E. P. Grondine

[Keely]

Well EP Grondine, I keep laughing over your hysterical mistakes... I wish to point out to you the biggest mistake you have written...

You wrote: "Ben, the reason why the Loyal Shawnee received that name from the colonists was because they did not join with Tecumseh. For this they received "reservations" which were then taken from them and they were sent to Kansas, and from there to the Cherokee's lands."

This is so funny... first of all, there are direct descendants of Tecumseh in the Loyal Shawnee, secondly, we are no longer called the Loyal, but MOST IMPORTANTLY, the Loyal Shawnee got their name because THEY FOUGHT FOR THE UNION DURING THE CIVIL WAR! The colonists had NOTHING to do with the name Loyal Shawnee!

You claim your a historian? Oh that's like you claim you are 1/8th Shawnee too! LMAO it is all a fantasy in your mind!

You keep bringing my name up, I sure hope you do not have a "thang" for me, because I find you rather repulsive.

There is no way you have had your DNA checked and it came back as having Shawnee blood BECAUSE there is no Shawnee DNA data base. The Shawnee people have NOT shared our DNA for study.

Don't like Sam or I getting after Jack Blosser? Too bad for you, because Jack Blosser is a fake and a liar!

http://ancestorstealing.blogspot.com/2015/06/jack-blosser-genealogy.html

Don't like Sam's blog? Then stop going there to read it. You should be careful, or Sam might decide to dedicate a blog writing all about you! He even has a picture of you that was shared with me! Not that Sam is really interested in blogging about you, I must say, Diana has done a great job in her research!

Your family can be researched into the 1600's and 1500's that alone says you are not Indian...

Twigg has never been a Shawnee surname.. in fact, I do know of a Twigg Indian person, but they are Lakota... and her name was Fairy Twigg... oh wait again, Twigg was her husbands name and he was a white guy...

So you find this name "Twigg" and make up a story that the name is "Bent Twigg"... now thats some pretty funny stuff Ed!

This group you are so fond of, "Lower Mekoce Shawnee" which is a group of fakes, it is really strange that it does not seem like a one of you know anything about the real Mekoce... but what you have accomplished is to really piss of the true Mekoce in many ways... I certainly am not gong to educate you on what Mekoce is, that's not my place.

You like to harp on this issue that you have diabetes and having strokes... Strokes are common with people who have diabetes, however, it si NOT a sign that you are Indian...  After all, you said you have a black ancestor too, maybe it came from those DNA genetics... and though I really do not care if you have a Black ancestor, I am curious as to why you are not out there telling people how Black you are.. why don't you go over to the Descendants of Slaves boards and tell them of how Black you are? Tell them what their history is? Tell them you are some kind of "historian" and "journalist" about the Black people and their history... lets hear about your family from Africa.. Oh let me guess who that ancestor was... t Kunta Kintay?

[Keely]

gee my old friend Keely has not been on this site for along time,

Waving at Earthw7  Thanks! Had not been on in a long time... funny how these fakes work so hard to get attention then whine when it happens

Hope you are well!!

[Keely]

Oh and BTW Ed, your story about your live in nurse friend being upset with things being said to you on the internet... cry to someone else... If issues on the internet are upsetting you so much, get off the internet! Problem solved! Because no matter how much you get upset with myself,  Ben, Diane or the others who have told you that you are a fake upset you so much, that is your issue to deal with. As for me, my issue will always be the truth, standing up for my ancestors, stopping your kind of twisted history and lies.

You know the saying, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!

Trying to "win" in your lies by giving health issues is pretty lame...

[earthw7]

Hi Keely good to see you post and thanks for all the work you do for your people

[Keely]

Next item - it appears that people of "distant native ancestry" were not the only people conned by Jerry Pope.

It has been reported to me by several sources that the former leadership of the Eastern Band bought land in Ohio near Zane's Caverns with the intention of setting up a casino there.

