hello I'm Joyce Elizabeth

[elizabeth]

Thank you for accepting me. I have read a great deal of the material here and I am interested in being an effective ally. I am of Irish Celtic descent. I was raised progressive catholic and what my father taught me is we are descended  from Druids. I did not wish to remain catholic and began a search for something more at age 9. I found the writings of  Sybil. Leek. My journey took me through many stages to arrive where I am. I did have some study regarding native American spirituality when I was searching for my own identity and yes, I fell for some of the information listed in your fraud section. So I arrive here now ready to learn and help if possible.
Thank You, Joyce

[Defend the Sacred]

Fáilte, Joyce,

You do understand that the draoithe were the professional class of the ancient Irish - doctors and lawyers and such, not just clergy - so anyone with Irish ancestry could actually make that claim, right? (Even though it's rather grandiose.) It's not the nuage lie that exploiters tell about druids being "shamans". And that Sybil Leek had nothing to do with anything Celtic, but rather wrote about witchcraft, yes?

One of the important things for non-Natives here to do is learn the lies non-Natives tell to disguise their misappropriations, in order to recognize them and help stop exploiters when they try to use bogus claims of things like "Celtic" to disguise their thefts. Since non-Natives see the lies the appropriators tell when no Indians are around, there's a need for non-Natives to post links to sources like this forum when appropriators promote themselves and spread misinformation.

[elizabeth]

Thank you, yes the Druids are the professional or educated class, not many people realize that and assume it was just the priesthood. Very few are aware their where great learning centers in Ireland as well though most is lost to history.
Yes Sybil. Leek writings are on witchcraft. My searching and studies began with what my father taught me of our heritage, he died when I was 7, and expanded through   spiritualist  practice, some excursions into study of eastern philosophy finally as an adult back to Celtics Wicca or Witch. I use Wiccan  to describe my religious beliefs. I do not care for being lumped under the umbrella of Pagan but it really is not a Hugh issue. I am comfortable being referee to as any of these. There are pieces of ancient Celtics belief that can be gleamed from and experiential growth can come from that base.
So that where I am coming from. And I will continue to get information from the forums to continue my growth and hopefully help with your mission as well.
Also please note I am dyslexic , if something I write does not make since.
Thank you, in love and light, joyce

[Defend the Sacred]

OK, but Wicca is thoroughly neopagan. There is no more Celtic content in it than there is pretendian. Gardner et al stole as much from Indians as he did from Celtic cultures, and most of what he took was just some words here and there.

We have a lot of threads that talk about why Wicca isn't Celtic, and a number of members, myself included, who are involved in the living Celtic cultures as well as familiar with the Wiccan, newage and hippie scenes. We have members here who live in the Celtic nations and practice the traditional ways, and we have a grandmother here who knew Sybil Leek, oddly enough (which still doesn't make Sybil Celtic. They just happened to live in the same building.)

Here's one of the threads: http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=3687.0 Talking to Wiccans about Cultural Appropriation

[elizabeth]

If I remember correctly I believe Mrs Leek is Russian? Not of issue to me. She was the first author I read.  My heritage is Celtic. I will read your suggested posts. I have read some and I will tell you there are many of us that have nothing to do with Gardner. We are everywhere. The religion of Wicca and most Witches I associate with do not care for Mr Gardners work. Wiccan is the name of the legal recognized religion in the United states and that is why I use it when talking to those who are not familiar with the belief system. Though their are druids in my circle I am not one and prefer the term Witch.

[RedRightHand]

Hi. Sybil Leek was English. Wicca started in England in the 1940s. Please don't try to educate people here about Wicca or witchcraft. Witchcraft is not an acceptable part of traditional Native or Celtic cultures. It's not an appropriate topic for this forum and your information about it is incorrect. You may have been taught this misinformation by people who really did not know any better, but traditional people do know better. This is not a place to post "alternative facts."

"Heritage" does not convey cultural knowledge.

I'm going to say what the admins usually remind people to do: Please read the pinned threads in the various sections. This is a forum where the core, long-term members know what they are talking about when it comes to traditional cultures - and not just Native American and First Nations ones - we have diverse people here, including elders. This is not the place to argue 101 stuff. It is a working group for stopping appropriation. Misinformation about Wicca is off-topic.

