Scarlet Kinney & The Standing Bear Center For Shamanic Studies

[Keguseno]

Here’s my two bits


Scarlett – you’re not going to get any validation on this site.  See it’s not really about you, your experience or your path.  Your experience – lets say it had happened to someone within a tribal community.  It might have been interpreted in a spiritual way by elders (or not).  They may have supported that person to take the next steps – and then sat back and watched what they did with that.  Step by step.  Year by year.  Responsibility by responsibility.  No certificate or authorization.  Just life.  And maybe, one day, that person would harness that power for the people.  Maybe.  

And maybe you had a real spiritual experience.  But what makes people cynical and even hostile is that the experience by itself confers no rights or authority.  Lots of people have had genuine spiritual experiences but nothing – nothing at all – can replace the hard work of doing your practice and serving the people.  It’s a life-long commitment.  New Age shamanism annoys people because it mostly promises the supposed rewards without the hard work, the community responsibility, the sacrifice, the accountability.   It looks like the latest fad - a way for non-native people to explore eco-spirituality while taking on all the things they fantasize being native is “really??? about – without having to deal with real people, real historical injustice.  It looks like the latest face of a 125 year romantic tradition of appropriating native identities and traditions – while the killing goes on.  And it looks like a con job because lots of people involved in it have exaggerated their credentials and because it seems deeply irresponsible to most medicine people.  It’s incomprehensible that someone who really was a “shaman??? would encourage others – for money – to do this.  It’s the hardest of paths and it chooses us – it is not for us to choose it.  So when you take on the label of “shaman??? these days – whatever your intentions -  it comes with a lot of baggage.  To the point that for many people new age shaman = fraud.  Period.  

So you can be right and still be wrong at the same time.  Sure the medicine wheel can be understood as a map of human consciousness – Albert Lighting and the late Phil Lane Sr. used to explain it that way.  But they were reaching out from deep within the tradition to help others understand.  From a non-tribal depth psychology perspective it’s a circle that is being used as a metaphoric map  - that seems to you to have similarities to what you’ve read/heard about the medicine wheel.  But to explore that link you have to go sit with one of the old ones –and before you bother them with a bunch of annoying questions, make yourself useful for while.  A decade’s a good start.

Same with the pay to pray thing.  Take George Tinker – whose book is favorably reviewed on this site.  A powerful community activist standing up against exploitation?  Yes.  And he’s a part Osage priest who makes a very good living teaching – among other things – Lakota spirituality to non-native people (and it doesn’t get any more pay to pray than Iliff School of Theology where it costs $25,000/yr to study).  He thinks Russell Means is an elder!!  He recognizes Ward Churchill as a Ketoowah Cherokee.  Anyone else would be in the Fraud section.  (Come to think of it…).  But he’s in the community and he’s on the front lines.  

What is so sad is that the medicine is free – it always has been.  The payment is your commitment, your honesty, your humility, your service.  I’ve seen tears come to the eyes of the old ones when they heard about it being sold.  What is so deeply offensive about charging for it is that it commodifies the heart of the culture – the heart of a spiritual covenant.  When this is deeply understood, all of the excuses for charging become trivial and self-serving.

Sorry for the long post

[Scarlet Kinney]

Keguseno, thank you for your post. So far everything you've said on here leaves room for discussion, and I greatly appreciate that. I really liked what you had to say about the possibility of the term genetic memory being the same as what Native Americans call ancestral memory. It's something I'd enjoy discussing more with you. Please feel free to write to me at the email address associated with my teaching center if you'd like to share your thoughts on this with me.


I have realized that I'll get no validation on this site. I would welcome any comments you might want to offer that you feel would contribute to such a discussion.

I'm in a very difficult position, both within my own culture and with some Native Americans as well. although I do have some friends in the Maine tribes. I did not seek power, it sought me, and trying to honor it is my only agenda, if one could call it that. My experience was real, and I've spent nearly 15 years integrating it. My teacher helped me survive the first few years, which were very difficult for me. Nobody in my culture could help me, and I don't belong to a tribal culture in which somebody might have recognized what happened and been willing to support or guide me through the most difficult part of it.