I have not checked the land records yet to see if this is so, but.. it seems likely...
of course, no one like to admit that they have been played by a conman, and often their memories if events are changed with time. Thus one always has to check the legal records.

This belongs in the appropriate thread. Let's stay on topic, and also provide proof.

For what it's worth, Grondine did send me scans of his press passes issued to him by NASA. I have no reason to doubt they are real.

The Eastern Band of Shawnee did indeed purchase land in Ohio, though it is not near the Zane Caverns. There is NO plan to set up a casino that I know of. The land they purchased is a well known piece of property that has great historical value to all the Shawnee tribes.

As for the ID issue, I have seen more than my share of faked ID's... and Ed's is of no interest to me.

[Keely]

Hi Keely good to see you post and thanks for all the work you do for your people

Thank you Earth, and to you as well

Been so long since I was here, I had a heck of a time remembering how to post!

[Keely]

Regarding this person's supposed or non-existent NDN ancestry, this thread is going nowhere.
I have no reason to defend either side, for the reasons that I am not related to the histories and tribes in question, and E.P. does not seem to be a new-age fraud, but rather a history writer who may be making dubious claims of his background. Its just getting silly, people post his ancestry records, and he keeps stating he is 1/8 without addressing the records.
Well, maybe somebody would take the claim more serious if he would list which ancestor was supposedly Native. Then somebody could check or debunk the claim of that specific ancestor too (who's probably already been listed in the records shown here). There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a person of distant ancestry and learning about your ancestors' cultures. But someone with verified NDN ancestry in one of their lines can tell you exactly what family member came from which tribe and when.
Just sayin, repeating 'I am 1/8th' without any real info like a mantra isn't really much different from repeating 'my grampa was a cherokee princess and thats all there is to it!'. Not much of an argument there.

Perhaps I should explain what is important about this issue that we are dealing with.

First, keep in mind, our 2nd Chief of the Shawnee, Ben Barnes, has been insulted by Ed Grondine. This is never acceptable.

For many years our tribe has been dealing with these kind of people. At one time, years ago, a fake in Florida had written a book that he claimed was the "traditional ways of the Shawnee" in this book, he wrote "the Shawnee believe that sex with children is good for them, the sooner they are started having sex, the better"  Now, I shouldn't have to explain that this is simply not true. Some people who read it did believe it, and many of us Shawnee's were attacked because of this misinformation about our people.

These people take a little bit of truth in OUR history, and they twist it to suit their needs.

They have gotten into our ceremonies, hidden recorders, and recorded sacred songs... they go back to places like Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana, Virginia, and they try to make their own ceremony...

Now they do the "pow wow" thing... I watched a video where women are wearing Halloween costumes and dancing... When WE offered to come and teach the right way, we were told WE ARE NOT WELCOMED! At one time, some were threatened with arrest if they showed up at a PUBLIC event...

These people are worse than the "redskin" fans who dress up in mockery.

Now these people make up their own "tribes" and are making money speaking and trying to represent Indian people. They are claiming 501c status so they do not have to pay taxes, and they write for grants intended for Indian people... They are getting these grants! They are taking money that is intended to go to Indian tribes! That should irk every Indian out there!

This Jack Blosser that Grondine is saying he does not like being attacked... Well, Grondine does not know it, and has no way to know it because he does NOT know about Shawnee people, our customs, our families, our values, but little does Jack Blosser realize, with his ignorance, he has claimed a family... he has laid claim to a family of Shawnee people and he is NOT from that family... and is that family pissed? Oh yes they are!

These fakes are getting jobs by claiming to be something they are not. Jobs that are intended for real Indian people are being taken by non Indians, and to support their claims, they put on stupid costumes and claim it to be "traditional" then put a drum together who god only knows what the heck it is they are singing...

Will we stand up and be vocal and fight them? Yes we ARE! We are not going to continue to sit back and let these injustices happen to our ancestors. We are not going to let these people continue with their insults to our children and grandchildren.

