Tiospaye Durango, MakingRelatives.org, Della Romero

[Piff]

Do they use catharsis, whipping people up into emotional breakdowns?

Do they get people to spill way too much personal information? To subtly work against each other while angling to obey the leaders?

Is there much content that seems "Native American" or is is that just a superficial lure? Do participants believe they are learning secrets?

Openly challenging them must have been quite the experience.

[Water]

Yes they do all that. Yes it was hard, I was labeled difficult, mentally violent, and uncoachable. While the owner is Lakota, I don’t find her very traditional, outside of the program name, and symbolism. Her program is just a spin off from another. Similar to MITT, and Landmark.

[Piff]

I really appreciate you sharing your experience with us.

Do they have specific targets like college students, midlife, people in transition? Does their popularity seem to be increasing?

Do these apply?:

    Control of communication
    Emotional and behavioral manipulation
    Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology
    Obsessive demands for confession
    Agreement that the ideology is faultless
    Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought
    Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine
    Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect

(Lifton's reform environment themes https://culteducation.com/brainwashing8.html)

Have you seen any danger signs, other than the fact that these types of trainings are abusive and especially unsafe for some people - as in any signs of stalking, hacking, whisper campaigns, isolating people from families and friends?

Any ideas on how to shed more light on them?

[Water]

You are isolated, as you are not supposed to speak about the program, only to enroll people into their vision. The trainer, assumes total control from minute one. You cannot do anything without permission, speak, use the restroom, chew gum, alter your mind in any way. Our trainers were psychologists, and psychology is heavily used, manipulatively. In my opinion, though I can’t prove it I’d say a NLP, and a type of hypnotic affect as well. Level one and two breaks you down with catharsis, used for trauma bonding. They humiliate you, I was not allowed to use the restroom when I started my menstrual cycle. In level one they teach there is a million ways to do things, but by leadership there is only one way, and it’s their way. They want you speaking in a certain way, using certain speak. If you call them out, it’s not really them you’re upset with, it’s yourself. There is no integrity, as they cannot walk their talk, no accountability, and no transparency. They are persistent with trying to enroll people, or get them to the next level. 

[Piff]

I am so sorry you went through this abuse. This is appalling.

This sounds like a toxic blend of classic large group awareness training and destructive cultic group.

Is this all rotating around one leader?

As psychologists they know how to influence people, guide them. So in this case they are using their skills for outright profit, power and evil. NLP type techniques, salesmanship, trauma bonding, hypnotism, lulling and redirecting - sounds like they are using it all.

All of this is classic, including "If you call them out, it’s not really them you’re upset with, it’s yourself." I hate that shit and we see it often here in the fraudsters we research.

Do you know if any complaints have been filed like with the Better Business Bureau or health licensing board?

[Water]

I don’t know, I didn’t. I Only know of one other participant who feels traumatized too, and she didn’t  either. Most everyone idolizes the program, as saving them, feeling they have been spiritually transformed, and enlightened. It was suggested, they suffer from stockholm syndrome. Even I have found it difficult to speak out about it. I don’t hate them, they were manipulated too, and I believe they are saving people, but they are choosing willful ignorance. They are a non profit, I’m not sure how that works for filing a complaint.

[Water]

There are many senior coaches (previous participants) , the captains (owners), and usually two-three trainers. They have a board that includes some coaches, and usually one will facilitate the current training, though I had all three of the owners facilitate during mine.

[Water]

*They believe they are saving people, I don’t, that was a typing error.

[Piff]

I definitely understand the difficulty in speaking out.

I'll start looking around tomorrow for ideas on where complaints could go.

And honestly, I believe talking this over here on the forum, online, goes a long way to increase understanding of this group.

[Water]

I demanded a refund for Leadership, through a loophole I got it, and they didn’t want bad press in a small town. Though, with my check they insinuated I wasn’t committed to transformation, and needed physiological help. Before that they were saying how powerful I was, up until I started calling them out, and holding them accountable. It was the hardest thing I’ve ever been through, but I learned a lot about corruption, manipulation, and how to stand up for myself.

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Della M Romero was licensed in Colorado as a Certified Addiction Counselor II, License ACB.0003869, expired 01/07/2010.

Then licensed as Certified Addiction Counselor III, License ACC.0006878, expired 08/31/2017.

Search here: https://apps.colorado.gov/dora/licensing/Lookup/LicenseLookup.aspx

There is a file a complaint option on that site. Might be worth doing.

Della M Romero says she is a massage therapist. She does not seem to be licensed in Colorado. She needs to not practice until she is licensed. https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/dora/Massage_Therapy

File a complaint: https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/dora/DPO_File_Complaint

Romero claims this: "and an MA in family therapy with emphasis on Youth at Risk"  http://makingrelatives.org/about-us-2/ - but that is almost meaningless without more information and proper licensing.

I notice that this group is now going after teens: http://makingrelatives.org/teen-tio/

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An impressionable friend of mine has been posting about his “transformation” with Tiospaye. He is now talking about moving there (Durango, CO) and my info is limited. He is being preyed upon - does anyone have any stories or info I can share with him?

Hey there,

I have family members that have attended these events.

    My wife:

Super weird! She was not "allowed" to tell me what happened as Level 1, part of me wanted to go just to get the details but was afraid of possible brainwashing (can anyone really say they are immune? we are weak minded beings) still to this day will not tell me the "activities" that went on. She came back mindlessly quoting phrases. She wants to go back for L2 even after I shared with her the concept of LGAT and she basically just brushed it off. "Its not exactly like that, similar but WAY, way different." (yeah ok) She also had some sexual abuse in her past and came out with concept like "its my fault" (WTF?)

    Wife's Mother

She is the one that got my wife involved and has done ALL the levels, keeps flying there at HUGE cost because "If you dont come back now the negative positive effects are going to wear off not hold and you will snap out of it lose your newfound skills" After attending all levels she has gone back twice to be a "trainer" basically giving them free hands while constantly trying to recruit and donating money.

Every single problem can be solved by attending according to them. My wife was doing a weird power play for a while too, citing "you need to go to strengthen our bond"; "couples that go are very close and I want that for us"; "why wont you just go to L1, if you at least tried..."

Luckily the mother ran out of money and the availability to keep going (but still stays in contact, ugh) and my wife only ended up attending to L2 and then had to take a hiatus so it seems to have worn off for now, not for lack of them hounding her and calling her weekly for "guilt=trips check-ins."

https://www.reddit.com/r/lgat/comments/8czety/tiospaye/

[Water]

Yes, I called Della out in leadership because she is not a psychologist, and they are using psychology, with no accountability. They are causing damage, but hide behind their waver. I tried telling them, spirituality is not for sale, but they cannot here me.

[Water]

*hear me

[Water]

It’s not ok with me, I tried standing up, I tried telling my group but they couldn’t hear me. I tried.