I fully understand that what I'm doing is a life-long committment, and I share your concerns about the new age instant shaman insanity. Nobody in their right mind would consciously seek to go through what I've gone through, physically, psychologically, or socially. And I'm still going through it, as evidenced by what's going on on this site.

You tend to come up with very balanced and insightful comments, and I appreciate your comments about the medicine wheel, as well as about the historical injustice Native peoples have suffered. While my teacher was not an "old one", she did introduce me to the medicine wheel as a living, sacred space, and she taught me to enter and work within that space. ? My work with it is not metaphorical in any sense of the word.

As I work mostly with people from white culture, initially I need to explain concepts and make comparisons in ways that they can intellectually take in. The first battle is to get the white brain to shut off, so that the teachings can be transmitted orally and psychically.

I was shocked to hear that some people are paying $25,000 per year to receive Native teachings! My students, all three of them, pay $2500 a year for the first three levels of training. There is no charge for additional training. And I pay my one advanced student for helping me teach. I have to charge something because of the enormous amount of time that goes into my work. My sister, who's a crackerjack business woman, once looked at my books and informed me that I was earning around $3.41 per hour, when time and out-of-pocket expenses were factored in!
My expenses for maintaining the center run close to $40,000 a year. So I also work very hard as an artist and writer to try and make up the difference.

In an ideal world, I would not have to struggle financially to hold onto my property, etc. But this is far from an ideal world. I do hope that at some point I will have earned enough money by other means to be able to teach people without charging them. In the meantime, I can't see that any purpose would be served by my committing financial suicide.

If you have any ideas about how I can accomplish my goal of not needing to charge students for my time, I would very much appreciate hearing what they are.

[Barnaby_McEwan]

I was shocked to hear that some people are paying $25,000 per year to receive Native teachings!

You misunderstand, again: they're theology students, training in a Methodist seminary. Tinker's not teaching them newage tosh about 'sacred spaces' so they can feel spiritual: they're learning, for example, about the communal values exemplified by the two Lakota brothers who killed uncegila.

Or they're learning about

"Kettle Carriers in the Osage War Ceremony"
Dr. Tink Tinker will present his research on "Kettle Carriers," a role reserved for gay men in the traditional Osage ceremony to prepare for conflict.
Sponsored by: Flame & Students of Color
Time: Noon - 1:30 p.m.
Location: Great Hall, Iliff School of Theology
Cost: None

[Barnaby_McEwan]

Off topic replies have been moved to [link=http://www.newagefraud.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1144013304]This Thread[/link]

[educatedindian]

"Keguseno, thank you for your post. So far everything you've said on here leaves room for discussion"

Oh boy, talk about denial.

His exact words to you were "[your] experience by itself confers no rights or authority."

Followed by "What is so deeply offensive about charging for it is that it commodifies the heart of the culture – the heart of a spiritual covenant. ? When this is deeply understood, all of the excuses for charging become trivial and self-serving."

He basically told you that you were wrong, period. His EXACT words were that your lame excuses are "trivial and self serving". At best you are misguided because of the experience you went through. And yet you somehow still grasp at straws that what you do might be OK somewhere, sometime, under some vague still yet to be named conditions.

In essense, he told you to get over yourself and spend time ("a decade, say") making yourself useful befoe you could ever hope to begin learning the right way.
In all the posts you've made here, the only time you went into deeper denial was in still believing Ohky Forest somehow might be telling the truth, that she really is a Mohawk-who-didnt-grow-up-on-the-reserve-yet-somehow-learned-every-Mohawk-spiritual-secret-in-two-years (yet doesn't even remember the names of her alleged teachers, and says they wouldn't remember her) and mixes it with Mayan and "Mongolian" (which is an ethnicity, not a belief) alleged ways. Oh, and even though nothing she teaches resembles either Mohawk or Mayan beliefs, but vague generic Nuage nonsense.

"If you have any ideas about how I can accomplish my goal of not needing to charge students for my time, I would very much appreciate hearing what they are."

Simple: DONT CHARGE.

If what you have to say has any value, they'll voluntarily GIVE you what you need to live.

And knock off spending 40 grand a year on your shame-on business. How could you possibly, *ever* supposedly "need" to spend that much? Who are you trying to kid? ?