We are just one of several tribes who has began to stand up against these people... Others are welcomed to join the fight, but no one will get in our way.

[Keely]

Still talking as if he's Native. LOL I'm so glad he was unbanned.

He's talking gibberish! Does anyone know what he's talking about? Maybe he's having another stroke.

@EP Grondine,  if you can't refute the records and write a coherent sentence maybe you should leave this forum.  We've proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're white and "you" yourself unwittingly provided us with proof that you are not a published author or are peer reviewed. Nor are you a historian, regurgitating irrelevant pieces of history that you did not write does not make you an historian.

Be happy with who you are. You have a very impressive ancestry, your lineage goes all the way back to colonial times. You have done your family a grave disservice by denying who you are. Shame on you. Your family deserves better.

Thank you Diana!

Sure wish there was a like button here

[Keely]

Next item - it appears that people of "distant native ancestry" were not the only people conned by Jerry Pope.

It has been reported to me by several sources that the former leadership of the Eastern Band bought land in Ohio near Zane's Caverns with the intention of setting up a casino there.

I have not checked the land records yet to see if this is so, but.. it seems likely...
of course, no one like to admit that they have been played by a conman, and often their memories if events are changed with time. Thus one always has to check the legal records.

This belongs in the appropriate thread. Let's stay on topic, and also provide proof.

For what it's worth, Grondine did send me scans of his press passes issued to him by NASA. I have no reason to doubt they are real.

PS Jerry Pope died back in May... the future we hope that his group now falls apart... rumor has it that the lands are in hawk up to its neck, and could be sold or auctioned off...

[Defend the Sacred]

Grondine sent me his genealogy research and asked it be posted.
-------
...
'"There are descendants of "Fleetfoot" John and Ruth (Farmer) Twigg who, to
this day believe they are Indian.  There are just as many believe Ruth was the daughter
of John or Elias Farmer of Bedford Co. PA.  Neither has been proven or disproven.'

So, still no proof, just family stories and personal belief, mixed in with all sorts of racist stereotypes about Natives (admitted, historical records by white people are full of those; as far as we know Grondine didn't write the bits with sexual/racial slurs, but without seeing the actual documents we don't know that), and the same likelihood as before that the dark-eyed, dark-haired people were runaway slaves - Africans.

[Diana]

Just to let everyone know,  I already provided the links to those stories and the ancestry on page 3. Here are the links again. Dr. Al, EP Grondine did not look up those stories or ancestry,  they were already posted on the web and by me. Also I read the story of the blue eyed and black eyed family members back when i first posted the links. It's on the links I provided. Also,  Mr. Grondine conveniently left out the part where his family has a good chuckle over the story as just a family story and no one has been able to prove it.

Everyone needs to stop playing into this poor old white man's delusions. It's mean.


http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mdallegh/Twiggtown.html
www.twiggtown.org
www.twiggtown.net

[educatedindian]

Just to let everyone know,  I already provided the links to those stories and the ancestry on page 3. Here are the links again. Dr. Al, EP Grondine did not look up those stories or ancestry,  they were already posted on the web and by me. Also I read the story of the blue eyed and black eyed family members back when i first posted the links. It's on the links I provided. Also,  Mr. Grondine conveniently left out the part where his family has a good chuckle over the story as just a family story and no one has been able to prove it.

Everyone needs to stop playing into this poor old white man's delusions. It's mean.

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mdallegh/Twiggtown.html
www.twiggtown.org
www.twiggtown.net

True enough. It's also true that Grondine is not an exploiter of the type we go after. No cult, no exploitation for money or ceremony selling. There's a reason he's remained under Research.

We need to take care we don't become like the Indianz.com forum, going after people who just kidded themselves. We've made a distinction before between those who are deluded, and those who are conscious exploiters. That hasn't been done with this thread. Certainly the "screaming" all caps title should never have been allowed, and I changed that.