[elizabeth]

I agree and I was responding to questions I was asked. I do not wish to continue a conversation about my personal beliefs or path. I requested to join the forum to learn and assist if possible. I do not wish to be lumped together with others you may have come in contact with either.
Thank you, Joyce

[Smart Mule]

Hi Joyce,

Sybil used to live above where my mom worked. She was British, Gardnerian, and paved the way for a lot of problematic people who came out of the greater Boston area, one grandiose individual in particular. Sybil, Wicca and the whole neoplaygan pseudo Celtic movement is harmful to the living Celtic cultures.

You labeled yourself as wiccan and a witch so I'm not sure how you expect us to react aside from an educational standpoint. Wicca is a 20th century creation and witch is not the romantic "oh the burning times I'm an 8th generation hereditary" myth that people feed those with no historical footing.

[elizabeth]

I find myself at a loss as to why anyone would want to educate me on my own spiral path but OK I'll play along. After all I come here requesting to learn. I have done some research trying with living Celtic culture , modern Celtic culture, modern celts, , and I am not finding how I am causing harm to Celtic people. Pleaded advise.
I went back to the source, the coves of the new Forrest and apparently Gardener was initiated by them he did not form them or event them or anything else. There are mixed messages as to how folks feel about Gardner or Leek.
Mrs Leek was born in England and does have Russian and Irish ancestors per her own claim.

[Smart Mule]

Wow. Well. New Forest was an offshoot of the Order of Woodcraft Chivalry which was like the boy scouts in Great Britian. The Boy Scouts. There was nothing remotely authentic about it 

Sybil was English. I knew her in person. She was a wackadoo. She was born and raised in England and nothing about her was culturally Russian or Irish.

You state you came here to learn but you are being rather abrasive about it. Our mod Defend the Sacred is very much involved with living Celtic culture as well as traditions that have been maintained. I'm sure it is in no way your intent, however promoting woowoo neopaganism does indeed harm living culture. It's no different than the pretendians promoting made up performative craziness as authentic. Pageantry doesn't make something real nor does the fact that it's written in a book.

[Defend the Sacred]

I find myself at a loss as to why anyone would want to educate me on my own spiral path

You sound like you believe you can just make stuff up and that makes it "yours" and somehow valid.  That's not how real cultures function. That's how newage frauds, plastic shamans, and people who play make-believe think. You speak like a newage fantasist.

but OK I'll play along.

We're not "playing."

After all I come here requesting to learn.

It's not clear what you want to learn. All you've done is be insulting to those who've tried to help you stop spreading misinformation. Those who spread ahistorical fantasies like you are doing just look like fools to actual ceremonial people and cultural preservationists.

You said you wanted to learn to be an ally. You can't be anyone's ally if when you spread false history, and are corrected, you respond with defensiveness, insults, and then just double down on the silly misinformation. You need to learn how to interact with respect and humility ("honor and humility, truth and compassion", eh?). If you can't accept when you've made mistakes, and then correct those mistakes and make amends for them, you will never be able to work with those from other cultures to undo the harm people like you have done.

This is your last warning about this behaviour before we take away your posting access.

I have done some research trying with living Celtic culture , modern Celtic culture, modern celts, , and I am not finding how I am causing harm to Celtic people. Pleaded advise.

Then clearly you didn't look very deeply, or even read the links provided on this forum. No one is here to be your private, unpaid tutor. We can't force you to understand if you are so invested in your self-aggrandizing fantasies that you will reject historical fact and the lived experience of the traditional people you insult.

[elizabeth]

I do sincerely apologize to anyone who feels I have Been abrasive. I have felt some of you who have responded to me have been abrasive as well. No matter though it is not my intention to have come here to be insulting to anyone.
Thank you

[wolfhawaii]

Hello  Joyce, hope you are not turned away by the "welcome".....never piss off the "priest/priestesses of the world or they will drown you.

[Smart Mule]

Priests/priestesses? I'm pretty sure Joyce was the only wiccan posting in the thread.