxis himself can say so if anything I said offended him, he doesn't need you to make assumptions on his part.
....To clarify matters: as far as I am concerned, Praxis is very well able to speak for himself, and I don't plan to speak for him or any other non-white person. Still, your posts aimed at letting Praxis know that the ndn people objecting the use of medicine plants perhaps don't quite know what they're on about and certainly do not see the 'whole picture', and to hide behind his back when the flak would be going. Such a strategy is dishonest and dishonourable.
I HAD QUESTIONS. What are you smoking, Ingeborg, that you don't understand what I have already clarified more than once??? Maybe it's those party drinks you are slugging down. Excuse MEEEE for asking some questions in an attempt to better understand and clarify things ON THIS THREAD.
....But I agree it may be come in quite convenient to try and discredit white persons pointing to rather – errm: entitled and privileged attitudes as being racist. In fact what I meant to express was that the tactics employed were so easy to see through that even white persons can detect this without even using a white stick, despite us having grown up with lots of privilege and entitledness to blur our view.
Again, I don't know what you are not understanding. I've always taken this site to be a good place in which to learn what and who are causing problems for NDNs. I would have thought that asking some questions in order to clarify the points about Ayahuasca usage was well within the borders of what this site is about. Apparently you don't think so, so why are you here? Accusing me of employing some "tactics" is just ridiculous -- then again, maybe the white people YOU know do things like that.
....You have already been told this site stands for opposing the exploitation of medicine plants by Euros. So what part of „No“ is it you refuse to understand, RW4IB?
My questions had to do with details, Ingeborg. Maybe the problem is this: I spent nearly 20 years working in law (no, not as a lawyer). When it comes to legalities, meanings need to be broken down and spelled out distinctly as much as possible. That's how I approached this discussion, the intent of my questions has been to get the details clarified. For example, I wondered whether Praxis' thought to possibly grow his own Ayahuasca plants would be an acceptable kind of use -- I understood that using this and other such plants as part of "spiritual tourism" is a No, I wasn't sure about the seeds/growth thing. When that was explained, I understood in which way that would also be exploitation, and I didn't have any further question about that.
But I also wanted to know about how the tribes viewed -- or would view -- use of sacred plants if they turn out to have medicinal properties that could benefit the world at large. This was not -- as you seem to think, Ingeborg -- an attempt to "get around" the proscription against Euro use of sacred plants. It was an attempt to clarify something further in that regard.
I have since found this: "The Yurayaco Declaration of the Union de Medicos Indigenas Yageceros de la Amazonia Colombiana (UMIYAC)". I personally feel that a copy of it should be made available on NAFPS as a reference. In this Declaration is the following statements: "We consider yagé, our medicinal plants and our wisdom to be gifts from God and of great benefit for the health of humanity."
And "We are also willing to travel in order to bring the benefits of our medicine to indigenous communities in Colombia and other parts of America upon request. Conscious of the fact that non-Indians also need our services as doctors, we propose the construction of Indigenous Medicine Clinics so they may have easier access and in conditions better suited to the way in which we work, always closely linked to nature." Clearly, the intent of these tribes is to make their medicine available on beyond their own tribes, but they want to do this in a way that fits their traditions and beliefs. This answers my questions. It also refutes claims on this site that these tribes don't want their medicines to be used by anyone but their own people.
... You also seem to have dropped the 'respect' some time ago..., at least you don't sign your posts with this any longer.
I have not always signed my posts with it in the past, either. Nor do most posters here, so what's your point?
... This lack of respect has also blurred your view for the difference between Euro research of medical plants (*medical*) to find remedies with will then be produced synthetically and the abuse of plants by Euro drug peddlers. But the way in which you present the argument in your „what if“ scenery reveals you don't give a flying one about which way a plant may be used by Euros – the main aspect is that it simply must be free for Euros to use as soon as they want it – period. Everything else, like indigenous nations' views, does not matter as long as Euros are allowed to grab whatever they fancy.
I'm sorry that's your take on it. I'm glad I'm not the kind of person who is automatically suspicious of people who have questions.
...It is also mighty white not to be able to see a difference between having been invited to share a ceremony – and feeling entitled to continue its use from that point in time on. Unfortunately, individual Euros were trusted and invited to participate, only to have them return to Europe and pose as pipe keepers, sweatlodge pourers and whatnot, and of course claiming 'authorisation' by ndn medicine persons. If and when my Muslim neighbours are kind enough to invite me to their Id al-Fitr at the end of the Ramadan month, then I've only been invited to share a meal that evening, probably even as a particularly honoured guest. Nothing in the whole effin' world will justify me if I am brazen and entitled enough to pose as a mullah after this invitation.
I agree with you on these points. They don't define "me".
... Well, how could we ever think that threads and sites we recommend may be read even by :gasp: white posters? We're definitely getting uppity, folks...
How much more entitled can one get? 'Awww, they're only providing links for … and … - no need to go there and read' ?!?!?
I did go and read other threads. Frankly, nothing in those discussions answered my actual questions. But I did find a reference to the above-noted Declaration as I was reading further last night, and that was a gem.
Also, I sought another point of view on the whole matter and talked with a close Apache friend of mine about this. He and his family are well-respected on the reservation, he's worked on behalf of his people his entire adult life and has several times been a spokesperson and resource for the tribe in various ways. Of course, he knows me well, so he knows where I am truly "coming from" with questions. It's a funny thing, he's always expressed appreciation of the fact that I DO ASK questions and don't just jump to conclusions, and that I DO WANT to know the fine details on the subjects he is allowed to discuss. His first reaction when I explained the issue here and the obfuscation I was encountering, was to laugh and say this: "Well, you know, we are Apaches. Historically, if someone had horses and we wanted them, we just took them. If they wanted to keep the horses, they had to fight for it, and I doubt our people were the only tribes who traditionally saw things that way."