No Native elder spends 40 grand a year, no Catholic priest does (or is supposed to), no Buddhist monk, nobody except cult leaders or the crassest televangelist snake oil salesman posing as a Christian minister makes that kind of money. If you spend that much, then you're simply an extravagant, frivolous, and materialistic hustler posing as spiritual.

BTW, anyone thinking Tinker gets wealthy from tuition is mistaken. Most professors get paid only slightly better than high school teachers. 25,000 is also about typical for a private university, sadly.

Albert Lightning's teachings have been badly abused by frauds, and defenders of tradition have some words on the subject that are relevant to a white woman who fell for an alienated alleged Mohawk posing as a teacher of "Mayan Mongolian wisdom."
http://www.ammsa.com/buffalospirit/February-2000/adviceonpowwowtrail.html#anchor1511973
"An individual living in the city or away from his people for most of his life may not be the best person to provide a young person with traditional knowledge....Tradition has deep roots and can be based on rights or on years of service to the people....
Be careful of false leaders and pseudo-medicine men that charge money for their services, especially of those that take money before the ceremony even starts. To all faiths throughout the world, including those that are Native, consider money as the 'root of all evil.'
One piece of advice my late uncle would repeat every time I left home, was:
"Never try to be something you're not..."

[SLK]

It's Scarlet Kinney...I was unable to get on with my former ID since you've updated the site.

I am withdrawing from this forum. With the exception of a few rational people on this site, I find your ethics to be deplorable; your agenda to be so fundamentalist and your behavior to be a disgrace to the people and culture you try to protect.

Attempting to reach some kind of understanding with you has been a very toxic experience for me, so much so that whatever respect I may initially have had for your work has turned into an impression of a group of people so deeply mired in their own pain it appears there is no hope for redemption.

You have done exactly what I knew you would do regarding my teacher, which is why I didn't want to disclose her name. I have contacted her to warn her about what's going on here.

I want to go on record as having realized, as a result of attempting to reach some degree of understanding with you, that whatever conflicts I may have had with Ohky were nothing whatsoever, mere spats, when compared to the depth and violence of the abuse you people have directed at me.

I do not respect you or your work and I never will. You have made such a bad impression on me that I am walking straight out of this mess and I will not look back. I will continue my own work and I will help any other people who have also been wrongly maligned and abused by you, if I possibly can. So do your worst. As for me, I'm walking a differnt path than you are, and I'm done with all of you.

[educatedindian]

"I find your ethics to be deplorable"

Let's see if I follow your bizarre anti-logic: we protect people from abusers and habitual liars like yourself, and we have "deplorable ethics"?

"your agenda to be so fundamentalist"

Yep, here it comes: Demanding NDNs live up to your Nuage fantasies.

"your behavior to be a disgrace to the people and culture you try to protect."

One more time: a white racist trying to define what NDNs should be.  
 
"Attempting to reach some kind of understanding with you"

You haven't "attempted" any kind of understanding; you've DEMANDED repeatedly that we shut up and accept your falsehoods.

"it appears there is no hope for redemption."

Wait a minute; now you sound like a fundamentalist.  
 
"You have done exactly what I knew you would do regarding my teacher, which is why I didn't want to disclose her name."

Yes, I'm sure you knew, on some level, that she was a fraud. But you didn't want your fantasy disturbed.

"I have contacted her to warn her about what's going on here."

Excellent. I hope she comes here. Exploiters tend to hang themselves with their own words, as she did on Indianz.com.  
 
"whatever conflicts I may have had with Ohky were nothing whatsoever, mere spats, when compared to the depth and violence of the abuse you people have directed at me."

Anyone else hear violins?

Anyone else amused at the irony of an exploiter always playing the victim?
 
"I am walking straight out of this mess and I will not look back."

Is that a promise? Hope so.

"I will help any other people who have also been wrongly maligned and abused by you"

In other words, you will defend abusers by claiming they are being abused by the Natives THEY have wronged.

That's about as bizarre as it gets.

The good side is that a lot of your followers have made their way here, judging by the high number of guests. So you may be losing followers, who have wised up to your deceptions.