[benbarnes]

I'd also like to mention that keely's attack on Jack Blosser and the Fort Ancient Celebration is far beyond the pales.

While the CNO may have trouble with people of Native ancestry mixed with African American ancestry,
they will always be welcomed at the Celebration,
just as they always have been.

I am coming to the party late. I dont get to monitor EPG and his inaccuracies much. As for Fort Ancient, that pan-indian, non-native interpretation of what these folks thinks Natives are like, does no service to the builders of the Ohio mounds.

This appropriation and display of pan-indian ideas by non-natives and hosted by non-natives is the same as an 1890s minstrel show.

And the group to which Jack Blosser belongs, the Lower Eastern Mekoce of Ohio and WV is a 501c3 and not a tribe. They made this thing up latching onto an old division name. Which personally pisses me off, as I am a Mekoce descendant. These folks are complete and utter bullshit with no historical or documented ties to the Shawnee. In fact, the opposite is true. I have yet to find a single leader from one of these fake Shawnee Tribes that does not trace back to a European immigrant.

[benbarnes]

Well, now that everyone is here.

I as much as I am historian, was a journalist, and am of 1/8 shawnee descent.

And that I have never claimed to be a spiritual guide

And that the people who usually shout at me are spiritual thieves who concoct
fake histories, but now I find you shoutring at me in an effort to thrown doubt on the traditional histories about the Andaste and Shawnee...

The Colonists policy of conquest has been to diviide and conquer.
Thus people within the Ohio Historical Society has been leading other native
peoples into claiming Shawnee remains in Ohio.

If you look back here, you can find my discussion with Oestriecher about his version of both Shawnee and Lenape histories- in particular his claim that the Lenape medewak did not exist, and his version of Shawnee history.

Ostreicher's work has been funded by Lenape cassino interests for years.

So when the manger of the Lenape casino in Oklahoma shows up and tells me that the Loyal recieved that name because they were loyal to the union in the Civil War. And when Brad Lepper seeks Lenape support for the Ohio Historical Society, and promotes the Lenape memory of a "white road", at the same timeworking his hardest to concoct fake native history on the dime of the people of Ohio...

Let us start by examining the Sioux claims. They are based on the Siouxian tribes who lived back east at the time of European contact. for the southern Siouxian tribes, Catawba and Saponi, their arrival was remembered by the Cherokee.
For the Monocan, the difference between Lenape and Shawnee remains are quite well known to the archaeologists of western Maryland, who know them as Monongahela Late Woodlands and Keyser Late Woodlands respectively.

The Sioux (mengwe in Lenape, any other people later used to describe the mingo, mostly members of other nations who were fleeing the colonists such as Chief Logan) who accompanied them are shown by the catlinite flat disk pipes. The documentation of these in easwtern Ohio may be found in Bob Converse's book "The Archaeology of Ohio" a book which Mr. Lepper plagiarized from (either intentionally or inadvertently) and then suppressed.

The Brad Lepper you talk about here is bullshit. I know Brad Lepper. He's not pandering to fake Lenape.

[benbarnes]

As to how the Loyal Band received their name, it was because they did not support Tecumseh in his effort.

They were rewarded with "reservatons" in Ohio, which were later taken from them under Jackson and they were sent to Kansas

The land in Kansas was taken from them following Lincoln's Homesteading act, and they were given Cherokee lands in Oklahoma.

I suspect that those Cherokee were being punished for supporting the Conderacy during the Cicil War, but that is something that I have not looked at in depth.

More errors: The Loyal name came after removal to Kansas. There is no historical documentation to suggest that name came into being in Ohio. It was a result of our loyalty to the Union during the civil war. Not that we were good little patriots, but because that is who conscripted us. At this point in our history we were the "Kansas Shawnees" and only became the Loyal after the civil war, and during our removal to Oklahoma.

I do however think you are right about the punishment to the Cherokees for their role in the civil war, but that has not been firmly established in my opinion.