[Mo]

http://www.thestandingbear.com/treeoflife.htm

this is interesting. from an introduction of a book by scarlet kinney. she claims to not teach native spirituality yet says this...(hang on its a tricky ride)

"Forest also encourages white people to take on the ancestral blame rightly belonging to their forefathers, an undertaking that I reject, for several reasons. On a personal level, I believe in reincarnation. I have remembered more than one life in which I myself was Native American, and I have strong connections with Native American ancestral spirits who guide and teach me. To then assume blame for what my white ancestors may or may not have personally done to Native Americans several generations ago, and attempt to make it up to a contemporary member of that race as a condition of relationship, becomes a very tricky and dangerous psychospiritual stance. In that particular scenario, given my memories of past lives, I would be perceiving myself as both victim and perpetrator of the same crime. To take on such a convoluted position would necessarily put me- or anybody else foolish enough to do so- at serious risk of being exploited in any number of ways by those insisting that I personally accept blame for and atone for the history of my entire race."


and this part is amusing considering her demands made here...

"In more general terms, I think it's unwise and psychologically unsound to enter into any relationship in which the first condition of relationship is that you must accept blame for something, and especially for something that you did not ? personally do. This creates a gross imbalance of power and respect between the parties involved. Furthermore, making another person wrong is always the first step taken by an abusive person who wishes to gain some type of "power over" another human being."

and again some good advice yet she fails to see how it can also stand as a warning about herself...

"To anyone considering apprenticing to a Native American or to a shamanic teacher of any race, I urge you to exercise extreme caution and critical judgment about the character, ethical stance, possible hidden agendas, and camouflaged personal issues the teacher may be struggling with before you make either a financial or an emotional committment to the person. "

[StealsThunder]

http://www.thestandingbear.com/treeoflife.htm

this is interesting. from an introduction of a book by scarlet kinney. she claims to not teach native spirituality yet says this...(hang on its a tricky ride)

"I was led to Ohky Semine Forest, the metis teacher I studied with because I first dreamed about her. "



Now it's changed. First Mohawk, now "Metis". Of course, it falls into the standard trap of the definition of the word "Metis". This is the most common:

"Prior to Canada's crystallization as a nation in west central North America, the Métis people emerged out of the relations of Indian women and European men. While the initial offspring of these Indian and European unions were individuals who possessed mixed ancestry, the gradual establishment of distinct Métis communities, outside of Indian and European cultures and settlements, as well, as, the subsequent intermarriages between Métis women and Métis men, resulted in the genesis of a new Aboriginal people - the Métis."

However, many people, especially whites, automatically assume that "Metis" is a catch-all phrase that means "Indian/White Mix". No, the metis have a pretty distinct culture, and this Oakey Forrest woman is NOT Metis. She may have some native blood somewhere in her family tree (giving the benefit of the doubt) but that does not automatically make her "Metis". Not by the legal canadian definition, nor by the definition of most First Nations people in Canada.

Just another example of someone who has no real clue what she's talking about, but desperately trying to gain some sort of credibility by sounding like she does. Sigh...

[Ingeborg]

I have remembered more than one life in which I myself was Native American, and I have strong connections with Native American ancestral spirits who guide and teach me.[/b] To then assume blame for what my white ancestors may or may not have personally done to Native Americans several generations ago, and attempt to make it up to a contemporary member of that race as a condition of relationship, becomes a very tricky and dangerous psychospiritual stance. In that particular scenario, given my memories of past lives, I would be perceiving myself as both victim and perpetrator of the same crime. To take on such a convoluted position would necessarily put me- or anybody else foolish enough to do so- at serious risk of being exploited in any number of ways by those insisting that I personally accept blame for and atone for the history of my entire race."

Thanks for the quotes from SK's site. This line of argumentation is racist in several respects: SK exculpates white persons by telling them, same as her, they probably were ndn in former lives; and having been ndns before means they cannot be 'guilty'. At the same time, she puts this guilt on ndns, because they were white in former lives. Foul is fair and fair is foul - and miraculously, white persons end up in a great situation: neither guilty (thnx to having been ndn in former existence) and neither white&privileged (c.f. before). This basically boils down to her saying: 'WE are still the better ndns, duh - we always were and always will be, double-duh'. And the minor rest that remains is easily shrugged of by "what my white ancestors [if any] may or may not have personally done..." (and for all I know, and care to know, they done nothing!).

This line of argumentation also serves very well as an excuse for not paying all that much attention to ndn life etc TODAY - hey, they bin WHITE in former lives, so THEY caused their today's plight, whatever it may be, all by themselves!! Treaties broken -you did that all by yourself in former lives. Land stolen - cf above. Unfavourable treaties - you negotiated them yourself and guess at what end of the table you were sitting. It also means that SK is telling ndns to stop whining because...

This is far worse than 'just' turning victims into culprits and vice versa. It's the perpetuation of racist attitude while at the same time telling the racists there is absolutely no need to worry and it's all okay the way things are in the best of worlds. Okay, so her theory might inflict a hardship or two on hardcore racists: (whisper) they were ndn in former lives. What is worse: white persons who still might feel it appropriate to think about ndn issues occasionally are encouraged, no rather urged to forget about it. It's not necessary - it's even unhealthy for your precious self. They only want you to accept blames, they're not asking for treaty rights or whatever.

And before I forget about this: it is also the most excellent way to insist on ndns sharing their traditions and religions with 'us' - it IS our rightful heritage because we were ndn when you were - what? Yup, white. (Hey, come to think of it - all these Wanabis going on about their GGgrandfather having been an ndn princess - guess what: according to SK they are right to the point!) So while my ancestors were the innocent ndn victims slaughtered mercilessly while the west was won, your ancestors were what??? White slaughtering b******.

This is the perversion of history, of present time, of future.
Forgive my cynicism, but please do pass me the bucket.

[Ric_Richardson]

Tansi;

This latest bit of "flexibility" of Ohki Forrest now being "Metis" is one of the common features of some New Age Frauds.  While she claims to be First Nations, but without being registered, now she is Metis, but I would imagine she is not registered in this manner, either.

The Metis people still have communities, which are predominantly Metis, such as the one that I live in.

It is unfortunate that many Aboriginal Cultural names are misused in order to confer some form of "credibility" to those who wish to abuse our Cultures.

Ekosi
Ric

[educatedindian]

Kinney just can't help revealing herself repeatedly in that last link.

"whether or not we like it, in today's world, money is the most valuable form of compensation that can ? be offered in exchange for services received."

LOL! Oh really? I doubt you'd find a single elder, or for that matter most Christian clergy, to agree to that one.

"There was nobody in my culture who knew what was wrong with me"

Nonsense. Any good shrink could've helped you.

"I paid whatever she asked for her personal guidance and workshops, and used my own resources to sponsor and advertise her initial teaching visits to Maine. Over time, this amounted to a great deal of money and by the time the relationship ended, I was in dire financial straits."

In other words, she squeezed you for every penny, but you're still in denial about her being an exploiter.

"because of the trauma I had experienced, I was unable to engage in productive left-brain thinking at the time. I could not understand or ascribe meaning to numbers or money, for example. Another result of the trauma I experienced during my intitiation was that I could not exercise any control over the outflow of my energy during those first few years after the event, including energy expressed as money."

That's a touchy-feely Nuage way of saying you were traumatized and Forest hustled you for every penny she could.

"To teachers struggling to heal their own cultural or personal wounds, I would suggest that they focus a great deal of energy on that healing ? before attempting to teach anybody else."

That's advice she herself should take to heart. All she's doing now is continuing the cycle of abuse.

"If, however, you experience any of the following symptoms during an encounter with a potential teacher, or any other person, you should consider that you have entered a danger zone, and you should exercise extreme caution regarding continuing the contact:
1. You are left feeling frightened, guilty, inadequate, diminished, or wrong in some vague way after talking with the person;
2. You feel "high" or somehow seduced by the person's charismatic personality;
3. You feel confused after reading materials the person has written, or after attending a workshop or having a private session with the person;
4. An attempt is made to convince you that you have some special gift or talent that could or should be directed towards helping the teacher carry out a messianic agenda of some kind."

Wait a minute. In her own words, every single one of those applies to what she went through with her exploiter, Forest.

[Le_Weaponnier]

Quote:""because of the trauma I had experienced, I was unable to engage in productive left-brain thinking at the time. I could not understand or ascribe meaning to numbers or money, for example. Another result of the trauma I experienced during my intitiation was that I could not exercise any control over the outflow of my energy during those first few years after the event, including energy expressed as money."

Isn't the left brain the side that handles LOGICAL thinking?

[educatedindian]

The latest on Kinney, with a "puberty ceremony for all ages". Exploiting children, or just gullible women who feel badly about their childhood?
----
From: "Scarlet Kinney" <scarlet@thestandingbear.com>
> Subject: Annual Shamanic Foundations Intensive
> Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:11:07 -0400
> Shamanic Foundations Intensive
> on the Maine Coast in Surry
> at The Standing Bear Center for Shamanic Studies
> AUGUST 11 - 14, 2006
> The Standing Bear's annual Shamanic Foundations Intensive for women focuses on the meaning of the Center position on the Medicine Wheel Mandala, the place of psychological balance and stability.
> The archetypal energies, or "medicines" found at the Center of the Medicine wheel Mandala include Sea Turtle and the ancient Sea Turtle Goddess. During the Intensive you learn how to contact them and seek guidance from them that you can use in your everyday life in the ordinary world.
> All workshops include shamanic drumming, singing, movement, Medicine Wheel experiences and meditative visualization and journeying.
 You participate in a Shamanic Puberty Ceremony for women of all ages, a Shamanic Goddess Council, and a Sea Turtle Incubation Ceremony.
> You also participate in the presentation of a shamanic storytelling event about Sea Turtle medicine, "The Stone Heart Turtle People".

>Schedule of Events
 Friday, August 11, 7-10 pm~ Introductory Talk and
 Drumming Workshop: $45
> Saturday, August 12, 11am - 9pm~ Introduction to the
> Medicine Wheel Mandala & Shamanic Goddess Archetypes; Shamanic Goddess
> Council: $150
> Sunday, August 13, 11am - 10pm~ Sea Turtle Medicine & The Ancient Sea Turtle Goddess;
> Sea Turtle Incubation Ceremony;
> Rehearsal & Performance of "The Stone Heart Turtle People" a shamanic storytelling event $165
> Monday, August 14: 11am - 9 pm~ The nature of
> Shamanic Healing Ritual & Ceremony;
> Puberty Ceremony for Women of all Ages: $150
> Reduced Cost for Entire Intensive: $425 ¨
> Pre-registration with $150 deposit

[Slow_Thunder]

To Al Carroll: You have gone way over the top this time, Al, in terms of slanderous remarks about the puberty ceremony I offer this summer. You have either misread what I wrote about the puberty ceremony, or have deliberately left out one all important word that is part of my announcement about the ceremony: WOMEN. I offer a puberty ceremony for WOMEN of all ages, not for children, fool.

As for why I do so, it's none of your business, as you're a male, and thus are excluded from participating in and not allowed to even have any opinion about such women's ways...unless or until you show proper respect and ask in the right way to learn them. If you grew up in a matriarchal culture as you claim, then you KNOW this, so I can only conclude that your remarks are not simply misguided, but racist as well.

You need to try and understand that in treating me with such arrogant disrespect as you have demonstrated in your most recent posting about me, you are also demonstrating an arrogant disrespect towards two things that all Native American cultures hold sacred: Mother Earth, and the Great Bear Spirit.

In attacking and slandering me personally on your web site, you are in fact also attacking and slandering Mother Earth herself, because like all women of all races, I am a physical manifestation of Mother Earth and as such deserve to be shown the same level of respect any conscious Native American would show Her.

In attacking my work and labeling it as fraudulent, you are in fact also attacking and labeling the Great Bear Spirit, who chose to call and train me to do this work, as fraudulent. I should not have to remind you that such behavior is not only reckless and ill-considered; it is also grotesquely disrespectful of the very traditions you claim you are trying to protect.

I suggest that you take the time to read what Medicine Chief Weylin LightEagle, a fully apprenticed Bear Medicine Man, has to say on the subject, which is posted on my web site, www.thestandingbear.com, and that you take it to heart. He is right.

Rather than slandering people like me, you and others like you would do better to spend your time, energy and money supporting and preserving the lives and work of people like him, who are struggling in poverty to keep, honor and offer to others the sacred spiritual teachings and ceremonies of your cultures, which are fast disappearing from the Earth....instead, you run about like rabid dogs, blindly attacking and abusing others while leaving people like Weylin to fend for themselves however they can.  Shame on you!